• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Mustang Variants

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,783
Reaction score
7
Seems to be Ed Horkey's Twin Mustang Racer project of 1995...
If correct ,it's not in it's place here..
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,251
Reaction score
1,053
That's right my dear Lark,

and now I know it was real designs,we can open new topic for it.
 

Stargazer2006

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,242
Reaction score
100
hesham said:
and now I know it was real designs,we can open new topic for it.
Only if there's more to add than these pictures, which I'm not sure about. Although it certainly has nothing to do in this here topic, it's not completely unrelated as Horkey was a former North American engineer, deeply involved in design and development of most fighters during and after WW2. He died in 1996 and his design died with him.
 

Motocar

I really should change my personal text
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
608
Reaction score
38
Griffon Mustang schematic cut after the link, speculative work

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,23005.msg286223.html#msg286223
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
6,049
Reaction score
406
Similar concept.....
I have never seen the original drawing of Me509. Sorry for off topic.
 

Attachments

RyanCrierie

Crazy Researcher
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
835
Reaction score
22
Website
www.alternatewars.com
GTX said:
This was supposedly a proposal that North American had come up with in case the war had continued. As you can see, it had forward swept wings as well as an advanced (specifically how I don't know), a Westinghouse jet engine in the rear fuselage and a tricycle undercarriage.
I ran across this in NARA during this week in the Sarah Clark Files. Apparently this was an unsolicited proposal that NAA gave to the USAAF in the hopes of maybe pushing the Mustang forward.

USAAF took a look, and said... "hmm...nope."
 

RyanCrierie

Crazy Researcher
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
835
Reaction score
22
Website
www.alternatewars.com
jimbrooks said:
This book does have 1 or 2 pages of details and pictures about a rocket-powered P-51.
"P-51D Flash" Program. Begun during the winter of 1944/45 to counter German Jet fighters. Was intended to counter them by providing the P-51 and P-47 with a brief one time burst of speed to 500~ MPH to catch up with jets.

Damn, I wish Steve Pace was still with us. He'd love the stuff I found. :-[
 

RyanCrierie

Crazy Researcher
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
835
Reaction score
22
Website
www.alternatewars.com
The AAF during the development of the P-51H just could not make up it's mind over armament:

4 x .50 cal
6 x .50 cal
4 x .60 cal
4 x 20mm

They tried pushing a 4 x 20mm armed pair of wings onto NAA, to which NAA replied "sorry, we're too busy with detail engineering on the P-51H and P-82 project to do a change order for 20mm in the P-51H."
 

RyanCrierie

Crazy Researcher
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
835
Reaction score
22
Website
www.alternatewars.com
Last week I ran across the following document in the P-51 folder at NARA II in P-26 Sarah Clark:

-------------------------------------

RVS:WW:ms 3-3

January 30, 1943

Production Engineering Section
Pursuit Branch

Attention: Lt. P.M. Hollowell

Serial Numbers for P-51's 452.1

1. Confirming our conversation, the following Serial Numbers were assigned:

a. Contract AC-30479, North American, Inglewood.

100 P-51A1 43-6003 through 43-6102
210 P-51A5 43-6103 through 43-6312
400 P-51B5 43-6313 through 43-6712
490 P-51D1 43-6713 through 43-7202
550 P-51D1 43-106429 through 42-106978

b. New Numbers Assigned:

150 P-51D1 43-24752 through 43-24901

c. Contract AC-33940, North American, Dallas,

400 P-51C1 42-102979 through 42-103378
600 P-51E1 42-103379 through 42-103978

d. New Numbers Assigned:

350 P-51E1 43-24902 through 43-25251

W. D. ECHERT
Colonel, Air Corps
Executive
for Statistical Control

1 cy. to Records Branch
Air Service Command

-------------------------------------

I did some checking of various online serial numbers; and the very first P-51E-1, 42-103379; was completed as a P-51C-7 and it was written off as beyond repair on 19 August 1944 (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=113543)

Likewise, the last P-51E-1 of the first set (42-103978) was completed as a P-51C (http://www.aircorpsaviation.com/Websites/aircorpsaviation/Images/Combined%20Files/60J-51.pdf).

I wish Steve was still with us. :-[
 

blockhaj

Swedish "want to be" aviation specialist
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
124
Reaction score
9
Im looking for info on the P-51K's and D's in China.
 

tomi

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Mustang progression

Hello

Was there plan for P 51 Mustang follower with 20 - 30 mm cannons and contra props or 8 bladed propeller ( maybe forward swept wings, I am not sure) ?
Someting with R mentioned in the name. I am not sure is this real "what if" Project or somebodys imagination.
I remeber seeing an 1:48 plastic model or RC build picture in internet, but can`t find that picture.
Please can somebody help ?
 

Avimimus

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
1,932
Reaction score
17
Re: Mustang progression

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2397.0/all.html

The forum search function may help ;)
 

kitnut617

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
305
Reaction score
24
Nice, interesting you drawn in cuffed prop blades ---- my conversation I've had with David Birch who co-wrote the Rolls Royce Heritage Trust book called RR and the Mustang, said it would have been a De Havilland prop. He also told me it would have been armed with three 20mm cannon. It wouldn't have had the wing root leading edge extension either, RR used wings from issued 'surplus to requirement' Mustang Mk.1. There is actually a 1/10 scale wind tunnel model of it still in existence where I was able to check my model dimensions from. At the time though, it was a Private Venture Fighter, not a Flying Test Bed.

