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PWS & PZL Projects

Maveric

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P.W.S. 40
 

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Nico

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Justo Miranda said:
some additional info-3


Hi Justo and all the friends,
I found two different reproductions of the same frame of the P.50 Jastrzab fighter you sent and another, that seems to me different, of the derelict airframe found after capitulation of Poland. According to some sources (I no longer can trace) it could be an unfinished pre-production aircraft.
The others are referred to the visit in Poland, before the war, by Italian foreign minister count Galeazzo Ciano.
Nico
 

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hesham

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Hi,


PWS-61 was a two or three seat low-wing float seaplane recce and torpedo bomber
project,powered by one 520 hp engine.


PWS-62 was a three seat high-shoulder-wing float seaplane torpedo bomber project,
powered by two 520 hp engines.


http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/2259/126/PWS-612
http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/2260/126/PWS-622
 

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hesham

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From the book; Polskie Samoloty Wojskowe;


here is some drawing and models to some PWS projects;

PWS-2 was two seat single engined trainer project.
PWS-3 bis was a two seat parasol high-wing liaison aircraft project.


PWS-17 (M-2) was tandem two seat parasol wing night fighter monoplane,never
materialized.


PWS-23 B3N just a models for it.


PWS-27 was tandem two-seat trainer biplane project.


PWS-28 was a further development of PWS-27,as a trainer and aerobatic aircraft project.


PWS U-6 was a single-seater liaison and observation aircraft,which is the evolution of the concept of aircraft
and PWS-17 & PWS-19 with slightly reduced dimensions.The project was developed by an engineer
Anthony Uszackiego, but lost in the competition with the RWD-14 Czapla,only project.


PWS Z-7 was a single-seat liaison and observation aircraft project,it was beaten in competition with RWD-14,

the Z-7b had an inverted tail plane unit.

 

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hesham

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Also;


PWS Z-18 was a single seat fighter project,intended to replace PZL-11c.


PWS Z-37 was two seat fighter project,developed from Z-36,also had an
inverted tail plane unit.


PWS Z-49 was two seat fighter/trainer project,developed from Z-36 & Z-37.
 

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theponja

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the z-37 looks very weird. I like it. Any 3d view ?

And here some pictures for a cardmodel for the PWS Z-17 where you can see how strange it looks.
 

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hesham

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Hi,


here is a drawings to P.8,P.8/II (P.9) and P.8/II (P.9) Model.
 

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hesham

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Hi,


here is the drawings to PWS-10 fighter origins and develoipments,also the
early Models to it.


From Typy Broni PWS-10
 

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hesham

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Hi,


the PZL P.10 was a four seat day and night twin engined bomber project.


http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/2294/126/PZL-10
 

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cluttonfred

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Neat! Though I hope they would have lowered the tailgunner's position had it been built, the current arrangment puts him at risk of getting shot by the dorsal gunner and blocks the dorsal gunner's field of fire! It actually looks like quite a clean design for 1930-31, reminiscent of the Soviet Tupolev SB which it predated. With later, more powerful versions of the Jupiter and enclosed cockpits and gun turrets it could have been quite competitive.

Here is a Google translation of the linked Polish text...

PZL-10, 1931
Project bomber. Poland.

Hypothetical appearance bomber PZL-10. (Source: Klobuch K. "Origin of air in September." Publisher ZP. Warsaw 2009).

In the years 1930-1931 dr. Franciszek Misztal bomber developed a project day and night PZL-10, as a proposal successor aircraft Fokker F-VIIm3W . It was designed from the ground and provided an alternative proposal for the concept of adaptation PZL-4 on the bomber. Only made preliminary design.

Construction:
Airplane with all-metal construction. Załoga- 4 people.
Wing-coated double-girder stiffened longitudinally podłużniczkami, twin vertical tail.
Półskorupowy hull.
Retractable landing gear in flight.
Arm - in two towers: the tail and on the back of the fuselage behind the cockpit crew. Capacity bomb- 1500.
Drive - 2 radial engines probably Bristol "Jupiter" VIIF.

Source:
[1] Morgała A. "Military aircraft in Poland 1924-1939". Ed. Bellona. Warsaw 2003.
[2] K. Klobuch "Origin of air September. Poland doctrine aviation and military aircraft structures against enemies and allies." Publisher ZP. Warsaw, 2009.
 

