RAF with TSR2 etc: But what Fighters?

If you tote both collision course and persuite course weapons, then you have at least two chances at taking down the attacking aircraft. The latter is highly marginal, but if you can force the attacker to manouver and loose speed during the head on engagement, then the stern chase stands a decent chance. Get them down to mach 0.95 and the odds are in favour of the mach 2 fighter.

If you have four of each type of weapon, then it leaves you a fair chance of two such interceptions while in the air, assuming you have enough fuel.

But the critical issue is detection range of the threat. 200nm is not enough for a mach2 turbojet fighter. AEW is the key to solving this.

No wonder they where looking at long range missiles, like mounting CF.299. Extend the ranges, expand the envelope.
 
I reawaken this thread firstly to give a definitive answer to its original question, that is that the fighters for the RAF in the 1970s were to be the Lightning to about 1977 followed by a variable geometry type that became AFVG, from Mr Healeys own mouth:

'M. Messmer, the French Minister for he Armed Forces, the then Minister of Aviation, and I signed the original Memorandum of Understanding to study a variable geometry combat aircraft together on 17th May, 1965, just over two years ago. At this time, the French were Interested only in the strike rôle, and we envisaged the aircraft as a replacement for the Lightnings as an interceptor. The French wanted the aircraft in 1974, we in 1977.'*

A year later when we met on 6th May, 1966, the British Government had decided to take an option on the minimum number of F111s required to replace the Canberra against more sophisticated targets and to shift the Vulcans into the tactical/strike/reconnaissance rôle against the less well defended targets up to 1975. This gave us both the money and the operational opportunity which enabled us to develop the variable geometry aircraft as the French originally1050wished, for strike—to replace the Vulcans and later the Buccaneers in the latter 'seventies.

Meanwhile, however, the French had begun to put greater emphasis than before on the aircraft's interceptor performance. An operational requirement for the new aircraft in this mixture of rôles had been already agreed by the military staffs of the two countries.
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This is backed up (to some extent) by Air Marshall Sir Douglas Morris AOC-in-C Fighter Command who stated in 1964 that he expected the lightning to have a lifespan of 7-10 years (the F.3 was then entering service, F.6 was entering service in 1966) and that a study group was already working on the Lightning replacement within the MoA. The Air Marshall himself said that he felt that variable geometry and STOL would be required.^

Now I also have a question to which I have not been able to find an answer, according to ‘Watching the Skies’ by Jack Gough, RAF planning in 1960 was for 12 Lightning squadrons with 8 to be based in the UK and 4 overseas. Obviously, at some point this shrank to 9 squadrons, what I have not been able to establish is when this cut to the fighter fleet plan was made. I have found a tantalizing hint from Mr Healey again:

‘The major cancellations of aircraft contracts since 1st November, 1964, have been in respect of the TSR2, the P1154 and the HS681. There have also been some reductions in the total number of Lightning aircraft on order.’*
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Does anybody know when these reductions to Lightning orders or squadron numbers were made?

* http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/...d-royal-air-force#S5CV0750P0_19670713_HOC_376
^ http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1964/1964 - 2055.html
* http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/...cts-cancellations#S5CV0725P0_19660310_CWA_114

To put the originally planned in-service dates all in place for a bit more context:

1965: TSR-2 (Headed towards 1970 at cancellation)
1968: P.1154 (1970-71 at cancellation)
1968/late 60s: AW.681 (stated in 1963, seems to have slipped to 1970 by 1964)
1973-4: Jaguar Trainer (Entered service in 1974 in the strike role- Hawk, HS.1182, became the trainer entering service in 1976)
1977: Lightning replacement (All except two squadrons replaced by Phantom 1974-77, last two squadrons replaced by Tornado 1987-88)
 
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I would be fantastically wary of individual public quotes from politicians regarding defence plans - they are often confused and/or downright wrong. If you can find them saying much the same thing on multiple occasions, then it's worth considering!
 
Hang on.


Assuming this is correct, when did this change come about?


Because we are told by alertken
What the new Govt. inherited, 10/64, to replace RAFG Lightning F.2A, Akrotiti/Tengah/UK F.6 was a plan for 175 straight J79 F-4D.
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Yet now a minister is saying something different, AFVG to replace Lightning in May '65 (5/65).


Air Marshall is saying a 'study group' in '64? VG is favoured?
Well hardly a surprise that latter bit, since it tallies with the RN side of things.


However if the decision was the F4 by Oct '64 can we say if this is the result of that study?


Yet by May next year its thrown out? In favour of the AFVG?
Which will be later, and cost more.
 
zen said:
However if the decision was the F4 by Oct '64 can we say if this is the result of that study?

