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Nakajma Ki-44-III?

lancer21

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Just wondering if there are any pictures or drawings with this aircraft , i havent seen anything anwyhere so far ...its a quite mysterious variant of the ubiquitous Ki-44 ( at least for me ). Suposed to have a 2000hp Ha-145 engine and a 4 blade prop.

Thank you for your help. :)
 

Hardrada55

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http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=5995.0

Check this out. And they say one prototype completed in June 1943. Apparently Ki-84 was preferred.
 

blackkite

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Hi! I can't find any Ki-44-Ⅲdrawings or pictures. Production number of Ki-44-Ⅲ were very few,because Ki-84 already marked high performance.
Wing area of Ki-44-Ⅲ was 19m2 where Ki-44-Ⅰand Ⅱ's wing area were 15m2. Wing shape changed and wing span 70cm increased.
Also vertical and horizontal tail stabilizer's area were increased.
Armament (甲(kou)-type):four 20mm cannons.
Armament (乙(Otsu)-type:two 37mm cannons and two 20mm cannons.
Engine:HA-145(2.000hp in take off)
Weight:2,886kg(MTOW?)
Propeller: 4 blades
(Source:My No.2 bible)
 

lancer21

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Thank you for your replies Hardrada55 and blackkite, very interesting and informative.
Do you know by any chance if this Ha-145 engine is related to the Ha-45 engine of the Ki-84?( power ratings are relatively close)

Thanks. :)
 

blackkite

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Hi! HA-145 and HA-45 were the name of the same engine Nakajima Homare(誉).
HA-45 was the unified name for The IJA and the IJN.
HA-145 was the name for the IJA.
NK9 was the name for the IJN.
Air cooling double array 18 cylinders, Bore:130mm, stroke:150mm, Displacement:35.8L, Compression ratio:7
 

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Tophe

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If nobody has ever seen a picture of the Ki-44 III, maybe it was something completely different from the standard Ki-44. This would be more pleasant ;D :D than just an engine change :-[ . I dream of a Ki-44 turned twin-engine free-nose, or twin-boom, or twin-fuselage à la Twin-Mustang... What is the evidence in texts to reject this (what-ifery) for sure?
 

blackkite

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Hi! I think Nakajima's engineers extended main wing chord of the original Ki-44 wing considering the position of C.G and A.C.
 

Nick Sumner

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blackkite said:
Hi! I think Nakajima's engineers extended main wing chord of the original Ki-44 wing considering the position of C.G and A.C.
Could Ki 84 III have been a start point for Ki 117?
 

lancer21

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blackkite said:
Hi! HA-145 and HA-45 were the name of the same engine Nakajima Homare(誉).
HA-45 was the unified name for The IJA and the IJN.
HA-145 was the name for the IJA.
NK9 was the name for the IJN.
Air cooling double array 18 cylinders, Bore:130mm, stroke:150mm, Displacement:35.8L, Compression ratio:7
Thank you for the clarification Blackkite, it is very helpful. I wonder ,are there any other japanese aircraft projects that use the Homare/Ha-45 engine under the "Ha-145" designation ?

Thank you for your time. :)

.
 

lancer21

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Nick Sumner said:
blackkite said:
Hi! I think Nakajima's engineers extended main wing chord of the original Ki-44 wing considering the position of C.G and A.C.
Could Ki 84 III have been a start point for Ki 117?
From what i know, Ki-117 is based on the Ki-84( initially it was called Ki-84N). It is a high altitude interceptor, has a bigger wing and a 2500hp Ha-219 engine.
 

CherryBlossom

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Just thought id bump this thread in stead of making a new one;

Has anyone found any more data on the Ki-44-III? We are looking for (everything) we can get our hands on. We know some specs, but that is it, and there are still many things we still need;

- Photograph to prove its existance
- Clear artist illustration
- Drawings, blueprints if such exist
- Performance data

Thanks,

Dean
 

Stargazer2006

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CherryBlossom said:
We are looking for (everything) we can get our hands on. We know some specs, but that is it, and there are still many things we still need;
Care to tell us who "we" is? ???
 

windswords

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Wow. A blast from the past.