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Hi,
This drawing was made for my book, so a few comments.
No drawings of PZL-10 were ever found, there are only descriptions. The most interesting features cited by Morgała are stressed-skin fuselage and internal arrangement allowing the tail gunner an easy transfer between his position and other crewmembers’ posts. The latter note, plus a few other features suggest IMO (and only IMO!) deletion of the internal bomb bay. This would be well-grounded in the design capabilities of 1930-1931. At PZL, the smooth stressed-skin fuselage just proved a success on PZL P-6 fighter, but no experience existed for coupling such a construction with big cut-outs. A while later in the US Martin had to use plates of corrugated skin on otherwise smooth fuselage of B-10 to deal with the problem. For B-9, Boeing chose to delete the bay, so the fuselage was just a metal “tube” with small holes, much easier to design for e.g. torsional forces from the empennage.
My argumentation was that PZL-10 fuselage was likely designed along the principles of B-9. The drawing was intended as illustration of this idea, with B-9 drawn next to it and some elements directly borrowed for simplification (e.g. pilots’ posts). So a stamp “illustrative” or “source grade 1, a bit more educated” should be placed on this picture here, to prevent creating an alternative internet history. :)
The description given by cluttonfred is taken from Morgała, so it’s OK (as long as we remember it’s based on interviews with PZL employees, taken some decades later). Podłużniczka is longeron, the wing didn't have 2 or 3 big spars, but numerous longditudal members along the upper and lower surface (a bit like Junkers multi-spar wing, but with open section bars, not tubes).
Hope this helps,
Klaudiusz
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Cluttonfred,


and for the member Klaud3,all best wishes for your new book,and is it speaking about
PZL aircraft or what ?.
 

klaud3

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There's no new book , the picture was made for the one published in 2009. Kl.
 

cluttonfred

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Thanks very much for your input, klaud3, always great to hear directly from the source. Is your book or the Morgała one available in English?
 

klaud3

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No, the only reference material in English is a book by Cynk from 70s (I guess). I think most of the input from Morgała and also Andrzej Glass can be found in various websites, as the one linked by Hesham.
My book is not a reference, rather a set of essays aimed at 1) comparing Polish aviation doctrine & development schemes vs. other countries, and 2) linking pieces of said doctrine and operational requirements (if preserved) to projects’ design features (Colin Sinnott book was a masterpiece here for RAF; if only I had Kew equivalent…). E.g. Polish historians seemed unaware that RAF had “bombing” doctrine till Inskip memorandum in ’37, the same was true for France in Plan II and IV – so they bashed our aviation C-in-C for stressing in 35-36 development of the bomber force instead of building “our Hurri & Spit”, etc. Because of such a focus, drawings in my book are often an illustration of certain concepts / design features – rarely a typical reference 3-view .
 

hesham

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Hi,


the PWS-36 was a single seat fighter low-wing monoplane,the PWS-37 was two-seat
fighter-bomber with a low tail fin,followed by the PWS-49 two seat trainer aircraft,all
remained a projects only.


Polish Aircraft 1893-1939
 

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cluttonfred

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Interesting. The dotted outline of the fin and rudder of the PWS-37 seems to suggest that they telescoped down into the the lower portions or that whole assembly pivoted somehow. Does anyone know more?
 
J

joncarrfarrelly

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cluttonfred said:
Interesting. The dotted outline of the fin and rudder of the PWS-37 seems to suggest that they telescoped down into the the lower portions or that whole assembly pivoted somehow. Does anyone know more?

Slides down, tested on Lublin R-XIIIE. Photo from Polish Aircraft 1893-1939, Cynk, Putnam 1971.

TBZ.jpg
 

hesham

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And PWS-35 prototype,also PZL-19 with GR-760 engine.

http://www.smil.org.pl/ptl/wyklady/73_Problemy_prototypow_1938-39.pdf
http://www.smil.org.pl/ptl/wyklady/114_RWD-9_i_PZL.26_w_Challenge_1934.pdf
 

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hesham

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Hi,

I don't know the upper airplane for PWS ?.

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala%20d'Italia/L'ALA%20D'ITALIA%201927%20010-011.pdf
 

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cluttonfred

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It looks like an early attempt at an ultralight aircraft, I'd love to learn more. My Italian is pretty limited, but the text (pp. 933-4) seems to describe only the two-seater at the bottom, not the ultralight on top. Pity.

Edit: Ah, I get it now. It's the PWS-3, a modular aircraft in which the lower fuselage beam carries the flight loads so that the upper fuselage can be varied to suit the mission. The upper image shows the basic structure, the lower image one possible solution for the complete aircraft. There was no intention to fly just the beam fuselage.

