Next Chinese aircraft carrier - Type 002 'Shandong' and Type 003

Foo Fighter

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More conflict in the SCS region too.
 

Deino

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A great comparison made by @AkelaFreedom and posted at the SDF:
1f62f.png
1f44d.png

"For comparison, satellite imagery - Type 075 LHD, Shandong and Liaoning. The same pier and height."
And indeed, they were all taken at the Sanya Comprehensive Support Base on Hainan Island. The image showing the Liaoning (bottom) however was taken earlier, when the complex was still under construction and the roof not finished yet.

PLN Type 075 - 001 + 002 carrier.jpg
 

helmutkohl

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my personal opinion.
Type 75 is more interesting as a design since its a ground up, new, and original design.
the other two are still rooted in the old Kuznetsov (either directly or indirectly).
 

Deino

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my personal opinion.
Type 75 is more interesting as a design since its a ground up, new, and original design.
the other two are still rooted in the old Kuznetsov (either directly or indirectly).

Agreed ... and therefore I cannot wait for clear images of the Type 003 carrier. Here on the most recent ones you can get at least the impression, they begun adding the side-extensions for the flight deck.

View: https://twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1386184823383920641
 

Josh_TN

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Something I never realized; Type 75 doesn’t appear to use deck edge elevators.
 

totoro

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So, some observations. ...
003 carrier stuff2.jpg
Left is 003, middle is 001/002, rightmost carrier is kitty hawk.

The angle of the runway on 003 seems to be very close to that of the 002. While there is a slight difference on the drawing, in reality there may be no difference, due to imprecise measurement.
However, the difference between 003 and KH is so big that I doubt errors can be that big. It's likely that 003 will simply have runway that's less angled than KH or US carriers in general.


Yellow circles represent two points of interest. One seems to be a slight ledge on the port side. Such a protrusion is not visible on 002 but sometimes similar to it can be observed on some US carriers. It's possible the wait catapult will be positioned there.
Also, if positioned there, then the whole runway will be longer, basically as long as KH one, as it has to have enough length to support
the catapult length from the yellow circle to the edge of the runway.

The other yellow circle marks two holes for what seem to be weapons elevators. If the design is anything similar to 002, then the hangar should also stop right below those weapons elevators. Which would likely make it only slightly longer than the hangar on 002. Just how much longer is hard to tell. But possibly less than 10 meters longer.

Hangar width can't be assessed from these images, and the blue squares drawn on ships are NOT there to represent hangar width.
But from some of the earlier images, I remember hangar wall width seemed to be under 30 meters. So a bit wider than 002, but certainly still closer to 002 hangar width than to US carrier hangar widths.

Finally, the most recent images showing the rear elevator shows two things. When i sized everything up, the opening to the rest of the carrier - i got a measurement suggesting the width of the elevator opening is more or less exactly as wide as on one 002. If it is wider, than it's perhaps by a meter, not more. (these short red lines DO NOT represent hangar opening widths)

The short red lines represent general position of the rear elevator. Which seems to be exactly in the same spot as on 002. Given the limited placement options for the forward elevator, due to catapult launch stations, it's also quite likely that the forward elevator will be positioned at the same spot as on 002 as well.

While none of that indicates likelihood of the possibility for the third, port side, elevator - I do believe port side elevator is unlikely. Not only because other elevator layout seems to be the same as 002, which lacks port side elevators, but the position of the port side elevator would have to be quite at the back. Starting perhaps right below the last visible sponson. As seen with Kitty Hawk, such an elevator would usually be a bit more forward, before the ship's deck tapers towards the stern.
 
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Moose

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my personal opinion.
Type 75 is more interesting as a design since its a ground up, new, and original design.
the other two are still rooted in the old Kuznetsov (either directly or indirectly).
002 is more different under the skin than an exterior view indicates, based on shots of her construction. Nothing earth-shattering, but enough to say she's not merely a copy.
 

Wyvern

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Josh_TN

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I think carrier nuclear power is proving more difficult than subs in terms of scale.
 

Hood

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I thought it had already been long assumed that the Type 003 would be conventionally powered (with new IEP machinery) with the Type 004 being nuclear-powered?

This makes sense. After all only one Type 002 has been built and they are still on a learning curve of gaining experience. For example this is the first attempt at integrating catapults into the design, which will have had some impact on the internal layout compared with Type 002.
 

