PAK DA ""Poslannik" program - Tupolev 'Izdeliye 80' bomber

[Josh_TN]

Actually the thrust of two unaugmented Tu-160 engines would be almost perfectly in line with unaugmented F135s, and 30k pounds / 15 metric tons payload would be basically what the USAF is hinting at for B-21. I suspect the two machines will look very much alike, since the geometry of the original B-2 design (before the saw tooth, low altitude mod) is rather ideal for smallest number of reflecting angles and aerodynamic efficiency. I suspect H-20 will look exactly the same for the same reason. You only go cranked kite or something more complex shape wise if you are scaling smaller or going for superior kinetic performance. If you accept subsonic and bomber sized airframe as requirements, there isn't a better geometry for low RCS.

 

[tequilashooter]

Hey if it ends up being bigger than the B-2 and the several orders of magnitude RCS reduction gets pulled up again kudos to them but I think that will be more against a lot of board users narratives regarding other stealth foreign projects

 

[Josh_TN]

Low RCS should be much easier to achieve shape wise in a bomber that has lower maneuverability requirements. In fighters, the low RCS requirement runs up against other performance needs.

 

[tequilashooter]

Источник: ПАК ДА получит комплекс обороны, который защитит его от всех видов оружия

По словам собеседника агентства, при создании перспективного бомбардировщика особый акцент делается на защите самолета от ПВО и ПРО противника с помощью средств радиоэлектронной борьбы

tass.ru

According to the interlocutor of the agency, when creating a promising bomber, special emphasis is placed on protecting the aircraft from air defense and missile defense of the enemy using electronic warfare

MOSCOW, June 9. / TASS /. The promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA), which is being developed at PJSC Tupolev, will receive the most advanced defense complex that will protect the aircraft from all types of weapons. A source in the military-industrial complex told TASS about it.

According to the interlocutor of the agency, when creating a promising bomber, special emphasis is placed on protecting the aircraft from air defense and missile defense of the enemy using electronic warfare. "A completely new airborne defense system is being developed for PAK DA, which will protect it from all types of weapons - radar and optical," he said.

According to him, the promising bomber will carry only intra-fuselage weapons, including long-range missiles. "This will allow the aircraft not to enter the enemy's air defense zone, to hit designated targets from the world's oceans or from the territory of another state," the agency's interlocutor said, adding that a prototype PAK DA is being manufactured. TASS has no official comment on this matter.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Engines for PAK-DA are Izdeliye RF, derived from the NK-32 (Izdeliye R).

 

[sferrin]

So is it going to have 2 engines or 4?

This, gonna needs to wait.

If one willing to speculate tho, for fuel efficiency, infra red signature reduction and acoustic, a high bypass engine would be preferrable, and considering subsonic speed. Something like PD-24 or if one went for extreme but i wonder about the inner volume constraint, PD-35.

Those engines, assuming 2 of those and B-2 like T/W ratio of about 0.2 will allow MTOW to be in order of 240-350 metric tonne.

Rumours put it like this:

- MTOW of 145-150t (smaller than B-2)
- 2 engines with close to 230 kN of thrust each
- 30t of payload
- range of 15000km

First flight is supposed to happen in 2023 (this is from official documentation)

Interesting information Acatomic. So the PAK-DA will be smaller than the B-2 in terms of Maximum Take Off Weight, and be able to carry 30 tonnes of payload and fly with a range of 15000km. I wonder how this compares to the existing Tu-160? Better or worse in terms of how much payload can be carried.

Something doesn't add up. Smaller than the B-2, 30t payload, 15000km and 52,000lb thrust engines? Burns more fuel than a B-2 but carries the same payload further with less fuel? Really?

 

[Grey Havoc]

Some form of PDE or something even more exotic?

 

[Josh_TN]

More likely at least one of those figures is incorrect / was garbled in the translation. It seems exceedingly unlikely all of those stats could line up with current tech.

 

[Acatomic]

@sferrin

Lower/smaller MTOW than B-2.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

A moderator removed some off-topic posts from this topic.

