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Obama Planning to Scrap Shuttle Replacement, Says NASA

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Orionblamblam

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http://www.dailytech.com/Obama+Planning+to+Scrap+Shuttle+Replacement+Says+NASA/article13750.htm

President-Elect Obama's transition team is planning to scrap NASA's Ares program, the successor to the Space Shuttle, say NASA advisors. The transition team is demanding deep cuts from the agency, and is investigating whether old military rockets such as the Delta IV and Atlas V could be used in place of Ares.

Yay. Mr. Science strikes again.

On the campaign trail, Obama blew both hot and cold on plans for NASA's budget. In the NASA-friendly states of Texas and Florida, he promised to expand NASA's budget by more than 10%. In other states, however, he promised cuts and delays to the agency, in order to help fund his education policies.

And Americans actually voted for this guy. Yeeeeesh.


And here's a fun drinking game, if you're into that sort of thing: take a shot every time the journalist who wrote this article makes a factual error. Won't take too long to get smashed!
 

Orionblamblam

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And it's clear that a lot of the factual errors came from the original "Telegraph" article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/3868153/Barack-Obama-under-fire-from-Nasa-over-plans-to-slash-budget.html

The team is also investigating whether military Delta IV and Atlas V rockets, already more than 20 years old, could be adapted more cheaply. Nasa insiders say that that possibility was rejected years ago because the military rockets are not safe enough for manned flights.

1: The Delta IV and Atlas V are not more than 20 years old.
2: There's no such thing as "Nasa." I don't know what the hell it is with British "journalists," but they can't seem to understand that NASA is not a name, it's an acronym.
 

flateric

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We'd grab all photos&docs from the web before February, what should I say...
May be they thought that NASA should put astronauts on Redstones (if those Russians use 50s R-7 ancestor still?)
 

Michel Van

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my comment on that....
 

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Antonio

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We'd grab all photos&docs from the web before February, what should I say...

I'm already at work. Ares is quickly entering the Unbuilt Project category.
 

robunos

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President-Elect Obama's transition team is planning to scrap NASA's Ares program, the successor to the Space Shuttle, say NASA advisors.

have to say, i agree. i've always thought that the Ares program was the optimium worst way of continuing the manned space program.
i think that man-rating the Delta IV should be the way to go.
like the Shuttle, the Ares is [was?] a Lexus when what's needed is a Mack truck.

cheers,
Robin.
 

Michel Van

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if we are luck Boeing propose Delta 4 Heavy Upgrade 94 t as Ares replacement...
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/deltaiv.htm

my second comment on That :mad:

Thanks for note Abraham Gubler
i have Corrected the cartoon
 

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Orionblamblam

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Michel Van said:
if we are luck Boeing propose Delta 4 Heavy Upgrade 94 t as Ares replacement...

If we are lucky, someone will remind Obama that cutting NASA spending in order to add even more to the already bloated and ineffective educational system is not only stupid, it is criminally negligent and borderline treasonous. If we are *really* lucky, he'll be indicted before taking office, and President Biden will be cowed into not being a socialist dumbass.

We can't be that lucky.

Obama has already stated that he wants to:
A) Cut NASA spending to help fund education
B) Delay Constellation by five years.

There's no such thing as a "five year delay" in NASA programs. These are more honestly refered to as "cancellation."

Is Ares flawed? Oh, you betcha. Would Delta IV/Atlas V have been a better choice? *Maybe.* It's too late now. Going with them would be a complete wiping of the slate and starting from scratch. Shuttle ends in 2010. This cannot be materially alterred. NASA is already looking at a 4-6 year manned spaceflight gap... and that's with having started Constellation back in 2003 or so. Scrap it and go to a Atlas/Delta option... and the soonest NASA will fly a man in space will be 2020 or so. I have hopes for the private companies such as Virgin and Space-X and XCOR, but with the rabidly anti-profit administration that is coming in, I have great fears about them being able to survive.
 

Abraham Gubler

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The reality is thanks to the unchecked extravagance of the financial sector in the USA and Europe the whole world will have to be tightening belts for the next 2-4 years. Killing off Orion would probably have happened no matter who was in the White House. Hopefully with a refresh they can look at a long term sustainable space transportation system like DC-X rather than man-rating throw-away rockets.
 

Orionblamblam

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Abraham Gubler said:
The reality is thanks to the unchecked extravagance of the financial sector in the USA and Europe ...

