North American Rockwell « Nova » NGT trainer proposals

[CammNut]

This was the Rockwell entry in the Next Generation Trainer competition. A darn sight prettier than the winning Fairchild design.

 

[AeroFranz]

I had the chance to talk at length with one of the designers of the Rockwell Nova. He said that one of the curious aspects of the NGT RFP was the requirement to have "podded engines". For most designers, that automatically implies something like a "Caravelle" configuration.
This is problematic with low wing placement, because flow quality at high alpha is critical. They went back to the air force and asked them to clarify "pod". It turns out they just wanted something that was sticking out the side of the fuselage, not integrated into the structure, so that it would be easy to work on (remember the problems of getting to the T-37 engines, and how hard it was to re-engine).
So what they did is stick the engines behind the wing, where it enjoys good accessibility, but extend the inlet forward to where it can capture high-quality air no matter what attitude the airplane is flying at.

Maybe it was just some understandable spite for having lost the competition, but he said the T-46 should have never won and that the decision was political, to save Fairchild. Ironically Fairchild went under anyway, a few years later.

 

[Triton]

Found on Flickr, artist's concept identified as a Rockwell proposal.

Source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/n303wr/4112940895/

 

[Triton]

North American Rockwell Jet Trainer Concept Art

[link no longer active]

Seller's decription:

North American Aviation - Rockwell International USAF Jet Trainer Concept Art.

I was fortunate to have obtained a number of ORIGIONAL concepts from North American Aviation.This 1978 USAF twin engine jet trainer concept art shows a side by side twin jet in USAF high visibility orange and white paint scheme. Aircraft is similar to the Cessna T-37 in size with the exception of external engines. Size is @ 22"x18" and is labeled TSP78-9892 on #82 water color board

.

 

[Triton]

North American Rockwell USAF Jet Trainer Concept Art

[link no longer active]

Seller's description:

North American Aviation - Rockwell International USAF Jet Trainer Concept Art.

I was fortunate to have obtained a number of ORIGIONAL concepts from North American Aviation.This is a USAF single engine jet trainer concept art and shows a side by side jet in USAF high visibility orange and white paint scheme. Two aircraft are depicted, both were painted then cut out and placed on a desert background photo. There is a blacked out area just above the canopy on the main aircraft (see photo) I did not try and remove it. Size is @ 22"x19" and this work has no date-file number.

 

[Stargazer]

An NGT model being tested in NASA's Free Spinning Tunnel in 1982:

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/File:L-82-2677.jpg
(full-size pic attached below)

 

[AeroFranz]

Rockwell NOVA. One of these may be a repeat post, but the caption might be useful.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


http://accessscience.com/content/Aircraft%20design/018550

 

[hesham]

The North American Rockwell NGT concept;

http://deeptowild.blogspot.com/2011/06/found-on-ebay-north-american-rockwell.html

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Edited versions:

 

[RAP]

Very nice! Thank you.

 

[AeroFranz]

Three spin tunnel pictures of the Rockwell NGT entry. Some interesting details about modifications, given by the chief designer himself:

"If you recall, I said that the NGT was tested in the NASA spin tunnel (March of 1982 date was on the back of the photos, and 1982 is shown on the front of the photos).. The photos show the 1/6th scale model (about 5 ft long) in the tunnel. By that time the fuselage had been "stretched" to provide more tail volume without changing the tail design. The model was beautifully painted for publicity reasons. This all paid off, as NASA kept the model, saying it had the best spin, spin recovery characteristics they had ever seen, and wanted to use it as the bench mark for future spin testing models! We were well on our way to beating Fairchild!"

 

[AeroFranz]

A structural cutaway i was just sent.

