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Oerlikon SAMs

Petrus

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Interestingly, in the 1950s the Swiss Oerlikon company designed several surface-to-air missiles. Here are links to very few websites that contain any information on the projects:

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/mx-1868.html

http://waffen-der-welt.alices-world.de/missiles/sam/ch_rsd.html

http://www.ttu.fr/site/english/endocpdf/missilesuccess2.pdf (you must scroll down up to 'RSC and Micon')

The first of the above-mentioned websites says that besides the US who bought the Oerlikon missiles for testing they were used by Sweden, Italy and Japan. Is it true? If so, did any of the coutries that had purchased them used them operationally?

I would be very grateful for any info on the Oerlikon SAMs, including their pictures.

Best regards,
Piotr
 

Andreas Parsch

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Petrus said:
The first of the above-mentioned websites says that besides the US who bought the Oerlikon missiles for testing they were used by Sweden, Italy and Japan. Is it true? If so, did any of the coutries that had purchased them used them operationally?

I wrote the first of the linked articles. It's been a while, and I don't remember exactly where I found the info about Sweden, Italy and Japan. It was either Bill Gunston's "Missile Encyclopedia" (likely) and/or an old "Jane's". I'll try to track down the source tonight (if I don't forget about it ::) ). That said, I'm pretty sure the source did not mention how many missiles were sold or how they were used (if at all!).

And it's of course possible that one or more of the sources I used for the article are just plain wrong. It has happened before, and if someone can provide a definite history of the RSC missile family on the international market, I'd be happy to revise my webpage :).

Regards
Andreas
 

Andreas Parsch

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Andreas Parsch said:
I wrote the first of the linked articles. It's been a while, and I don't remember exactly where I found the info about Sweden, Italy and Japan. It was either Bill Gunston's "Missile Encyclopedia" (likely) and/or an old "Jane's". I'll try to track down the source tonight (if I don't forget about it ::) ). That said, I'm pretty sure the source did not mention how many missiles were sold or how they were used (if at all!).

Ok, I've looked. The info that RSC variants (-54 and/or -56) were in service with Sweden, Italy, Switzerland and Japan is from

Frederick I. Ordway III, Ronald C. Wakeford: "International Missile and Spacecraft Guide", 1960 .

Gunston only says that RSC/RSD-57 and -58 were used by Italy, Sweden and Japan for "training purposes".

Ordway/Wakeford is an invaluable source for 1950s missiles, but there are a few errors in it. So the info on the use of the Oerlikon missiles could be incorrect.


Andreas
 

EEP1A

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Petrus said:
The first of the above-mentioned websites says that besides the US who bought the Oerlikon missiles for testing they were used by Sweden, Italy and Japan. Is it true? If so, did any of the coutries that had purchased them used them operationally?

I would be very grateful for any info on the Oerlikon SAMs, including their pictures.

In August 1958, Japanese Self Defense Force received the Oerlikon missiles for testing. At that time, they were developing indigenous surface to air missile and to fill the technological gap after the WW2, they decided to purchase missile available then for reference.
The picture was taken by me 22 years ago at the Gifu Air Base, north of Nagoya. It was retired long ago and was displayed there.
As you can see from the chart, taken from the official history of TRDI (Technical Research and Development Institute) of Japanese Defense Agency (sorry it is in Japanese), they began indigenous SAM development from 31st year of Showa (1956) and in 33rd (1958) they bought Oerlikon for reference and in 35th (1960) and 36th (1961), they made the prototype SAM called TSAM-1. But the Japanese decided to introduce Nike Ajax, and later on HAWK, Nike Hercules (called Nike-J) and Patriot SAMs.

But from this year (March 2007), Japanese capital is defended by indigenous SAM, the Type03 medium range SAM. (See picture also taken by me)

EEP1A
 

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Petrus

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Thank you for information and pictures.

Best regards,
Piotr
 

sferrin

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http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1955/1955%20-%200007.pdf



Looks like many of us will be busy the next little while. :D
 

Petrus

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sferrin said:
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1955/1955%20-%200007.pdf



Looks like many of us will be busy the next little while. :D

It would be great to see the next page ;-)...

Piotr
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Did you try

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1955/1955%20-%200008.pdf
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1955/1955%20-%200009.pdf

;D

?
 

Petrus

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Lots of thanks. It's very interesting.

Regards,
Piotr
 

Pioneer

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Sorry, but I obviously missed this Interesting topic/subject!

For years I too have been looking for solid information as to the actual operation capability of the RSC/RSD-57 and RSD-58 SAM systems!
For their era they seem very attractive designs.
I can't help wonder how much post-WWII German scientific/engineering might have gone into these systems?

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Pioneer
 

cardonet

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You may try this
https://archive.org/stream/missilesrockets2195unse#page/n1551
https://archive.org/stream/missilesrockets5195unse#page/n259
 

Pioneer

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Why thank you cardonet!
What an historical find! ;)

Regards
Pioneer
 

Pioneer

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So, can anyone clarify why the RSC/RSD-57 and RSD-58 series failed to gain popularity in militaries?
Can anyone take an educated guess where the capability of the RSC/RSD-57 and RSD-58 would lay in terms of other same era SAM's please?