Apophenia has it here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,27077.msg278804.html#msg278804

PWS-3 -- 1927 2-seat parasol sport a/c* prototype, x 1
- PWS-3 : Multi-role airframe w/ lower fuselage beam**
- PWS-3A: [hypothetical designation, no record]
- PWS-3B: Prototype, wooden constr., P-PWSS/SP-ACJ
-- PWS-3B: 1 x 60 hp Walter NZ 60 5-cyl, span 9.7 m
- PWS-3 bis: [Project] 2-seat parasol liaison a/c
-- * Some source list PWS-3 as an 'observation a/c'
-- ** Beam to allow multiple upper fuselage types

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWS-3 and http://www.airwar.ru/enc/law1/pws3.html

Too bad, I like the sit-on-top "ultralight" concept better. ;-)
 

hesham

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The PZL P.30.

Samolot Bombowy PZL P-37 Los
 

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hesham

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A very strange thing that the LWS-1 was re-allocated to a project of single seat
low wing fighter,which was taken over by PZL as P.39,the LWS-1 was originally
the continues to produce Lubin R.XX aircraft.

Hi,

 

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Apophenia

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Just a reminder, the 1935 LWS-1 Lekkiego Samolotu Myśliwskiego concept became the PZL-39. There was no 'P.39' because those PZL 'P' designations signified the involvement of inżynier Zygmunt Puławski (who had died back in March of 1931).
 

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From, PZL-23 Karas (Samoloty Wojska Polskiego № 2)
 

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Deltafan

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From, PZL-23 Karas (Samoloty Wojska Polskiego № 2)
The Drawing seems more to be the PZL.46 than the PZL-23 ?

The PLZ.46 was a very good looking plane (like the swiss C-3601/3602, with the same configuration).
 
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Justo Miranda

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The Sokół Emergency Fighters Programme



After the Third Reich annexation of Sudetenland, the Polish Air Force was pressing for 170 per cent reserves of fighters, facilitating the reactivation of the Sokół project, which had been dismissed a year earlier in favour of the P.Z.L. P.50.

At the beginning of 1939 the Polish Department of Aeronautics issued the Sokół specification, calling for a light-weight single seat fighter powered by one 660-730 hp Gnôme-Rhône 14M-05 Mars double-row radial engine, armed with four 7.7mm KM Wz36 SG machine guns and equipped with a Walter Iskra R/T device and full oxygen installation.

The P.Z.L. firm proposed two Sokół versions, with all-metal construction, semi-monocoque fuselage structure and P.Z.L. two-blade, adjustable pitch airscrew: the P.45/I with fixed undercarriage and the P.45/II with retractable undercarriage. Both versions used structural solutions based on the P.Z.L.19 Challenge tourer wings, spanning 12.14 m, with 10.3 aspect ratio and 14.3 sq.m surface. Each wing panel housed one 175 litres fuel tank and one flap. A third flap was located in the belly fuselage. The estimated maximum speed of the P.45/II was 520 kph and the gross weight 1,940 kg. The construction of the P.45/I had still not concluded in September 1939.

The design proposed by the firm R.W.D. was very similar to the Fokker D.XXI and used the same construction system, with all-wood wings, spanning 10.5 m without flaps to simplify production. The fuselage, with welded Chrome-Molybdenum tubular structure, had a coating of light metal sheets in the front section and fabric in the rest.

The Letov three-blade fixed-pitch airscrew foreseen for the original design, should be replaced by another model after the invasion of Czechoslovakia. This version of the Sokół, called R.W.D. 25, would have an estimated maximum speed of 450 kph and a gross weight of 1,800 kg. The construction of the prototype, started in July 1939, could not be completed.

The Design Number 42, proposed by the firm P.W.S. early in 1939, would be totally built of wood/plywood, with inwards retractable landing gear, 9 m wingspan and 16 sq.m wing area.

It should be armed with two machine guns in the wings and two more in the nose. Its estimated maximum speed would be 520 kph and its gross weight of 1,900 kg.
 

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Justo Miranda

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P.Z.L. P.50 Jastrzab



Designed at the end of 1936 as a successor to the P.Z.L. P.11, the P.50 was a small monoplane with an elliptical wing and appearance like that of the American Seversky P-35.

The original specification required a highly manoeuvrable interceptor for the close defence of specific targets, propelled by an 840 hp Bristol Mercury VIII air-cooled radial engine and armed with four 7.7 mm machine guns: two WZ.36 G in the nose and two WZ.36 SG in the external wing panels.

The manufacture of 300 aircraft, under the denomination P.50A Jastrzab I, started in 1938. Delivery of the first 50 machines was expected by September 1939. The Aviation Command planned an expansion programme that was to end in 1941, with 15 squadrons equipped with P.50 A to and a reserve of 150 aircraft. The manufacture under licence of the Mercury VIII began in the P.Z.L-W.P.I aero-engine plant at Warsaw-Okeçie.

