PAK DA ""Poslannik" program - Tupolev 'Izdeliye 80' bomber

[Matej]

The Russian Air Force may receive its first PAK DA next generation long-range bomber about 2020 instead of 2025 as initially planned, Russia’s acting deputy Air Force commander, Major General Alexander Chernyayev, has said.

Think of it as a deeply modernized Tu-160. Something like B-1B packed with latest weapons and avionics. They are not looking for clean-sheet desing and its clever decision, because Tu-160 still has a lot of development potential. Considering the age of Russian bombers, they also need quantity, not only quality (to replace old fleet), so hyperultracostly solution like B-2 is worthless for them.

 

[tacitblue]

The Russian Air Force may receive its first PAK DA next generation long-range bomber about 2020 instead of 2025 as initially planned, Russia’s acting deputy Air Force commander, Major General Alexander Chernyayev, has said.

Think of it as a deeply modernized Tu-160. Something like B-1B packed with latest weapons and avionics. They are not looking for clean-sheet desing and its clever decision, because Tu-160 still has a lot of development potential. Considering the age of Russian bombers, they also need quantity, not only quality (to replace old fleet), so hyperultracostly solution like B-2 is worthless for them.

When is the next gen USAF bomber slated to rollout?

 

[Hobbes]

When is the next gen USAF bomber slated to rollout?

It rolled out in 1989. The rest of the world still doesn't have anything that comes close. Given the cost of the B-2, I doubt Russia can afford to approach B-2 levels of technology in this PAK-DA.

 

[Sundog]

The Russian Air Force may receive its first PAK DA next generation long-range bomber about 2020 instead of 2025 as initially planned, Russia’s acting deputy Air Force commander, Major General Alexander Chernyayev, has said.

So the ChiComs have 2 stealth fighters in development. Russia has the Pak Fa in development. And my country had to scrap the worlds finest finest fighter at 187 copes (probably down to 183 copies not with current incidents), and the rest of the world is in full scale modernization mode. The last bomber we built was limited to 21 copies, which were built during the 3rd largest period of economic boom-times that our nation experienced. Now, matters are worse. I really hope the -35 is good enough, as well as the new variant of missiles in their various stages development.
I know we have some whiz-bang ucavs in the works, but pound-for-pound, a heavy long range VLO bomber armed with VLO stand off weapons would be a better route. Heavy bombers can hit any target on the planet, from any airbase on the planet, and UCAVs have ranges on par with the standoff weapons that heavy bombers carry.
What do you current crop of young guys have to say on the state of affairs in this newest arms race?

Hell, we still don't have a 187 fighters with full capabilities and we're still working on making it so the pilots can breathe when they fly them. Granted, until you operate in that environment, you can't always predict what will happen. But it will be a long time before our 187 fighters will have all the systems they are supposed to have. Given what that cost us, what both the Chinese and Russians are finding out is that developing an LO air superiority fighter is more expensive and more difficult than they originally planned. By the time either of them have a credible counter force in any numbers worth considering we'll being developing our replacement for the Raptor; provided we can afford it.

Of course, given that Russia is looking at only building 250 of the PAK-FA, I'll believe it when I see it, and given the size of the continent they have to defend when compared to the U.S., it's hardly anything to worry about. Also, it really doesn't matter what China does because we aren't going to do anything to compromise big biz access to China. If they invade Taiwan there will be a lot of sturm and drang and then all of the big players will get back to doing business.

 

[tacitblue]

+1 To all you said. Still, I think the China buildup is more than about invading Taiwan. It's part of it, but not the whole story. They, I believe, want to prject power in the same fashion as the USA, but only for all the wrong reasons.

 

[famvburg]

I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure it was 1988.

When is the next gen USAF bomber slated to rollout?

It rolled out in 1989. The rest of the world still doesn't have anything that comes close. Given the cost of the B-2, I doubt Russia can afford to approach B-2 levels of technology in this PAK-DA.