A few observations:
If the Ki-44-III was to use the the Ha-45 "Homare" engine, it would look quite different. The original engine, the Nakajima Ha-41, was a very large diameter engine used in bombers, like the Ki-49 "Helen", which gave the Ki-44 its characteristic bulbous nose. The upgraded Ki-44-II and Ki-49-II used the Ha-109, which was an upgrade of the original Ha-41.

There is a picture of a Ki-44 in the FAOW series that as a contra-rotating propeller, so it looks like a a 4 bladed propeller unless you look closely at it. I can't read Japanese so I don't know what it is.

Here is the pic:
 

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windswords

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Also in the same FAOW issue, there is profile line drawing of a Ki-44 with individual exhaust stacks, but it is misidentified as a Ki-44-II with a single exhaust stack. Could this be the Ki-44-III? The same "homare" engine used in the Ki-84 also had individual exhaust stacks.
 

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CherryBlossom

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Skyblazer said:
CherryBlossom said:
We are looking for (everything) we can get our hands on. We know some specs, but that is it, and there are still many things we still need;
Care to tell us who "we" is? ???
Apologies, i mean myself and personal friends. We are trying to collect data on this aircraft so we can suggest it to the developers on the game War Thunder.
 

CherryBlossom

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windswords said:
Wow. A blast from the past.

A few observations:
If the Ki-44-III was to use the the Ha-45 "Homare" engine, it would look quite different. The original engine, the Nakajima Ha-41, was a very large diameter engine used in bombers, like the Ki-49 "Helen", which gave the Ki-44 its characteristic bulbous nose. The upgraded Ki-44-II and Ki-49-II used the Ha-109, which was an upgrade of the original Ha-41.

There is a picture of a Ki-44 in the FAOW series that as a contra-rotating propeller, so it looks like a a 4 bladed propeller unless you look closely at it. I can't read Japanese so I don't know what it is.

Here is the pic:
Thats very interesting, i think i saw the illustration of it on another thread. What is the story behind this model?
 

windswords

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Hi CherryBlossom,

I have been to your forum for War Thunder to look around. I don't play but I enjoy reading the discussions and seeing what you guys are up to. Some good stuff there!
 

CherryBlossom

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windswords said:
Hi CherryBlossom,

I have been to your forum for War Thunder to look around. I don't play but I enjoy reading the discussions and seeing what you guys are up to. Some good stuff there!
Thank you we are glad you like it! If of any interest (but to also not derail this topic) we convinced the developers to bring the R2Y2 into the game. What i was most excited about was the cockpit as we only have one photo of the R2Y1 cockpit. Here are a couple of screenshots i took!
- http://i.imgur.com/lXLG1tu.png
- http://i.imgur.com/K9O4vwO.png
 

windswords

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So the 2nd screenshot is based off a photo of the actual cockpit? Nice!
 

iverson

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CherryBlossom said:
windswords said:
Wow. A blast from the past.

A few observations:
If the Ki-44-III was to use the the Ha-45 "Homare" engine, it would look quite different. The original engine, the Nakajima Ha-41, was a very large diameter engine used in bombers, like the Ki-49 "Helen", which gave the Ki-44 its characteristic bulbous nose. The upgraded Ki-44-II and Ki-49-II used the Ha-109, which was an upgrade of the original Ha-41.

There is a picture of a Ki-44 in the FAOW series that as a contra-rotating propeller, so it looks like a a 4 bladed propeller unless you look closely at it. I can't read Japanese so I don't know what it is.

Here is the pic:
Thats very interesting, i think i saw the illustration of it on another thread. What is the story behind this model?
As usual, I cannot recall the source. But I remember reading that the contrarotating propellers were used on an the initial prototypes. The engine was unusually large and powerful for a Japanese fighter of the time, and the propellers were intended to allay fears about torque effects on the small airframe.
 

CherryBlossom

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iverson said:
CherryBlossom said:
windswords said:
Wow. A blast from the past.

A few observations:
If the Ki-44-III was to use the the Ha-45 "Homare" engine, it would look quite different. The original engine, the Nakajima Ha-41, was a very large diameter engine used in bombers, like the Ki-49 "Helen", which gave the Ki-44 its characteristic bulbous nose. The upgraded Ki-44-II and Ki-49-II used the Ha-109, which was an upgrade of the original Ha-41.

There is a picture of a Ki-44 in the FAOW series that as a contra-rotating propeller, so it looks like a a 4 bladed propeller unless you look closely at it. I can't read Japanese so I don't know what it is.

