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Hood

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Selling them as 'scrap metal' (especially for the older cruisers) would have been one way I suppose.
The relatively new Kuma and Tenryu-class cruisers on the other hand would be too suspicious for that duplicitous method. Surprises me that Japan would want to part with these newer ships.
 

Tzoli

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More likely free up cruiser tonnage for more ships. Disbanding say 5 Kumas of 5.500tons frees up 27.500tons of tonnage which would bring two more Takaos and a 7-7.500ton squadron leader which the IJN was considering since the 1920's though on 5.000tons and which eventually led to the Aganos and Oyodo, Alternatively after LNT that would mean 7 Mogamis rather than 4
 
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Dilandu

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Only problem that their turrets maximum elevation isn't changed since WW1 and to my knowledge stayed at 25 degrees, while the Polish BB which was to be likely RN built would be maxed at 40-45 degrees.
From Navweaps:
305mm/52 Pattern 1907 Gun with Pattern 1928 HE shell: 314kg and 950m/s -> 141,7MJ
12"/50 BL Mark XIV Gun of 1933 with 430,9kg and 808m/s APC shell -> 140,65MJ (Expected range at 40 degrees: 33,8km)

Hmm looks like somewhat evenly matched though the Russian shell being High Explosive it's penetration capabilities would be limited and the British gun would had higher elevation but again the Gangut-Sevastopols had 12x guns....

Checked the sources: the "Parijskaya Kommuna" received turret upgrade that increased her elevation up to 40 degrees. The range with standard 470,9 kg AP shell reached 29.800 meters.

"Marat" and "Oktyabrskaya Revolutsia" still have 25 degrees max elevation and 24.500 meters max range with standard AP shell.

The long-range 1928 pattern HE shell was, according to most sources, designed for long-range coastal bombardment, and it's not clear, was it supposed to be used against enemy ships, or not. It was stated that lighter shell have somewhat more dispersion, but I was not able to find exact numbers.

Only problem that their turrets maximum elevation isn't changed since WW1 and to my knowledge stayed at 25 degrees, while the Polish BB which was to be likely RN built would be maxed at 40-45 degrees.

Well, if it would be build, it would most likely be armed with Mark XIV 12-inch guns - or their derivatives - which would gave theoretical max range of 33.800 meters at 40 degrees. But I seriously doubt about the efficiency of long-range fire (especially considering that Royal Navy generally favored closing to medium-range actions and designed fire control systems accordingly)
 

USSEssex

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An excerpt from Plan M mentions the ships that were supposed to be until 1943-1944:
- construction of further ships with a minimum displacement of 10,000 tons - it was mentioned that a loan was planned supported by a million strong group of Liga Morska i Kolonialna (Maritime and Colonial League members), which was to finance the construction of further ships with a minimum displacement of 10,000 tons. In my opinion, they are battleships or, as a last resort, heavy cruisers.
- a cruiser with a displacement of 8,000 tons - it is written that the outbreak of the war destroyed the order for a cruiser with a displacement of 8,000 tons, which was to result in the construction of such a cruiser.
- 2 Orzel submarines from French shipyards - that's right, construction started in 1938
- 2 destroyers built in the Gdynia shipyard - that's right, destroyers 5 and 6 of the improved Grom type: ORP Huragan and ORP Orkan, the construction of ORP Huragan began in 1939, 2 weeks before the outbreak of World War II.
- 10 chasers that were built in a British shipyard - Yes it's true
So, by 1943-1944, the fleet was supposed to be
- 2 or 4 cruisers or 2-4 battleships - these are the ships with a displacement of 10,000 tons
- 1 cruiser with a displacement of 8,000 tons
- 6 destroyers
- 7 submarines
- 10 chasers( in Polish ścigacz)
As mentioned, the total tonnage of the fleet in the years 1943-1944 could reach 50,000 tons, by 1939 the total tonnage of the fleet was 20,000 tons.
I will just add that the Plan M marine program has been approved. It was never implemented for geopolitical reasons.
Sory for possible mistakes in English, but my English is at least average.
 