 

[TsrJoe]

+1 To all you said. Still, I think the China buildup is more than about invading Taiwan. It's part of it, but not the whole story. They, I believe, want to prject power in the same fashion as the USA, but only for all the wrong reasons.

dunno bout 'the wrong reasons', the same ones perhaps?
new technology IS very expensive, if you add LO and all that entails it makes it prohibatively so for most nations. (probably why Europe has nothing in the design stages currently?)
Heres hoping Russia develops a 'clean sheet' bomber for the mid century timescale, as noted an upgraded Tu.160 'Blackjack' fleet should see them through til then

cheers, Joe

 

[bobbymike]

New Russian Bomber Seen Entering Service in "Not-so-Distant Future"

July 19, 2012


A senior Russian air force official said his service would take charge relatively soon of a planned extended-distance bomber aircraft, ITAR-Tass reported on Thursday (see GSN, July 2). “A new long-range aircraft is being designed in close cooperation with the defense industry, using the latest scientific and technological achievements,” Russian long-range aviation head Maj. Gen. Anatoly Zhikharev said. The aircraft would enter Russia's air force “in a not-so-distant future,” Zhikharev added. The officer previously said his nation would place the plane on duty no later than 2025. “The new bomber will have high fighting efficiency, low radar visibility and will be able to get through model air defenses during combat missions,” Zhikharev stated. “The aircraft will be provided with up-to-date electronic warfare systems and high precision weapons with no match in the world in terms of effectiveness” (ITAR-Tass, July 19).

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Russia considering unmanned strategic bomber for deployment in the 2040s

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2012/08/russia-considering-unmanned-st.html

 

[dark sidius]

Recent article on the Russian PAK DA say "they will consider hypersonic technology for the new bomber"

 

[Arjen]

The DEW Line published an item on PAK-DA, prior to the item linked to by XP67_Moonbat.

Drawing from The Dew Line <edit> previously publihed here: http://paralay.com/t60.html , Avimimus got that quicker than me</edit>:

 

[Avimimus]

That's a nice drawing Paralay!

 

[bobbymike]

Russian Hypersonic bomber, Clint Eastwood at the Republican Convention.

If Romney is elected 'Firefox' for real!

 

[Sea Skimmer]

Given how commonly Russian language sources use 'hypersonic' to mean mach 3.0 rather then 5.0 I am more then a bit skeptical Russia is planning to unleash some unprecedented new aircraft.

 

[dark sidius]

More realy a new supersonic bomber with a hypersonic weapon like Brahmos 2.

 

[otxentero]

Hi guys, in a recent visit of the Ministry of Defense, Mr. Shoigu, to Kazan some scale models of aircraft in development where shown, either UAV, etc. Among them there is a model of (apparently) a hypersonic bomber, as unveiled in this blog

http://charly015.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/diseno-no-identificado.html?m=0

I posted it here, regardless it doesn't seem to be the PAK DA. Could anybody help us to identify this project? Sorry if I posted it in the wrong place.

Regards!

 

[flateric]

No, it has nothing to do with PAK DA. This is something much more ordinary, but I'd better wait for official declassification.

 

[Trident]

Agree, considering the other projects shown at the same event, I would expect this to be a new supersonic target drone from Sokol - it would fit both their product range and the configuration of the model quite well.

 

[otxentero]

Thanks guys, I will wait until more info is unveiled.
Regards

 

[lancer21]

I think there is a hypersonic test vehicle to be tested this year at Akhtubinsk, and i THINK it has to do with future hypersonic weapons, i know i've read something about it recently , but beats me if i can remember where, or the name of the vehicle. The vehicle or mock up in the photo looks like it has an underfuselage intake. Scramjet ?

 

[flateric]

It's clearly seen that vehicle also has nothing to do with hypersonics.
You right about intake placement though.

 

[kaiserbill]

In the first picture, what are the 2 cylindrical objects with front covers in the top left of the photo that look like jet engines?

If so, which Russian design apart from the Il-62 uses a close coupled engine layout like that?

EDIT: I see from the second picture that it appears to be a Tu-160 seen from port at the 7 or 8 o'clock position.

 

[flateric]

Correct

 

[Grey Havoc]

Decoy drone of some sort?

 

[piko1]

most likely long-range, high-altitude supersonic strategic reconnaissance drone to replace Reys / Reys-D
i don't know why but this model looks familiar

 

[Grey Havoc]

most likely long-range, high-altitude supersonic strategic reconnaissance drone to replace Reys / Reys-D
i don't know why but this model looks familiar

I had the same strange feeling.

 

[PlanesPictures]

New Tupolev's flying wing as Russian strategic bomber? Do you have some infos?

 

[famvburg]

This? http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8714.msg77819.html#msg77819

 

[Vahe Demirjian]

This? http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8714.msg77819.html#msg77819

That's an old source. The 2006 book on Tupolev aircraft doesn't mention whether Tupolev considered a stealth bomber design based on the Tu-404 or whether the illustrator was just making ad hoc assumptions about the state of stealth aircraft technology in the USSR at the time of its collapse. If Tupolev did plan a stealth bomber derived from the Tu-404, it would have been as expensive as the B-2 and it would have used the primitive fly-by-wire technology that is used on the Tu-160.