"Unchecked extravagance of the financial sector." So that's what the kids are calling Barney Frank's social experimentation in the housing markets these days....
 

starviking

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That is one badly written article all right - I was unaware that the last manned spaceflight gap was in the 60s! The British one seems a bit better.

This Obama vs. NASA thing seems to have arisen out of Mike Griffin's stonewalling of the Obama Transition Team recently. Scuttlebutt on the Space Advocacy side of the Web suggests he's trying to keep Ares I out of the firing line. Whether Ares I should be kept out of that line is another question: Can it work or will good money be fired after bad?
 

Abraham Gubler

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OT Apologies

Orionblamblam said:
"Unchecked extravagance of the financial sector." So that's what the kids are calling Barney Frank's social experimentation in the housing markets these days....

The sub-prime mortgage market was not the cause of the current crisis, it was just the initiator. It was financial practices by banks that are banned in Australia that lead to over exposure to risk and subsequent roll on failures (we have had no financial meltdown in Australia but are of course feeling the effect of the global slowdown in growth).

The "social experimentation” of the sub-prime market has been a part of the US banking system for years. It is a good way to free up more capital for investment and of course provide positive social development for those that benefit from it. The problems were the high risk activity with loan securities by bankers and of course extending sub-prime to include ultra-sub-prime (the infamous $400,000 loans to unemployed).
 

starviking

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Abraham Gubler said:
OT Apologies

The problems were the high risk activity with loan securities by bankers and of course extending sub-prime to include ultra-sub-prime (the infamous $400,000 loans to unemployed).

Is that for real? $400,000 loans? Whoooo! Someone must have been drinking the happy juice!
 

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Here we go again! For the umpteenth bloody time!

When the times are good it is an endless short term viewed seeking of the maximum profit. Not the long term view that will help in the long run i.e.: helping develop a new system to replace the Space Shuttle. And when the times go bad, as they have done it is a cutback to help keep the situation economical and to the politicians' likings.

When is there any room in this world for the dreamer of ideas or will they be forever crushed by the merciless will of economics?

I do despair sometimes...
 

Orionblamblam

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Abraham Gubler said:
The problems were the high risk activity with loan securities by bankers and of course extending sub-prime to include ultra-sub-prime (the infamous $400,000 loans to unemployed).

Indeed so. And these sub-prime loans were a product of groups like ACORN and their lackeys in Congress, demanding that loans be made available to poor people who honestly shouldn't have 'em. Now, the reality is that poor people with bad loans were not the major propblem... it was middle class and even rich people (and even companies) with loans they shouldn't have had. But once the door was opened for the poor, *anybody* could take advantage of the process.
 

Orionblamblam

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dreamstar said:
When is there any room in this world for the dreamer of ideas or will they be forever crushed by the merciless will of economics?

So long as welfare programs are Entitlements and NASA and military programs are Discretionary, the future will always be in peril. Welfare and similar feel good programs are *not* about making the future better, but instead are solely about the here and now. They are not about the future at all, and, indeed, generally work towards making the future *worse*. Government handouts are often enough a great thing, but unless the metric changes from "successful program = the most people helped" to "successful program = the most people who no longer need the program AND who are no longer on it," then these programs have nothign to do except grow and consume more and more of the economy.

NASA, on the other hand, is almost entirely NOT about the here and now, but about the future. Since the here and now votes, while the future doesn't, NASA will forever get the short end of the stick. That's why I often hope for an asteroid impact. Not a planet killer, mind you, just a little one. A few hundred megatons, perhaps. Targeted somewhere uninhabitted.. a desert, perhaps, or maybe Detroit.
 

Orionblamblam

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dreamstar said:
I think Detroit may be glad for the meteorite hit.

Indeed. Every now and again, for something to be made better, the existing structures need to be knocked down. Detroit, at least sizable portions of it, is one of those places.

http://detroityes.com/home.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sweetjuniper/sets/72157603302647339/


Degtroit, for those of you unfamiliar, is a city in the US with a *lot* of problems. A commonly expressed view is that it's a great city to be from. It shares much in common with New Orleans; both are cities of vast political corruption, where the welfare state has taken over to a large degree. New Orleans got the opportunity to be fixed after huricane Katrina washed it away; but rather than learning the lessons of history, weather and geology, and simply *abandoning* parts of the city that needed to be abandoned, people have refused to let it go. But Detroit *has* been abandoned to a large degree.
 

