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PWS & PZL Projects

Maveric

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Hi,
hesham do you have some technical data for the Z.17?

Thanks
 

airman

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Well, @ page 434 - 435 of Polish Aircraft 1893-1939 ( Putnam) , The PWS Z.17 have a speed estimated ( top speed) 350 km/h @ 10,000 metres and was armed with two guns in fuselage sides . Similar projects to PWS Z.17 , was Z.18 ( with Pegasus XX with 918 Hp) and Z.47 ( trainer with engine of 430 - 470 Hp)
 

hesham

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Hi,

PWS Z-7 was a single-seat liaison and observation aircraft project,
it was beaten in competition with RWD-14.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
Hi,

The PZL Foka was twin boom single seat lightweight fighter project and powered
by one pusher engine,it was abandoned in favour of PZL-45

My dear lark is right,

The PZL project of 1936/1937 was not called Foka,but it was
powered by Foka engine.

PWS M-8 was a single-seat reconnaissance aircraft project, developed by
engineer Joseph Medweckiego.

PWS U-6 was a single-seater liaison and observation aircraft,which is the evolution
of the concept of aircraft and PWS-17 & PWS-19 with slightly reduced dimensions.
The project was developed by an engineer Anthony Uszackiego, but lost in the
competition with the RWD-14 Czapla,only project.
 

redstar72

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hesham said:
PWS M-8 was a single-seat reconnaissance aircraft project, developed by
engineer Joseph Medweckiego.

Hi Hesham!

Firstly, the designer's surname was Medwecki (as well as Antoni Uszacki); "-ego" in Polish, like "-ogo" in Russian, is genitive case inflexion.
Secondly, M-8 project designed in 1935 was two-seat. It even had an unusual design feature: its vertical tail with rudder were located below the horizontal tailplane - to increase free rear fire sector for the observer/gunner. Another distinctiveness of the M-8 was retractable landing gear, used first time in Poland for this category of aircraft.

I think that Uszacki's U-6 was also 2-seat, but it isn't noted directly in my sources. But single-seat observation / liaison aircraft is a strange thing, to my mind.

Source: T. Chwalczyk, A. Glass. Samoloty PWS. - Warszawa, 1990 (ISBN 83-206-0899-6). Unfortunately no pictures.
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Redstar very much,

The PZL P-44B was a project for twin-engined recce and long range bomber which was a modified version of PZL
P-44.

Also PZL P-45 was a lightweight fighter project of 1937,powered by one PZL Foka or Ranger engine,it was not
related to P-45 of 1938/1939 aircraft.
 

hesham

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Hi,

PZL P.2 :project for single seat high wing fighter based on P.1 airframe
with Hispano-Suiza 12 Lb engine.
PZL P.9 :two seat single engined parasol wing observation project
with Skoda Whirlwind J5A ngine.
PZL P.9 :Re-allocated to a single seat high wing fighter based on P.8
airframe with Lorraine-Dietrich 12H Petrel engine.
PZL P.10 :project for three engined bomber aircraft,based on Fokker
F.VIIB/3m,powered by Bristol Jupiter VIIF.
PZL P.10 :Re-allocated to a single seat high wing fighter based on P.8
airframe with Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine,project only.
PZL P.14 :single engined sporting aircraft,project led to developed
P.19.
PZL P.15 :project of single engined two seat observation floatplane
it had a twin boom configuration.
PZL P.13 :single engined six-passenger light transport aircraft.
PZL P.17 :single engined high wing light transport postal aircraft
developed from P.16, project only.
PZL P.18 :was a project of floatplane twin-engined torpedo bomber
of 1929-1932.
PZL P.20 :single engined single seat fighter,(no more detail).

http://www.ciagnik.net/pl/PZL.18.html
 

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papacavy

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That Italian article that Airman posted the image of....

Well, those are my drawings that I did for Aeroplane magazine back in the late 1980's/early 1990's (I'd have to look up the exact issue). My reference material was the single drawing published in Cynk's book about Polish Aviation & published by Putnam's.

That low-winged PZL P24 is just my imagination, speculation about what might have been going on at the time. The P.56 Kania side-views were ALSO my SPECULATION (has anybody noticed how the cowlings resemble the Morane Ms.406 and the PZL P62?).

Please don't take those drawings seriously. They were based on iffy reference materials and my over-active imagination.