Yet by May next year its thrown out? In favour of the AFVG?
Which will be later, and cost more.
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Wasn't the new Labour government enthusiastic about European defense collaboration? Might be all that is needed to explain it.
 
I am grateful to the various contributors to this thread for coming up with so much interesting info.

I was interested to see confirmed that TSR 2 at the change of government was limited to East of Suez rather than the SACEUR operational theatre role mentioned in Peter Hennessy. Also that P1154 was seen as a way of deploying US NATO assigned tactical nukes.

I had also always taken AFVG to be a Buccaneer/Canberra replacement for Europe (F111s were East of Suez only). It is also interesting to speculate on the arm twisting required to get the RAF to give up F4Ds in favour of a paper Anglo French project.

We really need a Prof Eric Grove to give the RAF a through going over in this period.
 
Does rather raise a what if question about those F4Ds as it would exert quite an influence on other decisions if carried through.


Indeed if one adds in the RN order, it raises other questions. After all you don't really need the F4K for the CVA-01 type carrier.


Do we know for certain the RAF had their arm twisted?
 
JFC Fuller said:
Numbers,

Jack Gough, 'Watching the Skys' has the 1958 review as the year of annihilation for the SAM force. He states,

Bloodhound; original order 800 missiles, cut to 300 by the 1958 review
Thunderbird; 150 missiles approved in June 1957 but cut back to 60 in early 1958

Bloodhound organisation was as follows, the 800 missile order would give 18 fire units, 2 fire units would be deployed to each site. Each fire unit consisted of one launch control post, two yellow river directors, and 18 missiles on launchers. There would be 8 reserve missiles at each site. However, I think Gough actually means 18 sites, not fire units, as the maths just does not work otherwise.

18 x 20 = 360
36 x 20 = 720 and that would give your 700 launchers, give or take

How your numbers tie with Gough I just dont know at this stage.
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I increasingly suspect that getting to the bottom of this particular jumble of numbers may well be impossible as it seems like the planned composition of a Bloodhound Squadron changed considerably. The first site at North Coates was built with 48 launch pads, apparently for 3 x 16 launcher squadrons (I suspect the Gough plan is a derivation of this) but later this evolved into 1 squadron consisting of 32 launchers. Using Google Earth, online photos and recollections I have found a range of configurations:

48 Launch pads: North Coates

36 Launch pads: West Raynam

32 Launch pads: Breighton, Marham, Finninley, Woolfox Lodge, Rattlesden, Dunholme Lodge, Watton, Carnaby, Warboys, Butterworth

16 Launch pads: Wyton, Barkston Heath

12 Launch pads: Wattisham, Bawdsley

There were many others, the point is that whilst the majority of sites do seem to conform to the 32 launcher paradigm there are exceptions, I would also caution against taking the 16 and 12 pad sites for granted as it is possible that there were other pads at those sites which have since been lost or that I am too ill-informed to identify.
 
As regards Bloodhound numbers, number of launchers doesn't equal number of missiles as the missiles had to be serviced and if a missile is fired the launcher can be reloaded. Actual number of operational Bloodhound Mk 1 fire units was 22 at 11 sites (North Coates did have 3 fire units but only two were operational at any one time, the third being used for trials work). thus each site had 32 operational launchers which gave a total of 352 ready to fire missiles. On top of this each site held 8 spare missiles and its own missile servicing section that allowed missiles to be swapped over for scheduled and defect servicing. Thus total is now 440. a minimum of 150 missiles was added to this total to allow trials firings for ECM tests and modification work not done during the service acceptance trials in 1958-60 at Woomera and also provide a replacement stock for Squadron missile practice firings at Aberporth. Finally the missiles used for the pre service acceptance trials training firings and the service acceptance trials at Woomera themselves (expected to be anything up to 200 missiles) came out of the initial order for 800 missiles. 440+150+200= 790. (which in fact was the total number of Bloodhound Mk 1 production rounds built). However only 93 missiles out of the acceptance trials batch were actually fired, thus the order was cut to 700 missiles in 1959. The other 90 were sold to Sweden (13) and Australia (40) or used as trials development missiles for the Mk 1 or Mk 2 programmes. The Thunderbird order had co*k all to do with the defense of the deterrent but was to allow a hard core of RAF personnel to get experience with the English Electric weapon before the RAF was going what became Thunderbird Mk 2. when the price of each missile almost doubled over the next year and it was found that there was going to be major differences between the 2 marks of Thunderbird the RAF cut the order to 60 and then cancelled it. 182 RAF Mk 1's were fired between Jul 59 and Nov 63 in service trials and Squadron missile practice.

