Next Chinese aircraft carrier - Type 002 'Shandong' and Type 003

totoro

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Extrapolating tonnage from the estimated waterline dimensions, it might be around 80 thousand metric tons. Give or take a few thousand.
So yeah, just below/around Kitty Hawk class.
 

Archibald

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One very important thing to remember regarding China, they have an economy and lots of money (thanks to US, Europe, etc farming out for cheaper manufacturing) as we now see regarding their rapid military build up, the old Soviet Union did not have an economy and essentially broke themselves. This is Cold War Part II but now with China, stay tuned.
Yes, it does seem they have harvested a lot of knowledge from the West when they carefully crafted their future and learned from the Soviet Union. As much as analysts want to predict their collapse (and have been for decades), I believe due to their authoritarian nature and the amount of people they pulled out of poverty, nationalism will see them succeed, dangerously.

One thing could eventually slowing the country ascent in the short term, is the population aeging. They are seemingly headed toward a Japan-like severe issue on that matter, except 10 times the size. And considering the sheer cruelty and brutality of both government and economy, I wouldn't want to be a 75 year old chinese nowadays. Sooner or later, this will catch up with Chinese society brutally.
Think of what happened to France old people in 2003 with the august heatwave: 15 000 died with many left rotten and only found too late; this despite - supposedly - social welfare to take care of them (it failed horribly, and that's an understatement).
Also this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/10/japenese-centenarians-records

If democracies can't grant dignity to their ederly people, brutal dictatorships won't do miracles either.

It will be very ugly for China...

Now back to aircraft carriers. Their strategy seems clear enough: they have started from old Varyag and are gradually introducing steps, first to get Kittyhawk size carriers; and from there, they will jump to Nimitz / Ford class.

Makes some sense: they have (rather intelligently) kick started a carrier industry out of Soviet Union carrier remains; and from there, they are starting a supercarrier business from where the USN started with USS Forrestal in the mid-50's; accelerating toward Nimitz (1972 - 2012 production run) and Ford class.

They are very much compressing the Forrestal - Kitty Hawk - Enterprise - Nimitz - Ford development path from 60 years (USN) into, what, 30 years (2005 - 2035, give or take ?)

Just asking in passing (Deino ?) Is it known whether or not the Chinese ever got some Ulyanovsk blueprints or data ? or did the Russian "input" stopped at Kuznestov / Varyag / Liaoning level ?

In a sense the chinese are probably better not having pressed-on with Ulyanovsk copies straight ahead; that carrier compared to, said, a Nimitz, was probably a little flawed (and too huge a step to start from).
 
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Deino

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"China’s Third Aircraft Carrier Takes Shape" and satellite images from 30 May - probably the best we know since some time - reveal the substantial progress made in the construction of the Type 003 aircraft carrier.

Besides the overall progress, these images reveal for the first time a closer look onto the carrier's island and as such might end a long discussion: As it seems and as expected by most observers, it will be conventional carrier clearly showing a funnel with a squared chimney.

Images via https://www.csis.org/analysis/chinas-third-aircraft-carrier-takes-shape

PLN Type 003 carrier - 20210530 - CSIS - 1.jpg PLN Type 003 carrier - 20210530 - CSIS - 2 island.jpg

PLN Type 003 carrier - 20210530 - CSIS - 3.jpg
 

stealthflanker

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Things remain to be seen is the propulsion layout. Turbo-Electric drive or Integrated Electric Propulsion is Tbh a very good contender as it assures large amount of electricity to be generated and distributed for applications like EMALS and to drive various electronics.

plus offering fuel efficiency because the turbine and steam boiler etc can now operate in their optimum RPM.
 

Archibald

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"China’s Third Aircraft Carrier Takes Shape" and satellite images from 30 May - probably the best we know since some time - reveal the substantial progress made in the construction of the Type 003 aircraft carrier.

Besides the overall progress, these images reveal for the first time a closer look onto the carrier's island and as such might end a long discussion: As it seems and as expected by most observers, it will be conventional carrier clearly showing a funnel with a squared chimney.

Images via https://www.csis.org/analysis/chinas-third-aircraft-carrier-takes-shape

View attachment 659092View attachment 659093

View attachment 659094

I feel like a National Reconnaissance Office spook eyeing Varyag and Kuznetsov buildup in the 80's Soviet Union.
Or Red October, for that matter.
 

Blitzo

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Was there ever a definitive open source evaluation of the propulsion used in Liaoning or Shandong?