After all these years, I'm surprised that anyone has re-published my drawings or that anybody even noticed them! I'm not concerned about rights or copyrights - I always give my drawings free and clear (unless they were for a specific author or book, see attached credits).

Thank, Guys.
 

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klaud3

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Just to clarify one issue - PZL projects starting with P.... were officially only the ones designed by Zygmunt Pulawski, or development of these constructions. These are P.1 to P.11 plus P.24 and P.28. So eg. P.9 / P.10 were projects of gull-wing fighters with inline engines LD/Kestrel, while PZL-9 (aka P.Z.L.9, or PZL.9) was Dabrowski's hydro recce, floatplane variant of PZL Ł-2, and PZL-10 was Misztal bomber (I suppose close to Boeing B-9, but this is speculation). Sometimes in archive documents one can find such combinations like PZL P-37 for Łoś (Elk), but this is not an official designation.
Btw, picture of PZL-18 is wrong, it was much bigger plane with inlines and span 28 m.
Cheers, Klaudiusz
 

hesham

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klaud3 said:
, but this is not an official designation.
Btw, picture of PZL-18 is wrong, it was much bigger plane with inlines and span 28 m.
Cheers, Klaudiusz

Who said it is not a picture to PZL-18,that site consider like the
Wikipedia but with Polish language,and a polish people did that,
and the drawing is too small,but we can note,its is a big aircraft.


The PZL P.55 was a project for single seat fighter of 1939,prototype
PZL.55 / I had to be driven inline engine Hispano-Suiza 12Y, aircraft
planned to use the engine serial Hispano-Suiza 12Z.Its dimensions
were;wingspan 11.25m,length 9.64m and height 3.86m,and maximum
estimated speed 640-660 km/h.
 

klaud3

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Hesham, this is said by Andrzej Morgala (Samoloty wojskowe w Polsce 1924-1939, p. 379) and Andrzej Glass (Polskie konstrukcje lotnicze, vol. 2, p. 236). The profile similar to the one published in these books you can find here
http://awiacja.republika.pl/pzl.htm#PZL.18
Have no clue who was the author of Wiki drawing, never seen anything like this in a serious publication.

My intention was not to point out mistakes of you or any of the member of this site (which is great), but simply add some remarks only sb reading Polish is able to provide. It is pity that for the most of English-speaking world the most popular source of knowledge on Polish inter-war aviation is Putnam's book of Cynk, dated 1962! The issue is not that many new projects have been discovered since then (they have not), but interpretation of the development path of Polish constructions, their roles etc. changed significantly over the last 50 years. Eg. Cynk believed Col. Rayski's ideas were ridiculous, and accused him for leading the aviation to the brink of materiel collapse in late 1930s - and this is expressed everywhere in his book, even when he describes particular type of aircraft. In Poland another generation of historians (or even generation n+2) proved it was not that way, especially when you take into account Polish economics, geo-political position vs. Germany and Russia, doctrine (not developed by Rayski) and so on. But this is discussed in boring articles with limited amount of 3d drawings, published in Polish - so not so popular on the web. :(

If you have any particular interest of any type posted above, I'll try to drop some lines - would be a bit too time consuming to describe everything, especially that I am also not the ultimate source of knowledge, and my opinions are just opinions. PZL.55 is just the 'newer' name of a\c called earlier PZL.62 - both names are sort of speculative. Nice renderings of Marek Rys here (also PZL.50 Jastrzab). Side view you can find ... in the first page of the thread, misnamed "Light Dabrowski fighter" (Dabrowski made an initial design of a light fighter, but back in 1934-35, and no one knows how it looked like)
http://www.airart3d.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=250&Itemid=84
Regards from Warsaw
 

hesham

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Hi Klaud3,

I know this site very well,and if you look to the two drawings for
PZL P.18,you well find them the same,but from a different angles.
 

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Does anybody heard or got information about this PZL aircraft?

PZL.57 probably called Łosoś.
It supposed to be a light bomber or reconnaissance bomber.
 

Arjen

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@klaud3:
My intention was not to point out mistakes of you or any of the member of this site (which is great), but simply add some remarks only sb reading Polish is able to provide. It is pity that for the most of English-speaking world the most popular source of knowledge on Polish inter-war aviation is Putnam's book of Cynk, dated 1962!
There is a more recent book for the English-speaking world.