Here is the pic:
Thats very interesting, i think i saw the illustration of it on another thread. What is the story behind this model?
As usual, I cannot recall the source. But I remember reading that the contrarotating propellers were used on an the initial prototypes. The engine was unusually large and powerful for a Japanese fighter of the time, and the propellers were intended to allay fears about torque effects on the small airframe.
So the contra rotating propellers were used on what Ki-44 model? And is there a performance sheet on it?
 

CherryBlossom

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blackkite said:
Only one modified Ki-44-Ⅰexperimental aircraft for contra rotating propeller test was made.
No data sheet is available.

http://hobbycom.jp/my/4b39e9e18f/photo/products/17154
Great pictures black!

Do you know of the performance and armament?
 

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This aircraft was one of the Nakajima Ki-44 earlier prototypes.
 

iverson

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>>As usual, I cannot recall the source. But I remember reading that the contrarotating propellers were used on an the initial prototypes. The engine was unusually large and powerful for a Japanese fighter of the time, and the propellers were intended to allay fears about torque effects on the small airframe.

>So the contra rotating propellers were used on what Ki-44 model? And is there a performance sheet on it?

As Blackkite notes, it was one of the early prototypes. To the best of my knowledge, it was a predecessor of the operational Ki-44s, not a development of them. So it would not be the Ki-44-III, even though, as Windswords notes, the propellers could, perhaps, appear to be a single four-blade unit.

Contrarotating propellers were developed as insurance against potential handling problems during takeoff and landing. The engine was large and powerful for a Japanese fighter of the time and for a relatively small, closely coupled airframe. Given lack of experience with designs of this type, the developers explored contrarotating propellers as a way of correcting any torque-related controllability issues that might emerge during later flight testing. The contrarotating props worked. But in the event, the handling improvements did not prove significant enough to offset the added weight and complexity. So all subsequent Ki-44s had single propellers.

Since it was an early, pre-production prototype, I imagine that the contra-prop airplane would have had the same armament as the initial production models, had it gone into production. I also doubt that speed, altitude, or range performance would have been signnificantly different from the standard aircraft peformance.


 

CherryBlossom

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iverson said:
>>As usual, I cannot recall the source. But I remember reading that the contrarotating propellers were used on an the initial prototypes. The engine was unusually large and powerful for a Japanese fighter of the time, and the propellers were intended to allay fears about torque effects on the small airframe.

>So the contra rotating propellers were used on what Ki-44 model? And is there a performance sheet on it?

As Blackkite notes, it was one of the early prototypes. To the best of my knowledge, it was a predecessor of the operational Ki-44s, not a development of them. So it would not be the Ki-44-III, even though, as Windswords notes, the propellers could, perhaps, appear to be a single four-blade unit.

Contrarotating propellers were developed as insurance against potential handling problems during takeoff and landing. The engine was large and powerful for a Japanese fighter of the time and for a relatively small, closely coupled airframe. Given lack of experience with designs of this type, the developers explored contrarotating propellers as a way of correcting any torque-related controllability issues that might emerge during later flight testing. The contrarotating props worked. But in the event, the handling improvements did not prove significant enough to offset the added weight and complexity. So all subsequent Ki-44s had single propellers.

Since it was an early, pre-production prototype, I imagine that the contra-prop airplane would have had the same armament as the initial production models, had it gone into production. I also doubt that speed, altitude, or range performance would have been signnificantly different from the standard aircraft peformance.
Thank you!

It looks like an interesting plane. Would the armament be the same as the model it was modified from? if it went into production.
 

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CherryBlossum et al.:

I was looking through some profiles I had saved and found this. I can't vouch for its accuracy but it says it is a Ki-44-III. Unfortunately I don't know it's source.
 

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CherryBlossom

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windswords said:
CherryBlossum et al.:

I was looking through some profiles I had saved and found this. I can't vouch for its accuracy but it says it is a Ki-44-III. Unfortunately I don't know it's source.
Great stuff Windswords! You can notice the differentiation with the exhaust pipes which helps!

I have come across a few things on the aircraft but not as merely great if a found performance or photo.
 

