Novi Avion (Yugoslavia)

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
Hi Marko, and welcome. Perhaps HS1216 meant by "finalised" the Rafale-influenced configuration, as opposed to the earlier Lavi style one as seen in the PDF?
 

Dynamo7

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Dears folks,
could you tell me about two projects of the mid/last 80's,
I mean the Novi Avion from the former Yugoslavia aircraft industries,
and the Mirage3000, a downsized fighter powered by RB199 engine from Dassault (of course) ?
(please just apologize me about my really poor english)
 

TinWing

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
896
Reaction score
117
Dynamo7 said:
Dears folks,
could you tell me about two projects of the mid/last 80's,
I mean the Novi Avion from the former Yugoslavia aircraft industries,
and the Mirage3000, a downsized fighter powered by RB199 engine from Dassault (of course) ?
(please just apologize me about my really poor english)

Always use the search function before starting a new thread, which actually works very well on this site.

Here is the Novi Avion thread, which included an original brochure from SOKO:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,442.0/highlight,novi+avion.html

The Mirage 3000 has been described as a twin RB.199 powered Mirage 2000 in a World Airpower Journal Article, but no drawings or other illustrations have come to light. It was most likely a Dassault proposal to the UK, before the EAP, having absolutely no known relationship with the Novi Avion.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
Here's a CGI image of the YCA (Yugoslav Combat Aircraft) from a Dassault brochure via Flateric (thanks!)
 

Attachments

  • YCA.jpg
    YCA.jpg
    71.5 KB · Views: 1,247
  • yca-text.jpg
    yca-text.jpg
    44.1 KB · Views: 1,183

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,715
Reaction score
1,047
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
Novi Avion (New Aircraft) 1992

Type: Single-engined, single-seat, multirole combat aircraft and two-seat operational trainer.

Program: Yugoslavia's indigenous successor to the Mikoyan MiG-21. Design definition completed by Vazduhoplovno Tehnicki Institute (VTI) in early 1990 assisted by several Western aviation companies, notably Dassault. Discussions with European and US firms on possible collaborative airframe development and possible use of Rolls-Royce, General Electric, or Pratt & Whitney powerplants. Intended manufacture by Soko. All work was reported to have ended in 1992.

Cost: Estimated development expenditure $150-to-$200 US dollars per year throughout 1990s.

Design features: Mid-positioned, delta wings with 46° leading-edge sweep and 3° trailing-edge forward sweep; canard foreplanes with 45° leading-edge sweep; single fin with inset rudder; no horizontal tail; twin "Rafale-type" kidney shaped intakes for high angle-of-attack performance; low-set cockpit. Rates of turn sustained 20°/s; instantaneous 30°/s.

Flying controls: Digital fly by wire (FBW) control system; two-section elevons form entire rear surface of wing; movable canards.

Structure: Widespread use of carbon composites, Kevlar, aluminum and aluminum-lithium alloys, titanium and other advanced materials.

Landing gear: Tricycle-type with single wheels; all retracting forward into the fuselage.

Power plant: One engine in the 100 kN (22,480 lb st) class. Internal fuel capacity 3,300 liters (871 US gallons; 726 Imp gallons); external tanks for further 5,800 liters (1,531 US gallons; 1,276 Imp gallons).

Accommodation: Pilot only, under three piece canopy; 17° downward view over nose.

Avionics: Nose-mounted radar; digital flight control system; multi-function nav/attack system; secure communications and advanced cockpit displays.

