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RAND Reports

Steve Pace

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I didn't know that the RAND think tank designed aircraft...
 

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XP67_Moonbat

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IIRC, that's on Dan Raymer's page. Here we go!

http://www.aircraftdesign.com/dpr93mediumbomber.gif

Moonbat
 

Michel Van

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Rand is the strategic Thinktank of U.S.

they work also on future Aircraft design
 

PNorwood

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Michael Van,

Were they always involved in this particular field, or just recently?
 

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PNorwood said:
Were they always involved in this particular field, or just recently?

The RAND Corporation (which is an acronym for Research ANd Development) is a non-profit think tank that was started in 1946 by Donald Douglas Sr., the visionary founder and CEO of Douglas Aircraft. Its main location was (and still is) a couple miles away from the old Douglas Aircraft plant at Clover Field, Santa Monica, California.

Thanks to its founder, RAND was involved in shaping military aircraft designs from the beginning. This quickly caused a conflict of interest, when a 1949-50 RAND study recommended turboprop powerplants over pure turbojets for large strategic bombers, a design that happened to fit the Douglas proposal for the B-52 (Douglas Model 1211). Donald Douglas left RAND, but his brainchild went on to advise the U.S. armed forces throughout the cold war, proposing little-known aircraft designs along the way.

RAND studies have now diversified into anything you can think of, and, while still mostly paid for by U.S. taxpayers, serves other countries as well.
 

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coach46

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XB-70 Guy said:
I didn't know that the RAND think tank designed aircraft...

The RAND study reminds me of another black Aircraft from the 90tieth, called “the Artichoke” by stealth-watcher Steve Douglass (see pic)
or Northrop Grumman YF-113G.

Northrop Grumman YF-113G
There have been sightings of an aircraft with a trailing edge comprised of many triangular "teeth" in the South-Western USA during 1993 and 1994. It has been suggested that the unusual shape of the trailing edge might help in reducing engine sound and heat emissions. The two-seat plane is 20 to 50 percent larger than the F-117 and can carry a larger payload. The aircraft is thought to be a stealthy, more capa-ble replacement for the F-111 strike aircraft. The aircraft may be designated YF-113G and have made its first flight between May 1994 and July 1996. Possible operational bases include Tonopah AFB in Ne-vada, Cannon AFB in New Mexico, and Langley AFB in Virginia.

Source: http://personal.inet.fi/cool/foxfour/black/aircraft.html
 

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Meteorit

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WARNING: the designation and operation speculations are badly outdated.
Also, I personally don't think this "Artichoke" actually existed. The sightings could have been misidentified F-117s (or, maybe, even other black projects).

coach46 said:
The RAND study reminds me of another black Aircraft from the 90tieth, called “the Artichoke” by stealth-watcher Steve Douglass (see pic)
or Northrop Grumman YF-113G.

Northrop Grumman YF-113G
There have been sightings of an aircraft with a trailing edge comprised of many triangular "teeth" in the South-Western USA during 1993 and 1994. It has been suggested that the unusual shape of the trailing edge might help in reducing engine sound and heat emissions. The two-seat plane is 20 to 50 percent larger than the F-117 and can carry a larger payload. The aircraft is thought to be a stealthy, more capa-ble replacement for the F-111 strike aircraft. The aircraft may be designated YF-113G and have made its first flight between May 1994 and July 1996. Possible operational bases include Tonopah AFB in Ne-vada, Cannon AFB in New Mexico, and Langley AFB in Virginia.

Source: http://personal.inet.fi/cool/foxfour/black/aircraft.html
 

Skybolt

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RAND routinely "designed" aircrafts, at least parametrically, everything from heavy bombers to cargos. AFAIK, few of those design were ever drafted in graphical form, at least in unclassified reports. I can remember only of one instance (a submarine launched penetrator), besides the designs Dan Raymer did for them in the 80-90s. They also evaluted design done by others. For example, the LAMP project from Northrop and Lockheed were evaluated by them, too, besides ARDC.
 

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Merv_P said:
There's a RAND monograph (downloadable PDF) with a Douglas Raymer design for an F-35 class fighter here

This should read Dan Raymer, not Douglas Raymer...
 

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Stargazer2006 said:
Merv_P said:
There's a RAND monograph (downloadable PDF) with a Douglas Raymer design for an F-35 class fighter here

This should read Dan Raymer, not Douglas Raymer...

Thank you; now corrected.
 

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Fascinating insight into early orbital mechanics! The Douglas rocket in Part 3, Page 76 looks a lot like the old, Douglas-sponsored "Rocket-to-the-Moon" ride at Disneyland...
 