David Chessum

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More likely free up cruiser tonnage for more ships. Disbanding say 5 Kumas of 5.500tons frees up 27.500tons of tonnage which would bring two more Takaos and a 7-7.500ton squadron leader which the IJN was considering since the 1920's though on 5.000tons and which eventually led to the Aganos and Oyodo, Alternatively after LNT that would mean 7 Mogamis rather than 4

The replacement tonnage for the Kumas was already included in the tonnage that was used to lay down the Mogamis and the Tone/Chikuma. The only way the Japanese could have gotten more cruiser tonnage to lay down during the term of LNT30, would be in they had 'accidentally' lost some of the more modern light cruisers, or if they had invoked the escalation clause.

Regards

David
 

Tzoli

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Nothing it was never went beyond consideration I think not even size calculations were done or at least none survived so far.
Only the late Admiral Furushita made a drawing of the battleship:
 

Tzoli

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It is a modification of the Dutch Design 1057 I think.
 

Dilandu

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It is a modification of the Dutch Design 1057 I think.
IMHO, of course, but any large warship Poland might (in pure theory) order in 1930s, would be built either by British or French shipyard. Such major contract for Poland would inevitably have a significant political part.

French shipbuilders would most likely suggest a scaled-down Dunkerque with two 12-inch quads & non-dual purpose battery (of six-inch and three-inch guns)

British shipbuilders would most likely suggest something akin to Design 12B (1929), maybe with three triple 12-inch turrets. The secondary battery would probably be similarly conservative, of six-inch dual turrets and four-inch AA guns.

Both designs would most likely be of less than 25000 ton, and with limited range and seakeeping ability. Dunno about armor scheme: since the main theater for such ship would be Baltic, with poor visibility, it would most likely have emphasis on armored area, rather than armor thickness. I.e. it would probably have upper belt, bow and stern armor, and sloped main deck.
 

Tzoli

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Not necessary. What I've learned that the Shipyards could offer designs to foreign nations for whom the country is at bad relations (see the various designs of the Japanese Shipyards to China in the early 1930's) though I'm sure with the Government's approval.
 

Hood

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Looks quite... unrealistic. Turrets are clearly German, for example.
Anything Craig Burke (aka Admiral Furashita) may have drawn or modeled or photoshopped for his gaming AU are purely fictional.
Fun stuff but not to be relied upon as real source material. Indeed it looks like he took a 1047 drawing and altered the turrets.

Trying to pin down the Polish capital ship plans is probably pointless as they never got beyond basic number crunching studies and certainly not to the stage of issuing specifications for tenders.
 

Tzoli

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Yes that is true, but it could start the imagination of artists
 

USSEssex

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But in Poland before the war, there were projects of cruisers, including heavy cruisers, in the years 1919-1929 Poland wanted more light cruisers, from 1930 they were already heavy cruisers.
Cruisers in Poland were reported practically from the very beginning.
Unfortunately, no drawings of these ships have survived to this day, not even in Polish archives. If such ship drawings survive (I hope they are), they are in the Russian archives.
I can even write about some Polish cruisers, even though this information is not too much.
I chose the most interesting cruisers:
1. Light cruiser with a displacement of 6000-7000 tons - it was in 1929, when Józef Piłsudski asked the inspectors to determine the needs of the navy. One of them, General Rybak, presented the fleet expansion program - among them he wrote about 2 light cruisers with a displacement of 6000-7000 tons, armed with 6 guns of 190 mm caliber, and speeds of 33-35 knots, these cruisers were to be against the Germans.
There was also a mine cruiser and a displacement of 5,000 tons with 4x 130 mm guns
2. Then, in the plan from 1930, engineer Aleksander Potyrała calculated the costs of building an armored cruiser with a displacement of 6,000 tons, the cost was 51 million PLN.
3. A heavy cruiser with a displacement of 14,000 tons it was in 1931, when the data of pocket battleships were available, the KMW staff proposed a heavy cruiser with a displacement of 14,000 tons as a response to German pocket battleships. Its construction was planned. The main armament is presumably 254 mm +
4a. A heavy cruiser with a displacement of 18,000-20,000+
- it was originally in the naval program for 1936-1942, according to the description, it was supposed to be a heavy cruiser that was supposed to have stronger armament than the German heavy cruisers Admiral Hipper, and faster than the German pocket battleships.
The main armament is presumably 254 mm +
Displacement, main armament, and speed are not known to me so far.
I think is this 3x3 254 mm Bofors model 1932
4b. Heavy cruiser with a displacement of 15,000 tons - variant N(war with Germany), was 1 heavy cruiser with a displacement of 15,000 tons, according to the description, she was supposed to be more powerful than the German light cruisers and faster than pocket battleships, speed was estimated at 33 knots, main armament is not known, presumably it is 4x3 203 mm, or caliber 254 mm +
displacement of 18,000-20,000+ is presumed, to know which cruiser it is I have given the estimated displacement
As there were data for pocket battleships, then Poland gave the answer in the form of a heavy cruiser with a displacement of 14,000 tons, i.e. we have 10,000 tons vs 14,000 tons Admiral Hipper had a displacement of 16,000 tons, so the heavy cruiser that was supposed to counter them could have been 20,000 tons, that is, 20,000 tons +, which is possible.