Armament: Eleven hardpoints, including two for wingtip infra-red AAMs and one for cannon up to 30 mm; maximum individual bomb size, 1,000 kg; precision guided bombs and missiles.

index.php



Text sources:
Lambert, Mark ed. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1992-1993 Jane's Information Group Ltd. 1992 p. 462.
Lambert, Mark ed. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1994-1995 Jane's Information Group Ltd. 1994 p. 660.
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,715
Reaction score
1,047
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
Novi Avion (New Aircraft) 1992 continued

Performance
Max level speed: Mach 1.85
Max rate of climb: 15,000 m (49,200 ft)/min
T-O and landing run (close air support): 750 m (2,461 ft)
Tactical radius (close air support): 216-539 mn (400-1,000 km; 248.5-621 miles)
Ferry range: 2,031 nm (3,765 km; 2,339 miles)

Weights and loadings
Weight empty, equipped: 6,247 kg (13,772 lb)
Max fuel weight, internal: 2,565 kg (5,655 lb)
Max fuel weight, external: 4,500 kg (9,921 lb)
Max T-O weight: 13,400 kg (29,542 lb)
Max wing loading: 446.67 kg/sq m (91.48 lb/sq ft)
Max power loading: 134 kg/kN (1.31 lb/lb st)

Areas
Wings,gross: 30.00 sq m (322.9 sq ft)

Dimensions, external
Wing span (without missiles): 8.00 m (26 ft 3 in)
Length overall: 13.75 m (45 ft 1.375 in)
Height overall: 4.87 m (15 ft 11.75 in)
Foreplane span: 3.55 m (11 ft 7/75 in)
Wheel track: 2.42 m (7ft 11.25 in)
Wheelbase: 4.20 m (13 ft 9.375 in)

Text source: Lambert, Mark ed. Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1992-1993 Jane's Information Group Ltd. 1992 p. 462.
 

bigvlada

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
369
Reaction score
39

Attachments

  • Trisonicni aerotunel T-38, samodelom NovogAviona - RADNI DEO !.JPG
    Trisonicni aerotunel T-38, samodelom NovogAviona - RADNI DEO !.JPG
    131 KB · Views: 220
  • 123381_259885095_na.jpg
    123381_259885095_na.jpg
    284.5 KB · Views: 197
  • 123381_259885095_motor 1.jpg
    123381_259885095_motor 1.jpg
    304 KB · Views: 150
  • 123381_259885095_motor 0.jpg
    123381_259885095_motor 0.jpg
    299.4 KB · Views: 939
  • 123381_61877411_a1.jpg
    123381_61877411_a1.jpg
    331.1 KB · Views: 999
  • yca.jpg
    yca.jpg
    58.9 KB · Views: 999

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
Some great wind tunnel model pics on that blog, including the early ventral intake version and the later "Rafale Lite" version.
 

Attachments

  • VTI NA model 25.jpg
    VTI NA model 25.jpg
    217.1 KB · Views: 170
  • VTI NA model 16.jpg
    VTI NA model 16.jpg
    223.1 KB · Views: 132
  • VTI NA model 08.jpg
    VTI NA model 08.jpg
    216.3 KB · Views: 139
  • VTI NA model 10.jpg
    VTI NA model 10.jpg
    233.5 KB · Views: 166
  • VTI NA model 02.jpg
    VTI NA model 02.jpg
    239.7 KB · Views: 163
  • VTI NA model 01.jpg
    VTI NA model 01.jpg
    227.2 KB · Views: 150
  • VTI NA model 20.jpg
    VTI NA model 20.jpg
    239.7 KB · Views: 192
  • VTI NA model 22.jpg
    VTI NA model 22.jpg
    315 KB · Views: 191

kaiserbill

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,540
Reaction score
673
Regarding the engine, I have read on another blog that the SNECMA M88 was the strong forerunner, not least because there was definite interest from South Africa for it to power the Atlas Carver. The French would turn a blind eye to what would have been a big order. The blog goes on to say that the deal was effectively scuppered as Yugoslavia wanted far too much to facilitate the deal. So much in fact, that it would finance a great portion of the Novi Avion project.