The prototype P.50/I was completed in September 1938. It was a fully metallic plane, with 2,500 kg gross weight, equipped with one Hamilton/P.Z.L. three-blade variable-pitch airscrew. The wings, spanning 9.7 m, housed the Dowty retractable undercarriage, flaps and Handley-Page automatic slots.

During its first flight in February 1939, it showed instability at low-speed and tail flutter in dive. The prototype was under-powered, with low rate of climb and the top speed was only 430 kph. The test pilots reported that their flight characteristics were inferior to those of the Seversky EP-1.

In August the P.50/I managed to fly at 500 kph thanks to the amendments to the carburettor air intake, tail unit and wing/fuselage fillets. In April the General Zając cancelled the production programme and ordered using the Mercury VIII available in the P.Z.L. P.11g Kobuz emergency fighters.

The basic Jastrzab airframe was adapted for many more powerful engines, like the indigenous 1,200 hp P.Z.L. Waran, lengthening the fuselage up to 8.2 m. Attempts were made to obtain either 1,050 hp Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp, 1,400 hp Gnôme-Rhône 14N 50, 1,145 hp Bristol Taurus III and 1,375 hp Bristol Hercules radial engines.

The new aircraft, called P.50B, would have been a strike-fighter armed with two 20 mm Wz.38D cannons in the wing roots and two 7.7 mm Wz.36 G machine guns in the nose and would be able to carry one 300 kg bomb or one detachable fuel tank under the fuselage.

The airframe was completed in the spring of 1939, but the Gnôme-Rhône 14N 21 engine acquired in France was not available on time.

The construction of other more advanced versions in 1940-41 had been foreseen:

P.Z.L. P.53A Jastrzab II with Waran or Bristol Hercules engines and P.Z.L./Hamilton-Standard propeller.

P.Z.L. P.53B, with Gnôme-Rhône 14N 51.

P.Z.L. P.56A Kania, with Hispano-Suiza H.S.12Y-31 or Allison V-1710-23 in-line engines.

P.Z.L. P.56B with one 1,600 hp Hispano-Suiza H.S.12Z.
 

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Justo Miranda

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P.Z.L. P.55



In October 1938 the design team of the firm Dewoitine, under the leadership of Robert Castello, began working on a version of the D.520 fighter, capable of flying at 700 kph.

The wind tunnel tests carried out in March 1939 in Toulouse-Banlève with a 1/8 model, proved that at least 650 kph could be reached, using a 900 hp Hispano-Suiza H.S.12Y crs engine driving one Ratier airscrew of 3m diameter, and exceed 700 kph with the new 1,200-1,400 hp H.S.12Z.

The performances of the new French ‘V’ engines attracted the attention of the Polish Department of Aeronautics that started contacts with the French Government to acquire a license for manufacture of the H.S.12Y-51 and H.S.12Z for the future Kania fighters. The designer Jerzy Dąbrowski was also interested, to propel his P.Z.L. P.55, a new fighter based on the Challenge tourer P.Z.L. P.26, with 11.25 m wingspan and 3,250 kg gross weight, sometimes described in the literature as P.62 or Dąbrowski Fighter.

In early summer 1939 the wind tunnel test showed the aerodynamic superiority of the P.55 (660 kph) against the Kania and the Aviation Command favoured its production. It would have been built entirely of metal, with laminar-flow wings provided with Handley-Page slots, flaps and outboard retractable landing gear. One semi-retractable radiator was designed, inspired by the Prestone cooling system used by French Morane-Saulnier 406 fighters.

The planned armament consisted of a 20 mm H.S.404 cannon or an indigenous Wz.38C, firing through the propeller hub, and six 7.92 mm Wz.36 SG machine guns mounted in the wings. The pilot would be protected by an armoured windshield and steel plates, the cockpit was heated and equipped with oxygen and Walter Iskra R/T device.

As an alternative to the French engine, the Polish Government tried to acquire the manufacturing licence for the American Allison V-1710-23. A future P.55 equipped with Allison could not use the cannon and should be reinforced with two Wz.36G (synchronized) machine guns in the nose. The prototype was expected to fly for the first time in the summer of 1940.
 

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hesham

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PWS M-8 was a single-seat reconnaissance aircraft project, developed by
engineer Joseph Medweckiego.

Hi,

The PWS M-8 observation plane project was developed in 1936
by Eng. Józef Medwecki at the Podlasie Aircraft Factory as a
competitive structure for the LWS-3 "Mewa" aircraft. The project
was based on the speed criterion, ensuring good observation
conditions and the ability to defend against fighters. The project
was not submitted for implementation.

 

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