"White Eagles: The Aircraft, Men and Operations of the Polish Air Force 1918-1939" by Bartłomiej Belcarz & Robert Pęczkowski, Hikoki 2001.
 

Apophenia

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Tzoli said:
PZL.57 probably called Łosoś.
It supposed to be a light bomber or reconnaissance bomber.

According to Pawel Szczepaniec, the designation for the Łosoś is unknown. It was to be a 2-seat, twin-tailled divebomber derived from the PZL.46 Sum but HS.12Z powered, of reduced dimensions, and with retractable undercarriage. Begun in 1939, Łosoś project leader was Stanislaus Prauss.
 

Tzoli

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Apophenia said:
Tzoli said:
PZL.57 probably called Łosoś.
It supposed to be a light bomber or reconnaissance bomber.

According to Pawel Szczepaniec, the designation for the Łosoś is unknown. It was to be a 2-seat, twin-tailled divebomber derived from the PZL.46 Sum but HS.12Z powered, of reduced dimensions, and with retractable undercarriage. Begun in 1939, Łosoś project leader was Stanislaus Prauss.

Aw Thanks, I maybe just logically concluded that it would got the number 57.
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: PZL P.56 Kania and P.63

Couldn't this topic be merged with http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1471.0 ??
 

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An interesting article from AIR PICTORIAL (cover date: December 1962) devoted to the P.50 Jastrzab and also the ill-christened "Dabrowski Fighter" project.
 

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Szymon

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Hello again

I'm still working in free time to make some renders of Polish Projects before 1939.

Some examples (old and new):

PZL-48 Lampart
http://www.szymonkot.cal.pl/rendery/PZL-48%20Lampart.jpg

PZL-55 (PZL-62)
http://www.szymonkot.cal.pl/rendery/PZL.55%20Na%20trawie.jpg
http://www.szymonkot.cal.pl/rendery/PZL.55%20Shark.jpg

RWD-22
http://www.szymonkot.cal.pl/rendery/RWD-22%20na%20wodzie.jpg
http://www.szymonkot.cal.pl/rendery/RWD-22.jpg

PZL-49 Miś (Teddybear) - under construction
http://www.szymonkot.cal.pl/rendery/PZL-49 Mis.jpg

In future planes: PZL-3, PZL-18 and TS-16 Grot
 

Szymon

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PZL-55 and PZL-62 is the same project. This designation is alleged, arising from the relationship W. Jakimiuk that in the summer of 1939 he worked on the project is numbered PZL-63 - "immediately after the Dąbrowski fighter ". J. Dabrowski did not remember and never gave in its relations no indication for its project. It also does not occur in any known documents. Jakimiuk worked on PZL-56 "Kania", a evolution PZL-50 "Jastrzab" (Hawk). Number befor PZL-56 is PZL-55 -> Dąbrowski fighter. PZL-62 and PZL-63 is number who never existed (numbers never assigned to the PZL projects). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL.55 this data looks correct. But PZL-55 only its concept drawings and calculations designed by J. Dąbrowski - dimensions can be varied during the design process.

EDIT: Accurate history of this desgnations: a development of the "PZL-50 Jastrząb" (Hawk) with Taurus II or Gnome-Rhome 14N21 engine was PZL-53 "Hawk II" with the PZL Bristol Hercules, PZL Waran, Gnome-Rhome 14R engine. At the same time the project began to develop an airframe PZL-50/53 "Jastrząb"/"Jastrząb II" (Hawk/Hawk II) with row engine - designed by W.Jakimiuk PZL-56 "Kania" (Kite), and J.Dabrowski PZL-55, both designed with Hispano-Suiza 12Y engine. Due to the improved computational parameters Dąbrowski project (PZL-55) won this "competition" , and project PZL-56 was cancelled.
 

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SzymonGreat work. You renders looks very nice. I'm found specially appealing the PZL-55 and RWD-22 models.

Do you know if more information is available about the PZL-18 ?

Regards
Alcides
 

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The PZL.18 torpedo-bomber with twin floats, twin-boom, mid-wing cantilever monoplane seaplane of all-metal construction to be manned a crew of four. The wing, of semi-thick section, tapering in chord and thickness, resembled in general appearance the PZL.3 bomber.

Powered by two 650hp Hispano-Suiza twelve-cylinder upright-vee liquid-cooled engines.