Regards
Pioneer
 

r3mu511

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^if the article's info still applies that those two SAMs were still using beam-rider guidance in 1959, then accuracy-wise they would be at a disadvantage compared to a semi-active guided US mim-23 hawk which attained IOC in august 1959 (data from designationsystems.net)...

beam-riding guidance would suffer from the divergence and attenuation of the radar beam as the SAM gets closer to the target and distance from the guidance radar increases, whereas with semi-active homing guidance the SAM seeker would receive a tighter beam spread and greater power density the closer it gets to the target since it is receiving the reflected RF energy from the target's surface...

the article also states the rsc/rsd-57/58 SAMs were using liquid-fueled propulsion (with a solid-fuel version in development or "being substituted for the liquid-fuel" at the time of the article's writing), so it would be compared to something like the solid-fuel propelled US mim-23 hawk...

to it's credit the rsc/rsd would outrange the original mim-23, with the rsc/rsd rated at ">20 miles" vs. 15 miles for the mim-23-A version...
 

cardonet

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In fact RSC and RSD gave birth to an improved (solid fueled) system named RSE that was tested during the 1960s.
https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=RSE%20Kriens%20(Missile)&item_type=topic
 

zen

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Liquid fuel has issues, mostly due to it's corrosiveness and the dangers of handling it.
Upside is the rocket chamber is throttle-able and vector-able. Something that is harder for solid fuel rockets.

Beam riding works out to about 30nm, as Sea Slug's upgraded version proves. But depends on the warhead and fuze.

So Oerlikon failed due to no one buying it enough to get the ball rolling, and the later Kriens effort is just too late for the system's technology and too expensive.
 

r3mu511

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^with regards to the divergence of the radar beam for beam riding guidance, one would need to take into account that the Sea Slug used a large Type 901 fire control radar of around 9 ft in diameter... this large diameter antenna apperture would give it a tighter beamwidth of around 0.9 deg (data as per Friedman's "World Naval Weapon Systems", value also ties in reasonably well to the theoretical beamwidth given by the Airy disk formula "~70*wavelength/diameter" for a wavelength at 0.033m, ie. x-band at 9 GHz)... the tighter beamwidth would mean less divergence at range which would thus aid in a beam riding missile's accuracy...

a second factor would be that the Sea Slug had a ~200 lb warhead (as compared to the ~90 lb warhead for the RSC/RSD), this would mean a larger effective kill radius hence giving a larger warhead more "wiggle" room for any accuracy losses at range...
 

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Thank you gents for your knowledge!
I'm looking for a SAM system for an 'Alternative Australian Defence Forces ORBAT', on another forum and was thinking the RSC/RSD-57 and RSD-58 series might have been a good and non-aligned SAM system to counter Indonesia's Tu-16 Badger's!

Regards
Pioneer
 

Petrus

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Japanese SAMs of 1960s

EEP1A said:
In August 1958, Japanese Self Defense Force received the Oerlikon missiles for testing. At that time, they were developing indigenous surface to air missile and to fill the technological gap after the WW2, they decided to purchase missile available then for reference.
The picture was taken by me 22 years ago at the Gifu Air Base, north of Nagoya. It was retired long ago and was displayed there.
As you can see from the chart, taken from the official history of TRDI (Technical Research and Development Institute) of Japanese Defense Agency (sorry it is in Japanese), they began indigenous SAM development from 31st year of Showa (1956) and in 33rd (1958) they bought Oerlikon for reference and in 35th (1960) and 36th (1961), they made the prototype SAM called TSAM-1. But the Japanese decided to introduce Nike Ajax, and later on HAWK, Nike Hercules (called Nike-J) and Patriot SAMs.



EEP1A

In the meantime I have found (at http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/uchyuu_kaihatsu_shi/48859220.html) few pictures of early Japanese (test) missiles: TLRM-1 and TLRM-2. See attachments.

Also I have compiled some data on TLRM-2 (mostly from https://archive.org/details/Aviation_Week_1963-07-15):
Over-all length: 20.3 ft (6.187 m)
2nd state diameter: 16.5 in (0.42 m)
AUW: 730 kg (info on the missiles weight is here: http://kokkai.ndl.go.jp/SENTAKU/syugiin/038/0388/03802070388001a.html, it may be extracted using Google Translate)
1st stage thrust (solid fuel): 12,840 lb (5,825 kgp)
2nd stage thrust (liquid fuel: kerosene and nitric acid in concentric tanks): 2,200 lb (997 kgp)

TSAM-1 missile's dimensions were similar to that of TLRM-2, its weight was 'slightly' lower than that of TLRM-2, 1st stage thrust 12,540 lb (5,688 kgp), 2nd stage thrust 2,200 lb. In addition to the main delta-shaped fins of the 2nd stage TSAM-1 had also four smaller delta fins in the front part thereof (see the drawing attached to http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1898.msg16336.html#msg16336 by EEP1A).