FighterJock

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I thought it had already been long assumed that the Type 003 would be conventionally powered (with new IEP machinery) with the Type 004 being nuclear-powered?

This makes sense. After all only one Type 002 has been built and they are still on a learning curve of gaining experience. For example this is the first attempt at integrating catapults into the design, which will have had some impact on the internal layout compared with Type 002.

So the Type 004 carrier will be the first PLAN carrier to be nuclear powered, What are the chances of a second Type 005 nuclear powered carrier? I would think that China would be better having two carriers that were nuclear powered as well as having the three conventional carriers.
 

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All things considering, I am looking forward to this CV when its complete.
 

Deino

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All things considering, I am looking forward to this CV when its complete.


Me too and indeed - as posted by @louischeung_hk - this is the so far clearest image of the Type 003 aircraft carrier.

I tried to rotate the original one a bit so that identifying details is a bit easier.

(Image via @捣蛋来啊 from Weibo)

PLN Type 003 carrier - 20210607 - 2 best+.jpg
 

CV12Hornet

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So I take it that the next carrier after the Type 003 might be nuclear powered. Strange that the PLAN did not make the 003 nuclear.
The Chinese have tended to prefer risk-managed iterative design with their new warships. Going CATOBAR and nuclear was likely too rich for their blood in that regard. Get the CATOBAR setup working and then go nuclear.
 

Archibald

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The risk of course is to end with a collection of "one off", jeune école style - French predreads at the turn of the century... (half-kidding, the chinese will never go "that" low).
There will always be useful roles even for the earliest, non-CATOBAR or non-nuclear carriers: training ship, big LPH, commando carrier, ASW carrier... naval history is packed full with alternate roles for older carriers.
 

helmutkohl

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I'm guessing it'll have two catapults based on that pic
one on the front, the other on the angled deck?
 

totoro

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There are two cat trenches visible on the bow section. So if there's a third one, it will be a waist catapult (on the angled deck). There is already a section visible sitting beside the ship, with a cat trench, that might be placed on the waist section in the near future.
 

shin_getter

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Would PLAN even go for a nuclear carrier? I though nuclear propulsion's advantage if only realized in either in huge number of deployments as duty for a global empire or large ammo and fuel loads in sustained operations against non-peer opponents. I don't think nuclear is much for short, sharp fights involving real ship and air group losses.
 

CV12Hornet

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Would PLAN even go for a nuclear carrier? I though nuclear propulsion's advantage if only realized in either in huge number of deployments as duty for a global empire or large ammo and fuel loads in sustained operations against non-peer opponents. I don't think nuclear is much for short, sharp fights involving real ship and air group losses.
The PLAN seems to want to conduct expeditionary ops in the Indian Ocean, and the Western Indian Ocean near Africa at that. Nuclear carriers would be very useful for that.
 

Josh_TN

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I think they would do it for pure prestige reasons alone. But there are also deployment reasons - the PRC aspires to be a global navy, but it would take the world stage starting with far fewer global possessions and allies than the US. Nuclear power might recommend itself, even down to the escort level, depending how friendly other countries are willing to be with basing rights. The US maintains three fleet commands in other countries; it seems a little unlikely the PRC has that luxury any time soon.
 

Archibald

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The US maintains three fleet commands in other countries; it seems a little unlikely the PRC has that luxury any time soon.

Considering their agressivity in the South China sea and beyond, they surely have very few friends there to refuel any warship. Only for that nuclear power may be necessary...
 

Hydroman

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One very important thing to remember regarding China, they have an economy and lots of money (thanks to US, Europe, etc farming out for cheaper manufacturing) as we now see regarding their rapid military build up, the old Soviet Union did not have an economy and essentially broke themselves. This is Cold War Part II but now with China, stay tuned.
 

In_A_Dream

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One very important thing to remember regarding China, they have an economy and lots of money (thanks to US, Europe, etc farming out for cheaper manufacturing) as we now see regarding their rapid military build up, the old Soviet Union did not have an economy and essentially broke themselves. This is Cold War Part II but now with China, stay tuned.
Yes, it does seem they have harvested a lot of knowledge from the West when they carefully crafted their future and learned from the Soviet Union. As much as analysts want to predict their collapse (and have been for decades), I believe due to their authoritarian nature and the amount of people they pulled out of poverty, nationalism will see them succeed, dangerously.
 

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