Not sure how true this is though, although both aircraft were broadly similar in role and timeline.
 

bigvlada

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
369
Reaction score
39
At first, they wanted to do everything alone, the second phase was the cooperation with Dassault (engine and avionics, but not the CATIA software) the third phase was the inclusion of India in the deal (similar to the joint cooperation with Romania on the Orao ground attack aircraft).
Yugoslavia invested heavily in the modernization of its civilian and military research institutes in the eighties as preparation for the production of NA (a few billion dollars in 1990 exchange rates, including new Mach 4 tunnel). I have a 20 page article, split in three about the pressclippings from the late eighties and early 1990s about the project. The intent was to invest a few hundred million dollars annually for ten years. I've never found any source that says the France would fund the project.
The big question is, how would this aircraft fare on the world market today? If it could be cheaper than Grippen and share no problems with the engine and electronics procurement like J-17 had? How many countries have outdated fleets and have no money for the Rafale or the upkeep of the older fighters?
There is another aspect of the YU-FRA relations from that time, the Aerospatiale's efforts to sell Super Puma instead of the homegrown VNH - 90 project.
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
858
While browsing through various magazines, I came across an article from the Yugoslav Aero Magazin N°2 dated March/April 1998. I don't speak Yugoslav but it seems like the article describes various stages of a program known as "YU-supersonic". Several pictures illustrate the article, among which two models depicting the so-called YCY (presumably Yugoslav Supersonic Fighter) in two different configurations. Then two wind tunnel models appear, one taken in Zharkov, the other in India.
 

Attachments

  • project2.jpg
    project2.jpg
    224.4 KB · Views: 145
  • project1.jpg
    project1.jpg
    204.8 KB · Views: 140
  • ycy2-web.jpg
    ycy2-web.jpg
    198.8 KB · Views: 148
  • ycy1-web.jpg
    ycy1-web.jpg
    182.9 KB · Views: 179

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
858
Here is an advertisement for the so-called "Novi Avion" ("new plane") that appeared in Aero Magazin N°3:
 

Attachments

  • noviavion-retouched.jpg
    noviavion-retouched.jpg
    284.4 KB · Views: 182

bigvlada

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
369
Reaction score
39
Earlier drawings of Novi avion were made before the cooperation with France. Later pictures show a lot of similarities with Rafale.
Aircraft technical institute (now part of military technical institute) is situated in Zharkovo, a municipality in Belgrade. The concept was similar to TSAGi, they designed,built and tested the plane. After that, state aircraft factories such as Ikarus, Utva an Soko produced the aircraft.
There is no Yugoslav language. For a good part of the 20th century it was called serbocroatian (in Serbia) and croatoserbian (in Croatia). Nowdays it is popular that every former Yugoslav republic has it's own language and church. Slovenian and Macedonian language are slightly different but understandable. People in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro and Serbia speak the same language.There are three dialects and the main difference between them is whether you put a few letters in specific words (example: milk - mleko, mlijeko,mliko).
Anglosaxon parallel would be for instance the existence of Canadian,American, Australian and Newzelandian language.
Although the differences are minuscule compared to the German-swiss german or portugese-brazilian portugese we now have four different languages on paper. Sad.
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
858
bigvlada said:
Earlier drawings of Novi avion were made before the cooperation with France. Later pictures show a lot of similarities with Rafale.
Aircraft technical institute (now part of military technical institute) is situated in Zharkovo, a municipality in Belgrade. The concept was similar to TSAGi, they designed,built and tested the plane. After that, state aircraft factories such as Ikarus, Utva an Soko produced the aircraft.
There is no Yugoslav language. For a good part of the 20th century it was called serbocroatian (in Serbia) and croatoserbian (in Croatia). Nowdays it is popular that every former Yugoslav republic has it's own language and church. Slovenian and Macedonian language are slightly different but understandable. People in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro and Serbia speak the same language.There are three dialects and the main difference between them is whether you put a few letters in specific words (example: milk - mleko, mlijeko,mliko).
Anglosaxon parallel would be for instance the existence of Canadian,American, Australian and Newzelandian language.
Although the differences are minuscule compared to the German-swiss german or portugese-brazilian portugese we now have four different languages on paper. Sad.