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Orionblamblam said:
Abraham Gubler said:
The problems were the high risk activity with loan securities by bankers and of course extending sub-prime to include ultra-sub-prime (the infamous $400,000 loans to unemployed).

Indeed so. And these sub-prime loans were a product of groups like ACORN and their lackeys in Congress, demanding that loans be made available to poor people who honestly shouldn't have 'em. Now, the reality is that poor people with bad loans were not the major propblem... it was middle class and even rich people (and even companies) with loans they shouldn't have had. But once the door was opened for the poor, *anybody* could take advantage of the process.



Amazingly enough, one of the best analyses of this situation was a Saturday Night Live skit! Watch it all the way through and you'll see: http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/c-span-bailout/727521/

Boy! Are we off topic or what?
 

F-14D

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Abraham Gubler said:
OT Apologies

Orionblamblam said:
"Unchecked extravagance of the financial sector." So that's what the kids are calling Barney Frank's social experimentation in the housing markets these days....

The sub-prime mortgage market was not the cause of the current crisis, it was just the initiator. It was financial practices by banks that are banned in Australia that lead to over exposure to risk and subsequent roll on failures (we have had no financial meltdown in Australia but are of course feeling the effect of the global slowdown in growth).

The "social experimentation” of the sub-prime market has been a part of the US banking system for years. It is a good way to free up more capital for investment and of course provide positive social development for those that benefit from it. The problems were the high risk activity with loan securities by bankers and of course extending sub-prime to include ultra-sub-prime (the infamous $400,000 loans to unemployed).

This is accurate, but the missing piece was that for 20 + years the gov't pressured banks to make those kind of loans, and then implicitly promised that if things went wrong they'd be covered because quasi-government organizations would buy up the loans. The New York Times discussed this way back in '99. Go to their site and search for "Fannie Mae Eases Credit to Aid Mortgage Lending", and pay particular attention to the 7th paragraph. They seem almost psychic.
 

Orionblamblam

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F-14D said:
Go to their site and search for "Fannie Mae Eases Credit to Aid Mortgage Lending", and pay particular attention to the 7th paragraph. They seem almost psychic.

Link: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260

7th para: "In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's."

Another article from Way Back When: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D6123BF932A2575AC0A9659C8B63
''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''



As for this being way off topic... I'd disagree. This forum is about aerospace projects that didn't make it. The vast majority o such projects fail simply because they weren't selected. But Ares/Constellation is likely to fail because the economy is tanking. Granted, Constellation is such a tiny, microscopic fraction of the FedGuv budget that cutting it as a way to save money is monumentally stupid... but we're dealing with the same pack of genetic defectives in government who think that we can tax our way out of financial difficulty. I suspect that before too long, perhaps a matter of months or even weeks, we will be able to look back on Constellation as yet another "failed" effort. And the cause of the failure will be readily apparent.
 

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Please, Scott, less venom please. Labelling Democrats "genetic defectives" isn't accurate or relevant to the topic.
 

Orionblamblam

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overscan said:
Please, Scott, less venom please. Labelling Democrats "genetic defectives" isn't accurate or relevant to the topic.

I didn't label *Democrats* genetic defectives. The government seems to be full of them of *every* party. The Republicans have hardly covered themselves in glory here. The Republican party has drifted so far into the tax-and-spend category that the difference between them and the Dems is damn near non-existant.

And when the day comes that a man cannot bitch about his government... that is the day that fascism has truly come.

And besides: this is me being tame and controlled. You should see what I *really* think.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Sure. But you don't have to bitch about your government in an aviation forum. Thats what blogs are for ::) Also calling for asteroid strikes on Detroit seems a little excessive.
 

Abraham Gubler

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Orionblamblam said:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sweetjuniper/sets/72157603302647339/

Worthwhile following the link to see what really happened here, rather than assuming that this damage caused to a book warehouse was by out of control poor kids.

http://www.sweet-juniper.com/2008/04/knowledge-of-what-happened-and-what.html

PS It was a day time fire in 1987 after which the building was abandoned.
 

Orionblamblam

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overscan said:
Sure. But you don't have to bitch about your government in an aviation forum.