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Skybolt

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Should go in the Space section, but, anyway, RAND consulted NASA in the very early years of a number of subjects. They did for example a study on very heavy launchers (Nova-like) in 1961-62. Unfortunately, the report is not in the RAND database on-line (and so it is not orderable).
 

Skybolt

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Being more accurate:

"An Analysis of Future Large Launching Systems,'' Contract
No. NAS8-5023, Report No. RM-3501, Rand Corporation
March 1963, CONFIDENTIAL.
 

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...And let us not forget RAND's Harvey P. Lynn, who as the "cousin" of one Eugene Wesley Roddenberry, contributed immensely towards providing a fledgling TV series called Star Trek a degree of scientific accuracy and plausibility that no other Sci-Fi TV series - save for Men In Space and the Disney/Von Braun specials - came anywhere close to equaling. And he got $50 per episode as a consultant for the first season, which funded a purchase Lynn himself had predicted would result from the show's airing: he went out and bought his family their first color TV.
 

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Re: RAND Bomber

The elusive RAND Aircraft Model G-2 flying wing bomber, from a report listed on eBay this week.
 

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hesham

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Hi,


that drawing looks like a Northrop design.
 

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hesham said:
Hi,


that drawing looks like a Northrop design.

What's interesting is that the distribution list is for Lockheed Engineers. I know they keep up, if possible, on what their competitors are doing, but it's kind of cool to see it listed on the cover.

Edit: OK, since it's Rand it's not proprietary information. So, was the report originally done by Northrop, because it does look like one of their turbo-prop designs, or was it just a Rand study obviously based off of those designs? I also see that it was addressed to Lockheed Martin, but the first thing I noticed were Johnson's and Hibbard's names.
 

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Hi All!


Maybe, one of possible competitors of the B-52?


RAND Aircraft Model G-2--- Item number on Ebay?
 

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nugo said:
Maybe, one of possible competitors of the B-52?


Quite likely, given the dates.

eBay item 290852830508 (only $450.00 -- get it before it's too late).
 

hesham

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My dear Sundog,


I know that design was from Lockheed,but I want to say,there is a resemble
design from Northrop like it,and that's what I meant.
 

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Steve Pace

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Its a RAND (ex-Douglas Engineers) design.
C.L. 'Kelly' Johnson, P.A. 'Phil' Colman, Eugene C. 'Gene' Frost, Willis Hawkins, and Hall Hibbard are all Lockheed personalities. -SP
 

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Steve Pace said:
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Its a RAND (ex-Douglas Engineers) design.
C.L. 'Kelly' Johnson, P.A. 'Phil' Colman, Eugene C. 'Gene' Frost, Willis Hawkins, and Hall Hibbard are all Lockheed personalities. -SP

The RAND Corporation is, to this day, a think tank. At the time, the vast majority of RAND studies were funded by the U.S. Government and made available to any private U.S. industry who could benefit from them. These G-2 reports happened to be addressed to Lockheed engineers, but were made available to everyone for the asking, including Northrop.

RAND designs did, however, retain their RAND designations when submitted to military competitions. NACA (and later, NASA) studies were also in the public domain, such as SCAT designs a decade later, which jump-started private SST development from all manufacturers.

To better understand the origins of this technology commonwealth, one must look no further back than WWII, where designs were shared with, and often built by, direct competitors. The priority given to national interests allowed the U.S. to build history's most powerful industrial base in less than 3-1/2 years, without quarterly worries about shareholder profits. Today, even the most insignificant trade secrets are protected by armies of lawyers at the contractor level and bureaucratic red tape (ITAR, etc.) from the government side.

This might partially explain why the current gestation period for new aircraft is often a decade or more.
 

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hesham said:
My dear Sundog,


I know that design was from Lockheed,but I want to say,there is a resemble
design from Northrop like it,and that's what I meant.

Yes, I understood that and I agree with you. :)
 

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Steve Pace said:
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Its a RAND (ex-Douglas Engineers) design.
C.L. 'Kelly' Johnson, P.A. 'Phil' Colman, Eugene C. 'Gene' Frost, Willis Hawkins, and Hall Hibbard are all Lockheed personalities. -SP

Indeed they are. Those are the names of the engineers on the distribution list to receive the report. The letter is addressed to someone at Lockheed, probably the person who requested the copy of the design study in the first place, from the Rand corporation. Those are the names of the people the design study is supposed to go to for reference. Or, more correctly, the correction to the previous report. ;)
 

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Re: RAND Bomber

Orionblamblam said:
circle-5 said:
The elusive RAND Aircraft Model G-2 flying wing bomber, from a report listed on eBay this week.

FYI... the report is now in safe hands.

I hope you didn't have to pay $450.00. I know you're a rich American capitalist, but still...
 
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