Thanks for the explanations! :D
 

bigvlada

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
369
Reaction score
39
I know that it looks extremely confusing to foreigners (and when you add the fact that for example Serbians use two dialects out of three,plus there are two writing systems in use (Cyrillic and Latin) the confusion is complete). But the fact remains, if you learn one combination (dialect/writing system) you'll be able to communicate with everyone without problems.
Back to the subject, Yugoslavia invested heavily in basic research, material science and the procurement of machines intended for the research and development of the novi avion.
Here's the wikipedia article of the aircraft technical institute with a few pictures of the facilities and wind tunnels.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsr.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%85%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%83%D1%82
 

Justo Miranda

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
5,346
Reaction score
4,718
Website
www.amazon.com
From YASIG 2002 Nº 1-4
 

Attachments

  • ñ 003.jpg
    ñ 003.jpg
    111 KB · Views: 1,479
  • ñ 002.jpg
    ñ 002.jpg
    111.5 KB · Views: 1,544
  • ñ 001.jpg
    ñ 001.jpg
    291 KB · Views: 2,645
  • ñ.jpg
    ñ.jpg
    238.5 KB · Views: 1,732

bigvlada

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
369
Reaction score
39
Small presentation in English of the wind tunnels built for the testing of Novi Avion
 

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,599
The wind tunnel model in the "Rafale configuration" was shown on the ILA 2012:
 

Attachments

  • CIMG3968.jpg
    CIMG3968.jpg
    90.7 KB · Views: 1,197
  • CIMG3973.jpg
    CIMG3973.jpg
    98.1 KB · Views: 238
  • CIMG3970.jpg
    CIMG3970.jpg
    70 KB · Views: 217

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,361
Reaction score
1,599
A good question, which unfortunately I cannot answer. It was the only wind tunnel model to be
shown, besides some other models, e.g. of the Utva Lasta 95.
Maybe the reason really was to demonstrate the competence in designing military aircraft.
 

bigvlada

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
369
Reaction score
39
Nice. But what was the reason for that? To show the competency?
Yes. Serbia does not have the capacity to pull this project off. But the few billions of dollars worth of infrastructure that was built and purchased for this project in the eighties (mach 4 windtunnel for instance) is still operational. They are pitching for some work.
 

Deino

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
3,039
Reaction score
1,312
Interesting summary in Chinese ...

http://www.afwing.com/intro/novi_avion/novi_avion-1.htm
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
From Aerosvet International Issue 2
 

Attachments

  • Novi-Avion-Article2.jpg
    Novi-Avion-Article2.jpg
    246.9 KB · Views: 167
  • Novi-Avion-Article1.jpg
    Novi-Avion-Article1.jpg
    222.4 KB · Views: 195
  • Novi-Avion-AerosvetIntl2-4.jpg
    Novi-Avion-AerosvetIntl2-4.jpg
    71.4 KB · Views: 189
  • Novi-Avion-AerosvetIntl2-3.jpg
    Novi-Avion-AerosvetIntl2-3.jpg
    116.6 KB · Views: 180
  • Novi-Avion-AerosvetIntl2-2.jpg
    Novi-Avion-AerosvetIntl2-2.jpg
    78.4 KB · Views: 181
  • Novi-Avion-AerosvetIntl2-1.jpg
    Novi-Avion-AerosvetIntl2-1.jpg
    119.5 KB · Views: 148

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Novi_Avion
 

Attachments

  • Novi_avion_YU_02ed.JPG
    Novi_avion_YU_02ed.JPG
    51.1 KB · Views: 127
  • Novi_avion_YU_01ed.JPG
    Novi_avion_YU_01ed.JPG
    40.5 KB · Views: 139
  • Novi_avion_YUed.jpg
    Novi_avion_YUed.jpg
    259.6 KB · Views: 132

bigvlada

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
369
Reaction score
39
That poor model was displayed more in the last two years than in previous 20. The first picture is probably from Air show in Batajnica Air Base, and the next two are form the eighties, VOC (Vazduhoplovno opitni centar - Aircraft Test Centre, or as it is now called TOS Tehnički opitni centar - Technical Test Centre).
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
Reuploaded missing brochure from beginning of topic:


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/ebooks/NA.pdf
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
More windtunnel model pics from Batajnica Air Base
 