Hard to get around that when the government is working overtime to cancel as many aerospace projects as possible. Imagine if this forum had been around when Duncan Sndys published his little white paper. I suspect a lot of Brits on the board would be all like "OMG! WTF!" And the Soviet citizens on the board would be all "ROFLCOPTER!" And us Vinlanders would be " White paper? What's that? IDK, my BFF Jill?"

Also calling for asteroid strikes on Detroit seems a little excessive.

I take it you haven't been there.

EDIT: Take a gander... http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000%5C000%5C015%5C945aynyk.asp


If an asteroid is going to hit the Earth, I'd prefer it did so in a place calculated to maximise benefits as *I* see them. Having it land in the Middle of Nowhere is kinda "meh." Having it stomp a place that needs a good bulldozing anyway would be a win-win.
 

Orionblamblam

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Abraham Gubler said:
http://www.sweet-juniper.com/2008/04/knowledge-of-what-happened-and-what.html

Thanks for that. It makes Detroit look even *worse,* if that's at all possible. It's like "A Clockwork Chernobyl."
 

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criminally negligent and borderline treasonous

That would be the Bush administration, who outed an undercover CIA agent and possibly got another killed as a result, and undermined our nuclear deterrence with respect to Iran gravely as a result.

As for the housing crisis/financial market meltdown, every economist I read online saw this coming for the past four years and it was the direct result of deregulation, and specifically with regard to the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act. There is no such thing as a free market, it's just a way for corporations to privatize the profits and socialize the losses and a form of labor arbitrage that favors corporations while stripping the rights of workers.

In fact, the bailout of Wall Street was the biggest welfare program in the history of America and much of that money is going for bonuses to many of these companies, including one of which only paid 1% in taxes this past year.

Regarding welfare, I wish we would get rid of it by first repealing the tax cuts for the wealthy. The wealthy in America are the biggest welfare queens in America and pay less in taxes than I do. Of whom much is given, much is required.

As usual, the Republicans destroy the U.S. economy and the Democrats have to come back in and fix the mess. The Republicans are the biggest spend thrifts in the history of America and run the deficits up so high that China now owns our asses. Cheney was wrong when he said deficits don't matter and our economy is showing it. It turns out they do matter and you can't just B.S. your way around it.

As for the Obama administration and the Ares program, all they did was ask to be briefed on the details of the program and the NASA administrator threw a hissy fit. I would expect any incoming administration to do an audit of all major programs when they come into office and they would be remiss in not doing so. I hope the first thing they do is can his ass when they come in. I know my ass would be gone if the CEO of our company came in and asked to see what was going on throughout our division and I told him, "No, you can only go through me to get the information." Good decisions are based on facts, not beliefs. Without the facts you can't make good decisions. So when Michael Griffin says, basically, "You can only have the facts as I see them," and then runs to the corporations working on Ares, like the biggest bed wetter in the world, and tells them Ares is going to be canceled without any evidence, that to me is not someone I want in charge of anything.

I could continue, but I think many will get the point here, as I've said before, leave your fscking politics out of it, if they don't directly relate to the program by fact, because,

A) I don't want to hear your B.S.
B) There are political sites for just this reason
C) I come here for the aviation knowledge, not for the politics, because frankly, most people here don't actually know sh*t about politics.

Or shall we discuss religion next?
 

Orionblamblam

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Sundog said:
criminally negligent and borderline treasonous

That would be the Bush administration, who outed an undercover CIA agent and possibly got another killed as a result

Richard Armitage is hardly the Bush administration.

In fact, the bailout of Wall Street was the biggest welfare program in the history of America and much of that money is going for bonuses to many of these companies, including one of which only paid 1% in taxes this past year.

A proper governmental response would have been to adjust the tax system so that corporations pay *NO* taxes.


Regarding welfare, I wish we would get rid of it by first repealing the tax cuts for the wealthy. The wealthy in America are the biggest welfare queens in America and pay less in taxes than I do. Of whom much is given, much is required.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs, spread the wealth.

Get rid of *all* income taxes. They are inheirantly unethical, punitive and stupid. Go to an end-used consumption tax.



A) I don't want to hear your B.S.

Roichard Armitage.

Or shall we discuss religion next?

Great. Another Obama thread....
 

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Sundog,

That would be the Bush administration, who outed an undercover CIA agent and possibly got another killed as a result, and undermined our nuclear deterrence with respect to Iran gravely as a result.

Correct. However, I don't think the Bush administration is/was all that concerned about our country.

