• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Projects in Switzerland

richard

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
571
Reaction score
12
Enjoy !

Projects of the "Institut für AerodynamiK"
Does anybody knows more ?

http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_240-276_29408.html
http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_240-191_30044.html
http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_240-204_30018.html
http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_240-203_30020.html
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
My dear Richard,

it was EFW and EKW projects,which began after the war by N-0.
 

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,783
Reaction score
7
This is excellent Richard!
Thanks a lot...
 

Tophe

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
7
Website
cmeunier.chez-alice.fr
richard said:
Enjoy !
http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_240-203_30020.html
This unknown twin-boomer is a big enjoyment, thanks! I have nothing to add, ignoring it completely.
A date would be welcome, mainly. Presented with the Hindenburg airship, it may be dated 1935 (as the first flight of the Hindenburg came in 1936, with explosion in 1937).
Confirmation of its asymmetry would be welcome as well (see view from above)...
 

agricola64

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
85
Reaction score
0
Tophe said:
Confirmation of its asymmetry would be welcome as well (see view from above)...
what makes you think its asymmetric ?

servus

markus
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
richard said:

Hi,


the EKW (Eidgenossiche Konstruktions Werkstatte) established during WW1 by A. Haefeli,
and in 1934 the company became the Swiss government's aircraft establishment for
research and development,and changed its name into EFW (Eidgenossiche Flugzeugwerk
Emmen),and we can put the drawings here;
 

Attachments

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
Hi,


also a high speed research aircraft;


http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_Dia_240-142_29896.html
 

Attachments

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
212
Don't want to be a killjoy, but were can I find a clue, that these are actually EKW/EFW designs ?
The stamps on those drawings and the site make quite clear, that they are from the "Institut für
Aerodynamik" (institute for aerodynamics) of the E.T.H., the "Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule",
which means the swiss technical university. In the case of the model it may actually have been a study
of the EKW C.3601, but even this would need some further explanations, as this model has not too
much in common with the C.3601 (single seater, retractable landing gear, gull wing).
So I think, we cannot rule out, that those are "just" some kind of degree dissertations.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
My dear Jemiba,


please see the translation,it tells us that aircraft was C-3601,but in fact may
be it was C-3603,which had a retractable landing gear,and the company is
EFW,not that Institute,and it obviously looks like C-36.
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
212
hesham said:
please see the translation,it tells us that aircraft was C-3601,...
The caption says "Modell eines Jagdeinsitzers LA 1939. Schweizer Militär-Flugzeug, Modell Jagdeinsitzers
C-36 gezeigt an Landes-Ausstellung 1939, wurde reaslisiert als C-3601 und Folgemuster, Chef Ing. J. Branger."
(Model of a single seat fighter from 1939, swiss military aircraft, model single seat fighter C-36 shown on the
countries exhibition, realised as C-3601 and successors, leading engineer J.Branger)

It actually is is related to the C-36 series (although "..realised as C-3601.." isn't quite correct) but not even here
a direct relation to EWK or EFW is mentioned. And in all other cases there is even much less of such information !
The large twin boom freight aircraft is just captioned as such, as is the 4-engines pax liner. At least the design for
the jet fighter is clearly stated to be a design from the ETH, that means from the university, but no more.
Browsing through the picture archive (very interesting by the way) shows, that there are designs and aircraft from
different countries. So it is not even clear to me, if those to large aircraft are swiss designs at all.
Please, give me evidences ! ;)
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
My dear Jemiba,


to be more spacific,from beginning the Dornier factory at Swiss became or re-organised
as EFW,after Dornier resumed the production into Germany at 1932,and we forget
that,the EFW reformed to be FFA during the WW2,and they began to develop a two
series of aircraft and projects,the first took the letter "P" and the second took the
letter "N",and I suggest those projects were the from series "P" which was started
with P-1,and may be (not sure) they related to EFW or FFA.
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
212
Quite probably true, but honestly, I can see neither a "P", nor an "N" designation. Apart from the
C-36 derivative (please note, that it was shown in conjunction with that university, too !), there
are no designations at all, the jet fighter design obviously was directly from the ETH. Without
further information, assigning those drawings to a swiss aircraft manufacturer seems to me
like pure speculation.
Again, I don't want to spoil the joy of finding "unknown projects", but I think, we need some
substantial evidences. To me, they look more like students degree dissertations. Remember
the "Wiener Neustadt Wn 19" ? (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14232.15.html )
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
100
Found by hesham in Les Ailes, August 13, 1936, one of the numerous designs test-flown in model form by Swiss technician Albert Meister. The item says that the shape depicted has proved extremely efficient and reminds that of a bird with its wings folded back. The lifting body is ended by two small ailerons that can be operated jointly or separately. It has proved very stable with its forward center of gravity and lands with a parachute in satisfactory conditions.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6555231k/f3.image
 

Attachments

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
From Flieger Revue 6/1980,


here is the EKW aircraft drawings and Info from C-3601 to C-3605.
 