Things remain to be seen is the propulsion layout. Turbo-Electric drive or Integrated Electric Propulsion is Tbh a very good contender as it assures large amount of electricity to be generated and distributed for applications like EMALS and to drive various electronics.

plus offering fuel efficiency because the turbine and steam boiler etc can now operate in their optimum RPM.


Rumours have been that Shandong used propulsion derived from a system developed originally for 003.
That is to say, both 003 and Shandong will be using steam boilers and turbines as prime movers.

It will not be using IEPS.
The first major PLAN warship to use IEPS is likely to be 054B at this stage.
There are no credible rumours about 003 using IEPS.


As always, being able to accurately discern rumours is important. Trying to predict or track PLA developments without that, is like fighting with both hands behind your back.
 

Deino

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These latest images give a first full impression of the Type 003 carrier's outer shape of as well as any final doubts on a third catapult on the waist deck are eliminated . So next steps are closure of the deck and the installation of the island.

(Images via @谈笑看世间)


PLN Type 003 carrier - 20210623 - 4+.jpg PLN Type 003 carrier - 20210623 - 3.jpg PLN Type 003 carrier - 20210623 - 2.jpg PLN Type 003 carrier - 20210623 - 1.jpg
 
 

Archibald

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They are certainly losing no time.

I wonder what risks the passenger taking pictures ?
 

Moose

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Landing an island all in 1 piece is pretty par for the CV course these days. Only real surprise is that they're still so obsessed with secrecy that they can't take time out for an island landing ceremony. Hope they at least didn't forget the coin, hell of a big ship to launch without luck.
 

Deino

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PS ... forgot to post this from a few days ago!

1624984433547.png
 

Wyvern

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On Mickey Maoze(dong) tourist park...
"Dude, that joke is terrible! How's that going to look on your social credit score? I am going to deduct 1000 points." - Xi Jinping.......probably

On a more serious note, the rate at which the Chinese have completed various stages on their own indigenous carrier is staggering. I cannot comprehend something of the sort ever happening here in the West, and only shows their determination.
 
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FighterJock

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helmutkohl

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how accurate do you think this art work to be?
its floating on twitter
E49yMgKVUAstkDy
 

FighterJock

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how accurate do you think this art work to be?
its floating on twitter
E49yMgKVUAstkDy

With the exception of having the third catapult in the art work whereas the actual 003 carrier will only have two catapults installed, I would think it is quite accurate helmutkohl, especially with the island design looking like the design that Deino posted above.
 

helmutkohl

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how accurate do you think this art work to be?
its floating on twitter
E49yMgKVUAstkDy

With the exception of having the third catapult in the art work whereas the actual 003 carrier will only have two catapults installed, I would think it is quite accurate helmutkohl, especially with the island design looking like the design that Deino posted above.
looks like it might actually be 3 after all!
 

FighterJock

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how accurate do you think this art work to be?
its floating on twitter
E49yMgKVUAstkDy

With the exception of having the third catapult in the art work whereas the actual 003 carrier will only have two catapults installed, I would think it is quite accurate helmutkohl, especially with the island design looking like the design that Deino posted above.
looks like it might actually be 3 after all!

Wow, thanks for the update, helmutkohl. So it appears that the PLAN are going with three after all. I had thought that 003 was only to have two catapults.
 

Grey Havoc

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Wait until they start laying down CGNs or even CAGNs & BCGNs (if they haven't already!).
 

Josh_TN

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Wait until they start laying down CGNs or even CAGNs & BCGNs (if they haven't already!).
That seems unlikely. The general consensus seems to be that outside submarines, nuke plants don't scale down well - you end up with most of the expense of production and operation powering less of a ship. I can't see the PRC going down that route. That and the utility of designs like Kirov seems pretty marginal for the cost even if they were conventionally powered.
 

covert_shores

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helmutkohl

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in that article it mentioned that they expect the EMALS to be able to generate more launches/sorties
Im wondering how this would compare to the stovl sorties on the QE class.

also curious to see if the PLAN will experience similar issues with EMALS as the USN did and if they will approach it differently
 

sferrin

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in that article it mentioned that they expect the EMALS to be able to generate more launches/sorties
Im wondering how this would compare to the stovl sorties on the QE class.

also curious to see if the PLAN will experience similar issues with EMALS as the USN did and if they will approach it differently
China will have the benefit of being able to dial up tech support at General Atomics instead of having to figure it out themselves.
 

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