 

[tequilashooter]

Катапультное кресло ПАК ДА получит парашют увеличенной площади

Гендиректор НПП "Звезда" Сергей Поздняков сообщил, что еще одной особенностью кресла будет программа блока управления катапультированием

tass.ru

The ejection seat, which is created for a promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA), will be equipped with a parachute of increased area. This was reported to TASS at the International Aviation and Space Salon (MAKS) by the general director of NPP "Zvezda" Sergey Pozdnyakov.

"Now a parachute of an increased area is being created, because when there is a parachute and landing of a pilot of a large mass not at ocean level or zero, but at 1000-1500 meters, the fall rate is higher and the dome area is needed more," Pozdnyakov said.
According to the general director of the enterprise, a prototype of the parachute is being manufactured. Another feature of the chair will be the program of the ejection control unit, since the car is multi-seated.
In December 2019, Deputy Minister of Defense of Russia Alexei Krivoruchko in an interview with the newspaper "Krasnaya Zvezda" said that the preliminary design of the PAK DA aircraft was approved and TUPOLEV PJSC began to develop working design documentation. In May 2020, TASS sources reported that the production of the first prototype of the new "strategist" had begun.

 

[Grey Havoc]

From December 2020:

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/15120/aerospace-magazine-december-2020.pdf

 

[Scar]

From December 2020:

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/15120/aerospace-magazine-december-2020.pdf

The author has confused Yury Slyusar, the chairman of UAC, with Denis Manturov who's the head of Ministry of Industry and Trade.

 

[TR1]

Some info re. NK-32M, weight reduction up to 15%, fuel consumption reduction 8-10%:

 

[LMFS]

Reposting in English




There was some speculation about the point 2.7 where it talks about nozzle optimization for M = 2.1, and also the reference to fuel consumption BFR/FR which should relate to w/o and w/ AB engaged. So the plane is a supersonic in the end? How do we get to see a table with all that information from such secretive development?

 

[Acatomic]

- Will the promising long-range aviation complex be in the new GPV?

- Work on PAK DA is on schedule and is provided with the necessary funding in full for the entire period of implementation of the state contract. The supply of this aircraft will be provided for by a new weapons program. Two prototypes of the PAK DA engine have been manufactured, their bench tests have begun. During them, the characteristics of the terms of reference were confirmed.

Now all the efforts of Tupolev PJSC are focused on launching the production of the Tu-160M, the first flight of which is possible this year. In addition, the modernization of Tu-95MS and Tu-22M3 aircraft continues.

The new State Armament Program will set tasks for PJSC Tupolev to interface their equipment with drones and equip aircraft with new types of weapons.

Первый зампред коллегии ВПК: новая программа вооружения изменит облик российской армии

Андрей Ельчанинов рассказал о гиперзвуковой ракете на Су-57 и новом летающем радаре А-100

www.interfax.ru

 

[FighterJock]

Things are looking good for PAK-DA.

 

[Acatomic]

To me it looks like Pak-DA and B-21 programs are almost running in parallel B-21 first flight next year - Pak-DA first flight 2023/24.

 

[muttbutt]

To me it looks like Pak-DA and B-21 programs are almost running in parallel B-21 first flight next year - Pak-DA first flight 2023/24.

Chinese one should be coming along soonish too...

 

[Rhinocrates]

To me it looks like Pak-DA and B-21 programs are almost running in parallel B-21 first flight next year - Pak-DA first flight 2023/24.

Chinese one should be coming along soonish too...

Typical! You wait ages and then three come at once!

Ah, that'll be my coat.

 

[GARGEAN]

To me it looks like Pak-DA and B-21 programs are almost running in parallel B-21 first flight next year - Pak-DA first flight 2023/24.

Don't think so tbh. It looks like PAK-DA will fly later, considering only one who can really play with it is Tupolev and they already have their hands full

 

[Scar]

To me it looks like Pak-DA and B-21 programs are almost running in parallel B-21 first flight next year - Pak-DA first flight 2023/24.