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windswords

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Surprising that no photos exist of the Ki-43-III. We have lots of pictures of the Ki-87 prototype but none of this one. :'(
 

CherryBlossom

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Just thought id revisit this thread,

Has any new information surfaced? the Ki-44-III still presents an odd but interesting tale.

To kick things off, it seems reading back that some sources are contradictory in saying the Ki-44-III Ko / Otsu were made and then some saying they were not. Any thoughts? What do Japanese sources say about this aircraft?

Painfully i can't read Japanese, but perhaps this sources reveals something: https://www.scribd.com/document/148748960/Bunrindo-Famous-Airplanes-of-the-World-16-Nakajima-Ki-44-Shoki-Army-Type-2-Fighter#
 

blackkite

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Ummm.........Hard to find any Ki-44-III picture in this book.
 

CherryBlossom

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blackkite said:
Ummm.........Hard to find any Ki-44-III picture in this book.
Ahh thats a shame, would anything in the archives in Japan reveal anything do you think?
 

blackkite

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Almost no new information.

A few fighter aircraft called Ki-44-Ⅲ were manufactured. This fighter was equipped with a Ha145 engine (take off power, 2,000 hp), and increased the wing area to 19 square meters, it was a performance-enhancing type. The width of the wing of this fighter plane has increased about 70cm, the area of the rudder and the elevator was increased. The weight of this fighter is 2886kg, the propeller is four blades constant speed type. The takeoff and landing performance of this fighter was equivalent to Ki- 44-Ⅱ and the effect of the rudder was improved. This fighter was completed in June 1943 and completed the examination of practicality in December. When this fighter was completed, because the Ki-84 fighter had already been completed, this fighter was rejected. This fighter has been planned two sub-types, the Ko-type was equipped with a four 20mm cannon, Otsu-type was equipped with two 20mm Cannon and two 37mm Cannon(Ho-203).

Source(Page 14)
https://www.scribd.com/document/148748960/Bunrindo-Famous-Airplanes-of-the-World-16-Nakajima-Ki-44-Shoki-Army-Type-2-Fighter#

Ho-203 cannon Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho-203_cannon
 

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CherryBlossom

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blackkite said:
Almost no new information.

A few fighter aircraft called Ki-44-Ⅲ were manufactured. This fighter was equipped with a Ha145 engine (take off power, 2,000 hp), and increased the wing area to 19 square meters, it was a performance-enhancing type. The width of the wing of this fighter plane has increased about 70cm, the area of the rudder and the elevator was increased. The weight of this fighter is 2886kg, the propeller is four blades constant speed type. The takeoff and landing performance of this fighter was equivalent to Ki- 44-Ⅱ and the effect of the rudder was improved. This fighter was completed in June 1943 and completed the examination of practicality in December. When this fighter was completed, because the Ki-84 fighter had already been completed, this fighter was rejected. This fighter has been planned two sub-types, the Ko-type was equipped with a four 20mm cannon, Otsu-type was equipped with two 20mm Cannon and two 37mm Cannon(Ho-203).

Source(Page 14)
https://www.scribd.com/document/148748960/Bunrindo-Famous-Airplanes-of-the-World-16-Nakajima-Ki-44-Shoki-Army-Type-2-Fighter#

Ho-203 cannon Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho-203_cannon
Thanks for the translation,

It seems the 37 mm cannon is rather large for the Ki-44s wings - would you think the wings will have been modified or the gun being modified to fit?
 

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CherryBlossom said:
It seems the 37 mm cannon is rather large for the Ki-44s wings - would you think the wings will have been modified or the gun being modified to fit?
The gun itself isnt too big, it would probably have been fitted in under wing pylons or gunpods. For the magazine though a straight mag would have been needed. I bet around 20-30 rounds per gun.
 

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blockhaj said:
CherryBlossom said:
It seems the 37 mm cannon is rather large for the Ki-44s wings - would you think the wings will have been modified or the gun being modified to fit?
The gun itself isnt too big, it would probably have been fitted in under wing pylons or gunpods. For the magazine though a straight mag would have been needed. I bet around 20-30 rounds per gun.
Thanks blockhaj that sounds pretty realistic, also interesting to see you here ;)
 

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CherryBlossom said:
Thanks blockhaj that sounds pretty realistic, also interesting to see you here ;)
Ye fun to see ur here too. B)
 

blackkite

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I see. Sharp opinion about 37mm cannon installation.
 
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