 

[AeroFranz]

More info on the Rockwell entries for NGT and VTX from one of the designers (Darold Cummings):

"It is interesting to observe how many people worked on the Rockwell VTX (Navy trainer competition to replace the T-2 and TA-4). Dave Hall worked on the Columbus version, and if you read the Raymer book, he did the "only" Los Angeles version. However, while I was on the NGT program in Los Angeles, I was asked by Columbus to apply the "conformal nacelle" concept to a modified T-2 as a possible T-2 update/competitor that would look much more modern. It turns out the T-2 structure is divided horizontally, with the lower portion containing the inlets and engines. I took the stock T-2 and sliced the whole bottom off and faired it over, and it looked much sleeker. I then added two JT-15D engines in NOVA-style "conformal nacelles". In digging through my boxes I actually found a perspective sketch done by Jim Costopolus in September of 1980 (see enclosure). It is even called out as a "T-2C with conformal nacelles". Another interesting note is the #585 on the tail. The D585 series is the code number for all the NGT NOVA drawings! So there were at least three Rockwell/NAA VTX concepts that made it to the artwork stage!"

"The real reason the VTX award went to the Hawk was strictly because of politics! NAA did not team with BAe on the Hawk because they knew from experience it would be too expensive to modify the Hawk for cat ops. McD only teamed with BAe to have a back-up for their all new design. Reagan was just elected president, and was getting a lot of pressure from the British government to buy something from the Brits, since the UK was spending so much money on US missiles and other equipment. Same old story as NGT, would the Hawk work? "Yes. but......" So when the announcement was made that McD won, all the engineers were excited, but when they learned it was the modified Hawk, not their new design, they were "in the dumps". (Note: both McD and Rockwell submitted two proposals for VTX; new aircraft and modded aircraft). The Hawk took many painful years for all the issues to be resolved for use as a cat op aircraft. The Hawk lived through the pain because it was an existing aircraft, and the end was in sight. The NGT was the very next trainer award by the U.S military, but the T-46 was so bad, it could not live through all the issues as a "new build" and was cancelled."

 

[AeroFranz]

While Cummings was working on one version in LA, Dave Hall was doing another in Columbus. Here's what he has to say:

"My T-2H configuration dated from late 1973 or early 1974 and was to be a new build even though Columbus still had the T-2 line going strong. Ed Lays, who moved to Williams, an I created a very light jet based on the AeroCommander 112 which bore the designation Commander 112TF. Four seats. Two WR19s (F107 predecessors) in aft pods. John Spencer, General Milliagn's successor as trainer czar, was the PM who tasked Ed and me to create it then said he wanted to morph it into a T-2 replacement which he dubbed T-2H for Hall to play to my ego. Ed thought it should've been the T-2L. We did ours, then sent the drawings over to graphic arts where Charlie Hood, patent holder on the OV-10 and its chief configurator, did the art. In typical Charlie style, he come up with his own design and did art for that. So I'll see your three T-2 replacement configurations and raise you one.
I'm about to start on the NGT solid model, BTW. If I can find T-2 large-scale drawings I'll take a shot at this [the T-2C previously mentioned] after NGT." Anyone's got good T-2 drawings?

 

[Arjen]

Anyone's got good T-2 drawings?

Source:
'North American: Aircraft 1934-1999 (Volume 2)' by Kevin Thompson, Narkiewicz//Thompson 1999
PM me for a bigger scan.

 

[AeroFranz]

Will do, thanks!

 

[Stargazer]

Posts split/topics merged.

Here are several other pictures from the NGT/VTX thread:

NGT/Nova proposal

 

[Stargazer]

Here are several other pictures from the NGT/VTX thread:

VTXTS proposal (attachment)

 

[Stargazer]

JPATS proposal

 

[AeroFranz]

Some more info on the NGT proposal from Darold Cummings:

"I found these two really nice Rockwell NGT photos today! The podded design is dated 1978 on the photo, and was the baseline before the second visit to the Air Training Command, where we had to confess this design didn't work, and we presented the "conformal nacelle" version shown on the mock-up photo."

Also, Darold found a picture of a previously undisclosed NGT model

"There is an interesting photo of a screen shot of one of the many NGT concepts we were exploring at the time (1977/78). It is a single-engined design, with a top mounted inlet, with the exhaust going through a V-tail! The drawing was done in CDS (Conceptual Design System)."

I apologize if these are reposts of pictures already present.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/historic/20-Foot_Spin_Tunnel_(645)_Models_and_Tests_N-Z#Rockwell_NGT_Trainer