Attachments

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,022
Reaction score
212
Just a remark: All those types were actualy built, altough some just as prototypes/one-offs.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
Hi,

here is some rare Swiss aircraft,the SWS C-1 was a military biplane,all details are
in that site;

http://www.alt-zueri.ch/turicum/verkehr/zivilaviatik/zivilaviatik_zuerichhorn.html
 

Attachments

dan_inbox

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
600
Reaction score
79
The name of the company SWS is reported in this site as "Schweizerische Wagonsfabrik in Schlieren und Zürich", whereas in most other sites it is Schindler instead of Schweizerische.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
dan_inbox said:
The name of the company SWS is reported in this site as "Schweizerische Wagonsfabrik in Schlieren und Zürich", whereas in most other sites it is Schindler instead of Schweizerische.
Thank you Dan.
 

iverson

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
235
Reaction score
7
hesham said:
Hi,

here is some rare Swiss aircraft,the SWS C-1 was a military biplane,all details are
in that site;

http://www.alt-zueri.ch/turicum/verkehr/zivilaviatik/zivilaviatik_zuerichhorn.html
Here is another view of the same aircraft.
 

Attachments

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
Hi,

also there is a series of gliders/sailplanes and motor glider,designed and built by Jacob
Spalinger,from S-1 to S-28.

http://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeurs-liste_complete_int.php
 

Kuno

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
66
Reaction score
10
hesham said:
My dear Jemiba,


to be more spacific,from beginning the Dornier factory at Swiss became or re-organised
as EFW,after Dornier resumed the production into Germany at 1932,and we forget
that,the EFW reformed to be FFA during the WW2,and they began to develop a two
series of aircraft and projects,the first took the letter "P" and the second took the
letter "N",and I suggest those projects were the from series "P" which was started
with P-1,and may be (not sure) they related to EFW or FFA.
Dear Hesham;

It appears to me that your above information is not correct. "EFW" and "FFA" are not different names of the same company but entirely different companies.

"FFA" was the former "Doflug" which was established by Dornier (who came from Friedrichshafen, just on the otehr shore of Lake Konstanz). FFA was never a "Government-company" (although it was basically living on Government contracts as far as the manufacturing of aircraft is concerned)

"EFW" (Eidgenössische Flugzeugweke) in Emmen, established in Thun durign WWI was brought in today's RUAG. They were always under the control of the Government (respectively its powerful director who was convinced that only him knows what is best for the air force).
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
My dear Kuno,

it was not my opinion,the Dornier company which formed in Switzerland later became
EFW,and for FFA formed as a part of Dornier and split off in 1948.

Flug- und Fahrzeugwerke Altenrhein AG (FFA) (English: Flight and Driving Vehicle Plant Altenrhein) was a Swiss aircraft and railroad car manufacturing company based at Altenrhein. It was originally part of Dornier Flugzeugwerke, but was split off in 1948.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flug-_und_Fahrzeugwerke_Altenrhein
 

Attachments

Kuno

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
66
Reaction score
10
Dear Hesham; the statement in your scan "The Swiss Factory subsequently became Eidgenössische Flugzeugwerke" is definitely not correct by all what I know.

> The "Eidgenössische Flugzeugwerk" (F+W)" was established first in Thun and was the "aeronautical part" of "Eidgenössische Konstruktionswerkstätte" (K+W). It was later moved to Thun where it still is (with its new name "RUAG").

> "Flug- und Fahrzeugwerke Altenrhein AG" (FFA)" was a Swiss aircraft and railroad car manufacturing company based at Altenrhein. It was originally part of "Dornier Flugzeugwerke", but was split off in 1948. (See: Wikipedia)
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
Kuno said:
> "Flug- und Fahrzeugwerke Altenrhein AG" (FFA)" was a Swiss aircraft and railroad car manufacturing company based at Altenrhein. It was originally part of "Dornier Flugzeugwerke", but was split off in 1948. (See: Wikipedia)
My dear Kuno,

that's I said,it took a part of Dornier factory and started its activities,this Dornier Flugzugwerke
became EFW as the encyclopedia mentioned.
 

Kuno

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
66
Reaction score
10
Dear Hesham;

That's definietely not correct - EFW (or F+W) was not a "spin off" of "Dornier" in Altenrhein but an entirely different company with entirely different roots.

(The scan you show above of that "Enciclopedia" is wrong. It s also wrong stating that Dornier founded the factory in Altenrhein since there was not enough space anymore at its old location - the actual reason why Dornier came to Switzerland was that the Versailles Treaty after WWI did not allow the German aircraft manufacturers to produce any aircraft in Germany.)
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
OK,maybe this encyclopedia was wrong.
 