We don't know whether the PAK DA will be similar to the New Generation Bomber in shape or whether it will resemble the Tu-160 but fly at Mach 4 and carry hypersonic cruise missiles (see http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-121114-rianovosti01.htm for full details). Nonetheless, while a flying wing PAK DA seems plausible, the Russians probably seem to be aware that a flying wing bomber will be as expensive as the Sukhoi T-50. Nevertheless, thanks to Vladimir Putin, the economic situation in the post-Soviet era has reached the point where Russia can spend 1/25th of their defense budget on a stealth bomber or even a bomber as fast as the F-103 Thunderwarrior.

Time will tell if the final design of the PAK DA will break the US monopoly on stealth bomber technology. If so, then China may be compelled to escalate its nascent stealth bomber program and North Korea could exploit its lack of progress in deploying an ICBM by developing a Mach 4 stealth bomber as an alternative means of attacking the west coast of the US.

 

[flateric]

New Tupolev's flying wing as Russian strategic bomber? Do you have some infos?

B-2sh LO flying wing, yes. At least at current stage, as leaked by VP Rogozin. All program info is classified.

 

[PlanesPictures]

I see it so:


T-10(Su-27) + T-200 ==> Tu-160


PAKFA + Sukhoi's PAKDA ==> Tupolev's PAKDA

 

[chuck4]

.........North Korea could exploit its lack of progress in deploying an ICBM by developing a Mach 4 stealth bomber as an alternative means of attacking the west coast of the US.

Are you kidding me????????????? You think it is easier to develop a Mach 4 transpacific stealth bomber than an ICBM?????? ??? ???

 

[flateric]

Just to feed crowd's need for placeholder something - from TsAGI promo reel ;D

 

[PlanesPictures]

OK, but this one and super stealth - never

 

[Retrofit]

From Flight International today:

Russia to replace current bombers with subsonic flying wing
"The Russian air force has selected a subsonic Tupolev flying wing proposal as the basis for its PAK-DA long-range bomber programme, according to command sources quoted by local media. If confirmed, the choice would end a long campaign by deputy prime minister Dmitry Rogozin to develop a hypersonic aircraft, which appears to have been abandoned as technically incompatible with the air force's insistence on extended-range performance and stealth characteristics.
Moscow announced a competition for bomber designs during 2012. Its programme "attracted several proposals from various design bureaus, including the Tupolev flying-wing design and at least one hypersonic proposal", a defence ministry source told the Izvestia newspaper.
A blended fuselage flying-wing design will permit installation of the engines inside the aircraft, maximising stealth and minimising the aircraft's infrared signature, air force sources say.
"Given the timescale, the general state of the Russian aerospace sector, the demands being placed upon it, and the likely available funding, a high-speed option was unlikely to be favoured given the enormous technical risk," says Douglas Barrie, air warfare analyst with the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies. "Hypersonics may feature as part of the PAK-DA programme, but as strike weapons carried within the aircraft's internal bay or bays."
Last year, Rogozin announced the formation of a joint-venture between Tactical Missiles Corporation and NPO Mashinostroyenia to research hypersonic technology.
Tupolev will complete an outline proposal for the aircraft and present a budget proposal for detailed design work by the start of 2014. Production is due to begin by 2020, with the type expected to eventually replace the air force's Tupolev Tu-95 and Tu-160 bombers.
"Even taking the 'conservative' option, the timescale for development of the bomber remains ambitious," Barrie says.
Rogozin had long championed a hypersonic design for Russia's future bomber requirement. Speaking in August 2012, he noted: "The question is: will we copy the Americans' 40-year experience and create a [Northrop Grumman] B-2 analog? Or will we go down a new, ultra-modern technology route, looking to the horizon, and create a machine able to penetrate air defences and carry out a strike on any aggressor?"

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/russia-to-replace-current-bombers-with-subsonic-flying-wing-383065/

 

[Grey Havoc]

Could this possibly be a 'maskirovka' exercise?

 

[Retrofit]

I was just wondering what's the meaning of "maskirovka"

From Wikipedia: The Russian loanword maskirovka (literally: disguise, camouflage, concealment) is used to describe the Soviet Union and Russia's military doctrine of surprise through deception, in which camouflage plays a significant role.