All they are concerned with is making money and acquiring more and more power.

As for the housing crisis/financial market meltdown, every economist I read online saw this coming for the past four years and it was the direct result of deregulation

Correct.

Granted people should not have taken out mortgages on houses they could never hope to afford, *BUT* the banks should not have offered them or turned people down.

In fact, the bailout of Wall Street was the biggest welfare program in the history of America and much of that money is going for bonuses to many of these companies, including one of which only paid 1% in taxes this past year.

Probably true. It's pretty sad that they got themselves into this mess and we the taxpayers have to bail them out (whether we like it or not)

Regarding welfare, I wish we would get rid of it by first repealing the tax cuts for the wealthy. The wealthy in America are the biggest welfare queens in America and pay less in taxes than I do. Of whom much is given, much is required.

That's actually a very good point. It is kind of ironic how many wealthy people hate welfare and want it cut.

As usual, the Republicans destroy the U.S. economy and the Democrats have to come back in and fix the mess. The Republicans are the biggest spend thrifts in the history of America and run the deficits up so high that China now owns our asses. Cheney was wrong when he said deficits don't matter and our economy is showing it. It turns out they do matter and you can't just B.S. your way around it.

The economy generally does better with Democrats in charge, but they're no angels. You make them out to be all good guys. They're all pretty much crooks.

As for China, I won't argue with you there

As for the Obama administration and the Ares program, all they did was ask to be briefed on the details of the program and the NASA administrator threw a hissy fit.

The President is entitled to such details.

I would expect any incoming administration to do an audit of all major programs when they come into office and they would be remiss in not doing so. I hope the first thing they do is can his ass when they come in. I know my ass would be gone if the CEO of our company came in and asked to see what was going on throughout our division and I told him, "No, you can only go through me to get the information."

You are correct in this case, however a country is not the same as a company...

Good decisions are based on facts, not beliefs.

That typically is the case

Without the facts you can't make good decisions. So when Michael Griffin says, basically, "You can only have the facts as I see them," and then runs to the corporations working on Ares, like the biggest bed wetter in the world, and tells them Ares is going to be canceled without any evidence, that to me is not someone I want in charge of anything.

That's how this whole thing started?


Orionblamblam

Richard Armitage is hardly the Bush administration.

Actually there is evidence to suggest that it came from the top. Bush or Cheney.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs, spread the wealth.

Which is part of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. Sounds like a great idea on paper, but we know from fact that Communism is not an effective economic system.

Get rid of *all* income taxes. They are inheirantly unethical, punitive and stupid.

I do agree that income taxes are not necessary. Most taxes aren't even derived from them anyway.

Great. Another Obama thread....

Actually, I doubt that Obama is religious at all; he simply uses it as a tool to unite and to get what he wants.


Kendra
 

Orionblamblam

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KJ_Lesnick said:
Richard Armitage is hardly the Bush administration.

Actually there is evidence to suggest that it came from the top. Bush or Cheney.

Ah, no. Armitage and Novak both admitted to it. So just like the "Bush lied about Iraq" meme, the "Bush outted Plame" meme has stuck... but remains, nevertheless, wholly devoid of meaningful factual basis.


From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs, spread the wealth.

Which is part of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto.

And current Obamist policy. And also popular amongst the "soak the rich" crowd.


Great. Another Obama thread....

Actually, I doubt that Obama is religious at all...

His worshippers, on the other hand....

OK. *Now* we're getting off-topic.
 

Orionblamblam

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KJ_Lesnick said:
Without the facts you can't make good decisions. So when Michael Griffin says, basically, "You can only have the facts as I see them," and then runs to the corporations working on Ares, like the biggest bed wetter in the world, and tells them Ares is going to be canceled without any evidence, that to me is not someone I want in charge of anything.

That's how this whole thing started?

No. Obama promised during the campaign to delay Constellation by five years to provide funding to his education programs.

See: http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/11/20/obama-cut-constellation-to-pay-for-education/

Since there's no such thing as a "five year delay" in a new aerospace program, in effect he promised to cancel it and leave the US without manned spaceflight capability for upwards of a decade. Granted, he later promised to do more or less the exact opposite. But when it comes to politicians who make contradictory promises... it's always safest to assume they'll do whichever one is dumber. And since most people couldn't carfe less about space, but have bought into the odd notion that education is underfunded...

Bah. Too far off-topic.
 
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