Don't think so tbh. It looks like PAK-DA will fly later, considering only one who can really play with it is Tupolev and they already have their hands full

I concur. Have a feeling PAK DA maiden flight will happen closer to 2030. But may be i'm too sceptical...?

 

[FighterJock]

I would guess that the PAK-DA would fly in the mid decade 2025 a more conservative estimate.

 

[Josh_TN]

B-21 definitely seems further ahead. Not necessarily by a lot but it seems fairly assured the first example is completed next year, even if it doesn’t end up flying, and there are a larger number of total examples in states of construction (five). I’ve no idea where H-20 is. Have there been any recent statements or press releases? I suspect that one takes the longest since it is the first PLA-AF bomber built from scratch. But the US and Russia for instance could use variants of engines in production; not sure the Chinese have anything off the shelf that fits the bill.

 

[FighterJock]

B-21 definitely seems further ahead. Not necessarily by a lot but it seems fairly assured the first example is completed next year, even if it doesn’t end up flying, and there are a larger number of total examples in states of construction (five). I’ve no idea where H-20 is. Have there been any recent statements or press releases? I suspect that one takes the longest since it is the first PLA-AF bomber built from scratch. But the US and Russia for instance could use variants of engines in production; not sure the Chinese have anything off the shelf that fits the bill.

Agreed that the B-21 will be completed next year, but whether it flys in the first quarter or second quarter of the year is open to question, the next to fly will be the PAK-DA then the H-20, true there has been no official news from the PLAAF concerning how the H-20 is getting on in terms of engine and airframe design.

 

[Acatomic]

To me it looks like Pak-DA and B-21 programs are almost running in parallel B-21 first flight next year - Pak-DA first flight 2023/24.

Don't think so tbh. It looks like PAK-DA will fly later, considering only one who can really play with it is Tupolev and they already have their hands full

I concur. Have a feeling PAK DA maiden flight will happen closer to 2030. But may be i'm too sceptical...?

Timeline from 2018 contract :







Again from here: https://redsamovar.com/2020/06/10/actu-lizd-80-pak-da-ou-en-est-on/

 

[Scar]

Timeline from 2018 contract

Excuse me my ignorance, but what is 80-1BRL and 80-1RP? AFAIK, NII Ekran is a developer of some electronic equipement, which probably can be tested w/o PAK DA airframe as it was made with a A-100 radar designed by Vega and tested on the testbed aircraft.

But again, i'm not sure, just have such a feeling that PAK DA maiden flight will happen not before 2025. Will be glad to be surprised and proved wrong.

 

[FighterJock]

But again, i'm not sure, just have such a feeling that PAK DA maiden flight will happen not before 2025. Will be glad to be surprised and proved wrong.

I too would like to be proven wrong if the PAK-DA bomber is to be revealed sooner than 2025, it all depends on how things are in respect to the Tu-160 modernisation and the Tu-160M2.

 

[Scar]

it all depends on how things are in respect to the Tu-160 modernisation and the Tu-160M2.

Exactly, this is what gives me this feeling. IMO, currently Tupolev and KAPO have too much of workload due to Tu-160 production restart.
But again, this is just my subjective feeling which i can't prove with some hard facts.

 

[Acatomic]

Excuse me my ignorance, but what is 80-1BRL and 80-1RP? AFAIK, NII Ekran is a developer of some electronic equipement, which probably can be tested w/o PAK DA airframe as it was made with a A-100 radar designed by Vega and tested on the testbed aircraft.

But again, i'm not sure, just have such a feeling that PAK DA maiden flight will happen not before 2025. Will be glad to be surprised and proved wrong.

I don't know what BRL and RP stand for.

Exactly, this is what gives me this feeling. IMO, currently Tupolev and KAPO have too much of workload due to Tu-160 production restart.
But again, this is just my subjective feeling which i can't prove with some hard facts.

My understanding is that, among other things, it was necessary to restart Tu-160 production in order for the new factory workers to gain some experience in building PAK-DA.