 

[Vahe Demirjian]

From Flight International today:

Russia to replace current bombers with subsonic flying wing
"The Russian air force has selected a subsonic Tupolev flying wing proposal as the basis for its PAK-DA long-range bomber programme, according to command sources quoted by local media. If confirmed, the choice would end a long campaign by deputy prime minister Dmitry Rogozin to develop a hypersonic aircraft, which appears to have been abandoned as technically incompatible with the air force's insistence on extended-range performance and stealth characteristics.
Moscow announced a competition for bomber designs during 2012. Its programme "attracted several proposals from various design bureaus, including the Tupolev flying-wing design and at least one hypersonic proposal", a defence ministry source told the Izvestia newspaper.
A blended fuselage flying-wing design will permit installation of the engines inside the aircraft, maximising stealth and minimising the aircraft's infrared signature, air force sources say.
"Given the timescale, the general state of the Russian aerospace sector, the demands being placed upon it, and the likely available funding, a high-speed option was unlikely to be favoured given the enormous technical risk," says Douglas Barrie, air warfare analyst with the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies. "Hypersonics may feature as part of the PAK-DA programme, but as strike weapons carried within the aircraft's internal bay or bays."
Last year, Rogozin announced the formation of a joint-venture between Tactical Missiles Corporation and NPO Mashinostroyenia to research hypersonic technology.
Tupolev will complete an outline proposal for the aircraft and present a budget proposal for detailed design work by the start of 2014. Production is due to begin by 2020, with the type expected to eventually replace the air force's Tupolev Tu-95 and Tu-160 bombers.
"Even taking the 'conservative' option, the timescale for development of the bomber remains ambitious," Barrie says.
Rogozin had long championed a hypersonic design for Russia's future bomber requirement. Speaking in August 2012, he noted: "The question is: will we copy the Americans' 40-year experience and create a [Northrop Grumman] B-2 analog? Or will we go down a new, ultra-modern technology route, looking to the horizon, and create a machine able to penetrate air defences and carry out a strike on any aggressor?"

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/russia-to-replace-current-bombers-with-subsonic-flying-wing-383065/

For a technical and financial point of view, Russia seems to have been aware of the fact that hypersonic air-breathing technology is still not at the point where it can be used to power a new generation of civil and military aircraft, so fuel efficiency and stealthiness have once again trumped speed. This decision is similar to the situation where the USAF chose not to develop a new supersonic bomber as a replacement for the B-52, B-1B, and B-2.

Although Russia's new strategic bomber is expected to the Russian equivalent of the American NGB, it's ironic that the Russian military has been seriously falling behind the US and Western Europe in developing an X-45/X-46/X-47 style UCAV technology demonstrator or even a dedicated flying wing UAV that can spy on enemy territory undetected.

If Tupolev's flying wing bomber ever flies, it could be a reprieve for the Tupolev PSC in the military arena because the Tu-334 was reportedly cancelled a few years ago and its recent airliner projects had lost out to the Irkut MS-21 and Sukhoi Superjet. Add to that none of Tupolev's planned business jets ever made to the completion stage, so time will tell whether the famous Tupolev name will ever outlive the 100th anniversary of its founding.

 

[dark sidius]

Its impossible to compare with LRS-B because all of it is classified, there is no informations of it, nobody will know what look like the new futur american bomber. For Russian Pak -da may be its a part of disinformations, Russian minister d'ont want a B-2 like twenty years old design. USAF generals says this years B-2 soon can't penetrate denied airspace, so how can you do with the same design its impossible, a subsonic fying wing can't survive with modern Sam's or 5th gen fighters in defence, now stealth is not enough to do the job, at least you must penetrate with a supersonic stealth plane in the same order of the F-22 with supercruise, with the great distance and the lot of time of subsonic bomber fly to go on the objectives, it can't be a solution for futur.

 

[Avimimus]

I supose this means no supersonic capability (e.g. Mach 2.2)? Probably makes sense. Mobility helps avoid interception though - going completely subsonic means reliance on stealth and/or escort.

I was just wondering what's the meaning of "maskirovka"

From Wikipedia: The Russian loanword maskirovka (literally: disguise, camouflage, concealment) is used to describe the Soviet Union and Russia's military doctrine of surprise through deception, in which camouflage plays a significant role.

My understanding is that maskirovka simply means anything other than using a completely direct approach without camouflauge, feints, or other measures to influence the information available to an enemy. Basically - a lot of things taken for granted in the West.

However, during the Cold War the word gained widespread use as a loanword (with an emphasis on 'surprise through deception' and implications of the 'treacherous' nature of the global communist conspiracy... etc.)

Russian language experts (and experts on the American Cold War press) - please feel free to correct me.