I bet on the 254 mm Bofors model 1932 guns where, mainly due to finances or logistics (because Poland could not afford the Polish Alaska class, i.e. a heavy cruiser with 305 mm guns), and the 283 mm Bofors M16 guns were then obsolete for Poland.
Poland was looking for modern guns.
5. Heavy cruiser with a displacement of 15,000 tons - this heavy cruiser was initially in the naval program for 1942, was to have 3x3 203 mm guns, 9x 120 mm guns, Speed unknown.
After the reductions of these 15,000 tons and 20,000 tons +, cruisers they were gone.
The only thing I can do is attach a drawing of one of the Polish cruisers (this is not a technical drawing of the project, it is more of an attempt to reconstruct this ship). In my opinion, this is the 15,000 heavy cruiser that was supposed to be more powerful than the German light cruisers and faster than the Pocket Battleships. If not, then some other heavy cruiser I don't know.( it's no my drawing)
Edit
In photo is the light cruiser.
 

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00-PureEvil-00

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Kockums AB unsuccessful bid for Grom-class. Two versions (from May and August 1934), differed by dimensions and type of AA guns.
1610 or 1850 tons standard displacement, 38 knots, three twin 120mm and two triple torpedo tubes.
 

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USSEssex

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Kockums AB unsuccessful bid for Grom-class. Two versions (from May and August 1934), differed by dimensions and type of AA guns.
1610 or 1850 tons standard displacement, 38 knots, three twin 120mm and two triple torpedo tubes.
Do you have Gotaverken or Vickers designs from the Grom class Destroyer tender?
List of bidders for the tender grom
France:
- Ateliers et Chantiers de Bretagne (1,690 t)
- Forges et Chantiers de la Gironde
- Chantiers Navals Français
- Chantiers de Penhoët
- Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire (1950 t)
- Chantiers et Ateliers Augustin Normand (1,250 t)

Sweden:
- AB Götaverken (1,610 t)
AB Götaverken (1,850 t)
AB Kockums (1,610 t)
AB Kockums (1,850 t)
England:
- Thornycroft (T976 version A)
Thornycroft (T976 version B)
Thornycroft (T976 version C)
- John Samuel White
- Yarrow
- Vickers
- Swan Hunter
- Hawthorn Leslie
- Palmers Shipbuilding Company

And polish cruiser info
The project of the Polish Washington cruiser with a displacement of 10,000 tons by Aleksander Potyrała, probably from the 1920s or 1930s.
Technical data:
displacement of 10000t.
dimensions :
Length: 185 m
Width: 20 m
Height: 9 m
Draft: 6m
Armament:
9x203mm in 4 turrets (probably 1x3 + 3x2)
9x120mm in a 9x1 arrangement
several AA guns
8 533mm torpedo tubes 2x4
Drive: machine power of 120,000 KM
Speed: 35 knots
armor:
sides 110mm,
90mm artillery,
40mm deck,
Conning tower 200mm.
Estimated value of the construction: approx. PLN 70 million.


First project Samuel&White in photo
 

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lordroel

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Nothing it was never went beyond consideration I think not even size calculations were done or at least none survived so far.
Only the late Admiral Furushita made a drawing of the battleship:

Why American American 12" guns, did the British ore French not have something as it would be much faster i assume, but then its just me asking.
 

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