 

[Scar]

it was necessary to restart Tu-160 production in order for the new factory workers to gain some experience in building PAK-DA.

And this your point can't be more right, than it is. But it's just...too much for Tupolev, at one time - Tu-160 production restart + PAK DA. This is what gives my this subjective feeling.

 

[LMFS]

Exactly, this is what gives me this feeling. IMO, currently Tupolev and KAPO have too much of workload due to Tu-160 production restart.
But again, this is just my subjective feeling which i can't prove with some hard facts.

It is already customary of Russian MIC and also according to best practices to create a B plan before embarking in an all new, high risk military development. Even if the program progresses smoothly, it is almost unavoidable that such complex and lengthy task does not face delays of several years, because it is simply impossible to foresee all that may happen and all the unknowns that affect schedule during the initial planing phase. So having the Tu-160M in production not only allows to restart Tupolev's, Kuznetsov's and other industrial capabilities, but also gives VKS a modern strategic missile carrier for many years to come, freeing the PAK-DA program from critical pressure and allowing to proceed with a more relaxed schedule with more quality, lower costs and fewer technical risks.

 

[TR1]

I have a feeling it was VKS realizing it was either no PAK-DA in serial production for another 10 years (back in 2015, still relevant today IMO) and they would have to make do with Tu-160M, or nothing at all. UAC has mostly dusted off Soviet era planes or programs anyways, so par the course for them. Plus, let's not forget "tatarstan mafia" always lobbying for state contracts for their factories.

Of course we are still years from stable Tu-160 production, so at the end of the day the timelines might not make much sense in retrospect. Strategic fleet is big regardless and will gladly take any new airframes it can get.

 

[X-39]

(PAYWALL)

Russia Pushes Ahead with New Strategic Bomber | Aviation Week Network

Tupolev’s PAK DA strategic bomber program aims to fly its first prototype in 2024.

aviationweek.com

 

[Deino]

Allegedly from this patent …

 

[stealthflanker]

The Patent source :

RU209424U1 - ВОЗДУХОЗАБОРНИК ДВИГАТЕЛЯ САМОЛЕТА - Яндекс.Патенты

Патент RU209424U1: Полезная модель относится к авиастроению и может быть использована при создании конструкций самолетов, в которых воздухозаборник двигателя в самолете содержит входное устройство (2), расположенное возле передней кромки (3) крыла, соединенное с воздуховодом (4), проходящим...

yandex.ru

 

[Josh_TN]

Isn't PAK-DA supposed to use an updated version of the KN-32? That image displays only two engines, which would imply a smaller/lighter aircraft than had been rumored (if one assumes the image is legitimate which seems very questionable).

 

[stealthflanker]

Isn't PAK-DA supposed to use an updated version of the KN-32? That image displays only two engines, which would imply a smaller/lighter aircraft than had been rumored (if one assumes the image is legitimate which seems very questionable).

Well, what's wrong with 2 engines tho ? NK-32 have a "dry" nonafterburning thrust of 31000 Lbf asuming the NK-32M is used and retaining that figure. It's already more than F-118 for B-2's. and 2 of them already matched the rating for B-2.

 

[Josh_TN]

I thought I read somewhere it was rumored that it would be an aircraft larger than B-2 with four engines. Though obviously we don't have any firm information. Wiki lists the F-118 at 19,000 lbs and NK-32 at 32,000 lbs, so I would think two KN32s likely couldn't power something the size of the B-2. But perhaps they are going the same route as the US and creating a slightly smaller design with two engines.

 

[LMFS]

PAK-DA seems to me more of a conventional bomber (that Russia currently lacks) than a strategic missile carrier, a role for which the Tu-160M is and will be superior in almost any sense and which does not seem to demand penetration of the enemy's AD, given the developments of increasingly longer ranged missiles. It can be a versatile platform with many uses from ISR to UAV control or comms relaying, EW, maritime patrol and many others, with focus on low detectability/high survivability in contested environments and very high persistence/range. Hence it being relatively compact and having two engines instead of four for better operational economy would make certainly lots of sense.