The missiles used beam-riding guidance (possibly developed on the basis of the Oerlikon's system?).

Unfortunately it seems that there is no further informaction on these missiles on the Internet. Perhaps anyone here may add something?

Piotr
 

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cardonet

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Re: Japanese SAMs of 1960s

Petrus said:
Unfortunately it seems that there is no further informaction on these missiles on the Internet. Perhaps anyone here may add something?

Piotr

Additional pictures
http://archive.aviationweek.com/issue/19630729/#!&pid=45
 

Petrus

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Re: Japanese SAMs of 1960s

cardonet said:
Additional pictures
http://archive.aviationweek.com/issue/19630729/#!&pid=45

Very interesting, thank you!
 

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Did anybody able to unearth drawings of the missile, dimensions and about the launcher?
 

moonbeamsts

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Interestingly, in the 1950s the Swiss Oerlikon company designed several surface-to-air missiles. Here are links to very few websites that contain any information on the projects:

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/mx-1868.html

http://waffen-der-welt.alices-world.de/missiles/sam/ch_rsd.html

http://www.ttu.fr/site/english/endocpdf/missilesuccess2.pdf (you must scroll down up to 'RSC and Micon')

The first of the above-mentioned websites says that besides the US who bought the Oerlikon missiles for testing they were used by Sweden, Italy and Japan. Is it true? If so, did any of the coutries that had purchased them used them operationally?

I would be very grateful for any info on the Oerlikon SAMs, including their pictures.

Best regards,
Piotr
Found thishttps://www.wikiwand.com/en/RSA_(missile)
 

madhon

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Thank you gents for your knowledge!
I'm looking for a SAM system for an 'Alternative Australian Defence Forces ORBAT', on another forum and was thinking the RSC/RSD-57 and RSD-58 series might have been a good and non-aligned SAM system to counter Indonesia's Tu-16 Badger's!

Regards
Pioneer

Which forum ?
 

Petrus

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Thankfully I did try and download it when it had been available (now, as you may know something is just happening at flightglobal.com and their archives cannot be accessed; personally I'm afraid they would introduce a paywall there).
Here is the article 'SWISS GUIDED MISSILE. A Revealing Description of the Oerlikon Ground-to-Air Guided Missile Type 54' from the Flight magazine of 7 January 1955.

BR
Piotr

Edit:
The Flight magazine archive is now at https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-international/flight-magazine-archive where you'll see the following annoucement:

As part of the flightglobal.com relaunch, the Flight magazine archive is undergoing maintenance to transition to our new web platform. It will be back online as soon as possible.
Thanks for your patience.
 

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Petrus

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As for the Oerlikon missiles in Japan, here is a note from the "Missiles and Rockets. Magazine of World Astronautics" of August 1957:

Mitsubishi Electric Machinery Co., Ltd., has applied to the Japanese government for permission to pay Buehle Contraves & Company of Switzerland for the patent rights for the production in Japan of Oerlikon guided missiles. A provisional agreeement gives Mitsubishi all the patent rights for the production in Japan of the Oerlikon-56 and its fire control system.
The Swiss firm is asking 8% as patent rights of the Oerlikon missiles and 5% of the revenue from sales of launchers and firing control system. The contract is to be valid for 15 years. It will be two or three years before Mitsubishi can start mass production in Japan of guided missiles because of government permits, preparations and completion of final contracts with the Swiss firm.
The Japanese Defense Agency this fall will import a complete set of Oerlikon-56 rockets and a launcher from the Swiss firm at a cost of $1,080,000 with the aim of studying and testing the Swiss weapon.
 

Petrus

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Additional pictures

As it seems that something wrong has happened to the Aviation Week's archives and their website does not work properly, here are pictures from the "Aviation Week" of 29 July 1963 page 45.

Piotr
 

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Petrus

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(now, as you may know something is just happening at flightglobal.com and their archives cannot be accessed; personally I'm afraid they would introduce a paywall there).

It seems I was right, unfortunately: this is an e-mail I've just received from FlightGlobal that reads:


Dear Piotr,

There is still time to subscribe to FlightGlobal Premium and benefit from our discounted introductory rates.

From 1 July registered users will only be able to read 4 articles for free every month on FlightGlobal. Subscribe now to get full access to the latest award-winning content from FlightGlobal.


Upgrade today to secure the following benefits:​

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20 years + of stories in the FlightGlobal news archive
 

Pioneer

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Thank you gents for your knowledge!
I'm looking for a SAM system for an 'Alternative Australian Defence Forces ORBAT', on another forum and was thinking the RSC/RSD-57 and RSD-58 series might have been a good and non-aligned SAM system to counter Indonesia's Tu-16 Badger's!

Regards
Pioneer

Which forum ?
Beyond the Sprues


Regards
Pioneer
 

Dilandu

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Thankfully I did try and download it when it had been available (now, as you may know something is just happening at flightglobal.com and their archives cannot be accessed; personally I'm afraid they would introduce a paywall there).

Seems like Wayback Machine could help here. Just tried the link - seems working at least for specific page.
 
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