Like this below.
 

Attachments

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
587
Reaction score
109
fomr; https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56c78acd0442626b2590f5ea/t/590591d02994ca1b11d96680/1493537249560/2009-2_Summer.pdf
 

Attachments

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,251
Reaction score
1,053
Amazing find my dears Sienar and Johnbr.
 

Aubi

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
84
Reaction score
78
Website
www.valka.cz
Just your standard TF-51D. Cavalier also did two-seater conversions, but those had different canopy.
 

riggerrob

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
395
Reaction score
35
The USAAF only bought a handful of TF-51D trainers shortly after WW2.
Cavalier added second seats to a few of the P-51Ds they overhauled during the 1960s. Cavalier canopies look almost the same as stock P-51D canopies. Cavalier conversions can be distinguished by their taller tails and wing tip fuel tanks.
All the Cavalier modifications were incorporated into the Piper Enforcer COIN prototype of the -970s. The Enforcer also got a turboprop engine and a longer, re-lofted aft fuselage, the US AF never ordered production. We wonder what political forces drove the Enforcer project????

Later civilian conversions to two seats have a horrid mosh-mash of rear seat pans. Some after-market rear seats accept stock USAAF seat-type parachutes, while others require custom-sized back type parachutes.
I have packed pilot emergency parachutes for all the different P-51 variants. Many of my customers competed at the Reno Air Races.
Air racers did a wide variety of modifications to become more competitive in Cleveland or Reno air races. They started by gutting race planes of superfluous military equipment like guns, radios, armour, etc.
Cleveland Air Racers tried a variety of ways to increase range: wet wings, etc.
Reno racers went the other way by clipping wing tips and sometimes horizontal tails as well, but some found that they needed taller vertical tails to handle increased speeds and horsepower.
At least one racing Mustang was retro-fitted with Learjet wings!
A few racers even tried to remove belly radiators to reduce drag. A few Mustangs races with evaporative cooling, but never medaled.
During the late 1940s, one smooth-bellied P-51B got wing-tip radiators that resembled ram-jets from a distance.
One or two racing Mustangs even got RR Griffon engines that are distinguishable by the counter-rotating propellers.Most racers got tiny canopies and extensive detailing to further reduce drag. Think about Bondo and micro-balloons and thousands of hours of hand sanding to hide skin joints.
These days, racing Mustangs almost look like stock P-51Ds with smaller canopies. They get much of their extra speed by boosting manifold pressures up to 50 inches!
 

riggerrob

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
395
Reaction score
35
The only production jet-powered Mustangs were the 33 FJ-1 Fury fighters built for the US Navy. The first batch of Furies used P-51D wings and tails to support a completely new fuselage. Later, NAAA morphed the Fury into the F-86 Sabre swept-wing jet fighter. The last batch of FJ-4 Furies shared no common parts with the first batch.
 

robunos

You're Mad, You Are.....
Senior Member
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
1,757
Reaction score
17
Just your standard TF-51D. Cavalier also did two-seater conversions, but those had different canopy.
Not so, I believe. Take a look at the image below. At 'A', is what appears to be a flush-type air intake, and at 'B' there's some sort of air outlet that I've never previously seen on a P/F-51.
My thought is that this version was to be powered by the same engine, or variant of, the engine used in the F-82 Twin Mustang . . .

cheers,
Robin.
 

Attachments

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
587
Reaction score
109
The belly scoop is F-82ish, extending back to the LE of the horizontal.
 

robunos

You're Mad, You Are.....
Senior Member
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
1,757
Reaction score
17
It looks like a 2-seat version of the P-51H
Just what I was thinking . . . hadn't noticed until now, there is no kink in the inboard leading edge, so not a 'D' . . . I'd still like to know what those'extras' are on the cowling, though.

cheers,
Robin,
 

Aubi

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
84
Reaction score
78
Website
www.valka.cz
The tail is more H-ish, I agree. So does the belly scoop. For me, the rest is probably fault of the artist who did the drawing. No such thing on the cowling of P-82 either.
 

RAP

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2008
Messages
640
Reaction score
214
Also only has 1 .50 cal. in the wing.
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,007
Reaction score
110
It has a fair few hardpoints, proposal for a ground attack variant?
 

iverson

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
235
Reaction score
7
It looks like a 2-seat version of the P-51H
Also, note the similarity between the canopy and that of the T-28. Based on the exhaust, I'd say it had Packard-Merlin power, rather than the Allisons that powered most of the F-82s.
 

taildragger

You can count on me - I won a contest
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
220
Reaction score
50
I've read that the F-82's adoption of the Allison engine was driven by the unavailability of US-built Merlins rather than engineering considerations. All Merlin-specific production hardware was apparently scrapped with the end of P-51 production in compliance with the licensing agreement.
 

iverson

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
235
Reaction score
7
I've read that the F-82's adoption of the Allison engine was driven by the unavailability of US-built Merlins rather than engineering considerations. All Merlin-specific production hardware was apparently scrapped with the end of P-51 production in compliance with the licensing agreement.
I've read the same thing. But it nonetheless looks like a Merlin in the trainer. The Allison did not stay in production very long either. So I'd speculate that the trainer would have been planned around existing engine stocks until Korean War demand consumed the inventory.
 

kitnut617

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
305
Reaction score
24
The story I read it was something to do with the licensing cost Rolls Royce wanted for the Merlin production post-war that killed the Merlin powered Mustangs.
 
Top