The original planned Mk 2 RAF deployment was 287 missiles on 5 Squadrons with 23 operational missile sections with 148 launchers, 16 Type 87 and 7 Type 86 radars. a further 2 Type 86, single Type 87 and four launchers were at Newton and Aberporth for trials and Tech Training plus there were 87 missiles at Aberporth and the MU's as a reserve for firing trials and replacement of Sqn practice firings.

The full deployment plan was

UK based Trials and operator training squadron - 25 Squadron North Coates Two Type 87 Sections each with 4 launchers and one mobile Type 86 section with 4 Launchers. 15 missiles on strength.

2 Overseas 'Standard' base defence squadrons - 33 Squadron Butterworth / 112 Sqn Cyprus. Four Type 87 Sections with 8 launchers. 64 missiles on strength. (100% reload)

2 'composite' squadrons with both base defence and deployment roles. One in far east and one in UK - 65 Squadron at Seletar on Singapore and 41 Squadron at West Raynham. three Type 87 Sections with 8 launchers and three deployable Type 86 sections with 4 Launchers. 72 missiles on strength.

Then the system was roled out over 1964/65 the results were:

25 Sqn - 3 sections as described but both Type 87 sections had 8 launchers. used Mk 1 site pads, Missile numers unknown but more that 15. Type 86 sections returned from Seletar in 1968 and squadron T 87 radars were removed to leave 4 deployable Type 86 sections with 4 launchers and 60 Missiles.

33 Sqn - as planned but with 72 Missiles on strength. Site built to support four 8 launcher sections.

41 Sqn - as planned - West Raynham site was designed to support three 8 launcher sections and three 4 launcher sections

65 Sqn - as planned but with 82 Missiles on strength. Seletar site was designed to support three 8 launcher sections and three 4 launcher sections. Type 86 sections returned to the UK in 1968. Missiles returned to the UK and rest of equipment transferred to Singapore in 1970 with refurbished missiles from UK (total missiles unknown but were most likely around 30)

112 Sqn - Set up at Woodhall Spa in UK with only 2 operational Type 87 sections with 4 launchers a piece (though one section did have 8 launchers for a while). Third Type 87 section was on site for most of the deployment without an LCP. planned forth section never delivered. 36 Missiles on strength. Non Op in May 67 and moved to Cyprus in the August of that year. Used Mk 1 site pads.

Second UK deployment

West Raynaham 85 Sqn A Flt - 2 Type 87 operational sections with 6 or 8 launchers (original plan was 6), one T87 engineering section with 6 or 8 launchers. C flt stood up at West Raynham and commissioned 2 Type 87 sections with 6 launcherd before moving to Bawdsey in mid 1979. D Flt stood up in 1980 with 2 Type 86 sections and 6 launchers a piece to first go to Watton and the Coltishall. move to Coltishall didn't happen and part of D Flight was absorbed into A Flt in 1989 when 25 Sqn absorbed in 85 Sqn. 100% reload plus reserve missiles due to being location of main missile servicing facilities. useed ex 41 Sqn sit

North Coates - B Flt 85 Sqn Three type 87 Sections with 8 launchers. 48 Missiles (inc reloads), though again had reserve missiles on top due to being location of second missile servicing facilities. Used former Mk 1 / 25 Sqn site

Bawdsey - C Flt 85 Sqn. Two Type 87 sections with 6 launchers. 24 missiles (inc reloads). New build site for that deployment.

Barkston Heath - A Flt 25 Sqn (later D Flt 85) Two Type 86 sections with 8 launchers. 32 missiles (inc reloads). New build site for that deployment.

Wyton - B Flt 25 Sqn (later F Flt 85) Two Type 86 sections with 8 launchers. 32 missiles (inc reloads). Site built for that deployment.

Wattisham - C Flt 25 Sqn (also E flight 85 Sqn in 1981-3 and 89-91). Two Type 86 sections with 6 launchers. 24 missiles (inc reloads). New build site for that deployment.

Around 90-100 Missiles fired at Aberporth between 1966 and 1986 (known total is 88) with four years of records not yet available.

66 Missiles and 6 Type 86 radars bought back of the Swedes in the late 1970.early 1980s. 9 Army AD-10 Radars off Thunderbird 2 transferred from Army and modified to type 86 standard. Type 87 Radars phased out and replaced between 1986 and 88.

294 Missiles on strength when system was canned in 1991.
 
Chris

Its a term that RAF Regiment gunners used to name the Technicians on Rapier Squadrons, based on he nick name of the Observer in the film Blue Thunder. The AD stands for Air Defence as Electronics Technician Air Defence.
 

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