Span 28m; length 17m; height 4.5m.

Added: Source Polish Aircraft 1893-1939 by Jerzy Cynk
 

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Szymon

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Management in 1930, the Navy Command (KMW - Kierownictwo Marynarki Wojennej) identified the need for heavy torpedo plane for Marine Aviation Squadron (Morski Dywizjon Lotniczy). The resulting projects Lublin R-XX, PWS-62 and PZL.18. PZL.18 was by S. Praussa presented KMW in 1931. After selecting the KMW Lublin R-XX PZL.18 work was stopped.

Supplementing the description of Loren.

Hull: Duralumin, lattice, covered with metal sheet. Crew cab open sheltered by windshield. Three shooting positions: upper-front, upper-rear, lower-rear and the bay into two torpedoes placed one above the other.

Wings: rectangular, trapezoidal, with elliptical ends, trigeminal, covered with grooved metal sheet Wibault type (as in PZL.11). Double tail, covered with grooved metal sheet Wibault type. Duralumin floats with a length of 8.50 m and spacing of 5.2 m.

Armament: three shooting position at 5 k.m. (machine guns - probably Vickers): upper-front - double machine gun, upper-rear - double machine gun , lower-rear single machine gun. Payload 3000kg of bombs or torpedoes in the fuselage.

Propeller: biplane, wooden, solid.
 

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If i may ask a question here , as since my country operated many polish aircraft during the thirties and WW2, it is a very interesting subject for me.
Now the way i've got the story of the last polish fighter designs before WW2 is this.

PZL-50/I (Jasztrab), first prototype with SHORT fairing behind canopy.
PZL-50/II, given as intended for a G-R14N engine , unfinished , on basis of which PZL-50A was to be built , long fairing behing canopy ( a la PZL-24 or IAR-80 if you like), plus empennage modifications.
PZL-50B, more powerful Taurus engine.
PZL-53 Jasztrab-II, high power Waran, Hercules , PW or G-R 14R engines.
PZL-56 (object of my question) aparently with HS-12Y or Z engine, right ? Now , question is , is this project with inline engine based on the long fairing or short fairing PZL-50 airframe ?! Apart from the single drawing we all know, which was kindly indicated as "what-if" by it's autor, do they exist any reliable info and/or drawings as to this aircraft's configuration? Also his PZL-56 project LOST the competition with the PZL-55( or 62 by the old name), so it wasn't been planned to be produced, correct?

Finally, meentime, did any new pictures of the PZL50 surfaced since the ones from 2005 ?

Many thanks for your help. :)
 

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Thanks Justo Miranda , that's the drawing about which i said the author posted several pages back that it's only a "what-if". :)

Page 4 of this thread:

papacavy said:
That Italian article that Airman posted the image of....

Well, those are my drawings that I did for Aeroplane magazine back in the late 1980's/early 1990's (I'd have to look up the exact issue). My reference material was the single drawing published in Cynk's book about Polish Aviation & published by Putnam's.

That low-winged PZL P24 is just my imagination, speculation about what might have been going on at the time. The P.56 Kania side-views were ALSO my SPECULATION (has anybody noticed how the cowlings resemble the Morane Ms.406 and the PZL P62?).

Please don't take those drawings seriously. They were based on iffy reference materials and my over-active imagination.

After all these years, I'm surprised that anyone has re-published my drawings or that anybody even noticed them! I'm not concerned about rights or copyrights - I always give my drawings free and clear (unless they were for a specific author or book, see attached credits).

Thank, Guys.
 

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Hi Lancer - pretty good collection of Jastrzab drawings (from older and much speculative to more recent, based on photos from 2005) can be found at Polish forum "Odkrywca" (http://odkrywca.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=232844). The most reliable are 3-d views posted at 2005-11-08 15:23:00 (from "Lotnictwo" monthly) and 2007-06-11 14:51:00 (beige background).
Unfortunately no new photos emerged since then.
 

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some additional info-1
 

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Justo Miranda

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Justo Miranda

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some additional info-3
 

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hesham

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Who has a drawing to PWS-22 & PWS-23 bomber projects ?.
 

Apophenia

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Sources -
http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/2239/84/PWS-22B3N2
http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/2240/104/PWS-232
 

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hesham

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The 3-view is better,thank you my dear Maveric.
 

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