Kuno

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
66
Reaction score
10
The thing with aircraft manufacturing in Switzerland was a bit complicated, indeed.

For example the one C-36 preserved in the Air Force Museum which is a "K+W / EFW"-design is labelled "Doflug" (which is "Dornier" in Altenrhein). This is because Dornier manufactured a part of the C-36...

(...what reminds me that it is a fairly long time ago that I visited the museum...)
 

Kuno

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
66
Reaction score
10
Jemiba said:
hesham said:
please see the translation,it tells us that aircraft was C-3601,...
The caption says "Modell eines Jagdeinsitzers LA 1939. Schweizer Militär-Flugzeug, Modell Jagdeinsitzers
C-36 gezeigt an Landes-Ausstellung 1939, wurde reaslisiert als C-3601 und Folgemuster, Chef Ing. J. Branger."
(Model of a single seat fighter from 1939, swiss military aircraft, model single seat fighter C-36 shown on the
countries exhibition, realised as C-3601 and successors, leading engineer J.Branger)

It actually is is related to the C-36 series (although "..realised as C-3601.." isn't quite correct) but not even here
a direct relation to EWK or EFW is mentioned. And in all other cases there is even much less of such information !
The large twin boom freight aircraft is just captioned as such, as is the 4-engines pax liner. At least the design for
the jet fighter is clearly stated to be a design from the ETH, that means from the university, but no more.
Browsing through the picture archive (very interesting by the way) shows, that there are designs and aircraft from
different countries. So it is not even clear to me, if those to large aircraft are swiss designs at all.
Please, give me evidences ! ;)
I had recently sent the drawings of the Swiss airliner "projects" to R. Eichenberger, who is depite his age still very interested in aviation topics and without me mentioning it, he said then on the telephone that the ETHZ had also developped a fighter project with surface cooling and twin fins and that the max. speed was calculated to be 700km/h.

I think that none of the Swiss aircraft manufacturers was involved in this project but only the ETHZ.

The same was the case fro the Pilatus SB-2. The completed project was actually sold to Pilatus who then built it (but only once).
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
Thank you my dear Kuno for the info,

and please if your friend can send a drawing to this fighter with twin fin,that will be
a great,and maybe it was a jet fighter like this.
 

Attachments

Kuno

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
66
Reaction score
10
Hello Hesham;

The aircraft he talked about was the one shown above as a wind-tunnel modell with the propeller - not a jet.

Sorry.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
My dear Kuno,

you meant C.3601,but it was for EKW,and was not for ETHZ.
 

Kuno

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
66
Reaction score
10
Whilst the caption of the photo of the wooden model says C.3601 it is definitely not the C.3601 but "only" a wind tunnel model done by a department of the ETHZ. The photo-database of ETHZ as quite a number of photos with not correct captions....
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
OK my dear Kuno,and many thanks.
 

Kuno

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
66
Reaction score
10
dan_inbox said:
The name of the company SWS is reported in this site as "Schweizerische Wagonsfabrik in Schlieren und Zürich", whereas in most other sites it is Schindler instead of Schweizerische.
The SWS-1 aircraft was constructed and built by "Schweizerische Waggonfabrik Schlieren". It was the only aircraft-project of SWS and although it seemed to be a good plane, the Swiss Air Force quickly lost its interest after the end of WW1. in 1956 SWS 30% of the shares of SWS were bought by Pars Finanz AG which was the "motehr concern" of the "Schindler Group". 1660 the rest of the shares were bought and SWS was integrated into Schindler.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
Nice Info my dear Kuno,

and can I ask you about the beginning of EFW series of aircraft and Project,as I heard
there was a Project for EFW,called N-0,and it was a jet trainer airplane,this series maybe
ended by N-20 ?,was that right,and what was the first of this sequence.
 

Kuno

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
66
Reaction score
10
Dear Hesham;

Not that I would say that I have the "overall information" at all. Taken from GEorg Bridel's book "Schweizerische Strahlflugzeuge und Strahltriebwerke I have the following:

End of the first first quarter of 1945, "Eidgenössische Flugzeugwerke Emmen" (EFW or F+W) initiated two projects:

Project "Branger" became N-20. This was the four-egined deltawing plane
Project "Gränicher" became the N-10/11, a single engined jet. This project was handed over to DOFLUG by middle of 1946 and was abandoned by middle of 1947 because of the Government's decision not to proceed with single-engined jets.
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,250
Reaction score
1,049
Thank you my dear Kuno,

I had an artist drawing to N-0 before my computer crashed,But now I haven't.
 
Top