Attachments

  • 113795_46440711_YUSS (5).jpg
    113795_46440711_YUSS (5).jpg
    104.6 KB · Views: 103
  • 113795_46440711_YUSS (4).jpg
    113795_46440711_YUSS (4).jpg
    164 KB · Views: 97
  • 113795_46440711_YUSS (3).jpg
    113795_46440711_YUSS (3).jpg
    214.4 KB · Views: 104
  • 113795_46440711_YUSS (2).jpg
    113795_46440711_YUSS (2).jpg
    180.4 KB · Views: 92
  • 113795_46440711_YUSS (1).jpg
    113795_46440711_YUSS (1).jpg
    123.4 KB · Views: 118

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
28,551
Reaction score
6,291
And a Model for Novi Avion;


http://www.smcars.net/threads/new-airplane-or-yu-supersonik.36016/
 

Attachments

  • Novi Avion 28.JPG
    Novi Avion 28.JPG
    357.2 KB · Views: 184
  • images.jpg
    images.jpg
    4.1 KB · Views: 210

orko_8

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
17
Reaction score
3
Website
www.hikotai.net
Greetings,

The below photo was displayed at the booth of YugoImport during IDEF 2015 defence & aerospace exhibition in Istanbul last week.

The poster was at a very dark corner of the booth, as if the company did not want it to be seen by many!

Company representative did not elaborate on the project, except roll out planned for next year.

The image looks like heavy photoshop on a Rafale photo, but after a closer look, it seemed to me like a CGI.

Any info? Can it be a resurrection of Novi Avion?

20150506_101212.jpg


https://plus.google.com/photos/100656503623824807062/albums/6148449777358502385/6148449889500059650?banner=pwa&pid=6148449889500059650&oid=100656503623824807062
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
28,551
Reaction score
6,291
Nice find Orko,


and there is no info yet available.
 

bigvlada

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
369
Reaction score
39
orko_8 said:
Greetings,

The below photo was displayed at the booth of YugoImport during IDEF 2015 defence & aerospace exhibition in Istanbul last week.

The poster was at a very dark corner of the booth, as if the company did not want it to be seen by many!

Company representative did not elaborate on the project, except roll out planned for next year.

The image looks like heavy photoshop on a Rafale photo, but after a closer look, it seemed to me like a CGI.

Any info? Can it be a resurrection of Novi Avion?

20150506_101212.jpg


https://plus.google.com/photos/100656503623824807062/albums/6148449777358502385/6148449889500059650?banner=pwa&pid=6148449889500059650&oid=100656503623824807062
The project was dead in 1990. It remains dead. The country for which it was designed does not exist anymore. There is no money for it. The people who designed it are retired. The people who should have been responsible for it's construction are retired too. Pure necrophilia. Yugoimport SDPR is government's arms sales company. They were really pulling your chain with that rollout comment. If that representative said that to any media in Serbia (or any exYU republic), he would have been dipped in tar and feathers and ridiculed for months.
 

Motocar

I really should change my personal text
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
693
Reaction score
255
I have the especulative cutaway drawing Novi Avion....!
 

DWG

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
1,504
Reaction score
1,716
I have a vague memory circa mid-late 80s (likely 86-88), of being told by my then boss that we - GEC-Marconi Avionics - were bidding for the avionics package on (from context) the Novi Avion. That would have been our normal HUDWAC, probably an F-16 derivative given the scale of fit he was describing, but he gave the impression the bid was for a more comprehensive package than we normally put together, and the one point that really stuck in my mind was that he said the nav package would include stellar referenced navigation, which is incredibly rare as an aircraft technology. Everything about the Novi Avion seems to have been incredibly ambitious.

That was the one time I heard it discussed, and we certainly didn't do any work on it, so either the bid was unsuccessful or the avionics didn't progress past the concept stage.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
28,551
Reaction score
6,291
From Krila 1/1988.
 

Attachments

  • 1.png
    1.png
    93.5 KB · Views: 127
  • 2.png
    2.png
    114.2 KB · Views: 131
Top