Mustang Variants

GTX

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Hi folks,

A new thread for and unknown, secret or rare North American P-51 Mustang variants. I'll start off by including what may have been the ultimate Mustang:

UlitimateMustang.jpg


This was supposedly a proposal that North American had come up with in case the war had continued. As you can see, it had forward swept wings as well as an advanced (specifically how I don't know), a Westinghouse jet engine in the rear fuselage and a tricycle undercarriage.

Regards,

Greg
 

XP67_Moonbat

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Slightly clearer version
 

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Justo Miranda

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Here some additional info ...
 

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Firefly 2

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Probably a dumb question: Where would the .50's go?

This wing doesn't seem to have the required space to store the then standard complement of 6*.50 Browning guns.
 

frank

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Interesting that the prop was to rotate 'the wrong direction'!
 

Michel Van

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your sure it a jet engine ?
look more a motorjet (aka thermojet)

there was also a P-51 Ramjet version
North_American_P-51D_with_Ramjets._SN_44-63528_with_two_XRJ-30-MA_Ramjets_in_May_1948_at_Wright-Patterson_AFB,_Ohio_061023-F-1234P-024.jpg

fantasic art with P-51 ramjet
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7238.0.html

more on Jet Mustangs
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3637.0.html

F-82 Twin Mustang
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6748.0.html
 

Skyraider3D

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Michel Van said:
fantasic art with P-51 ramjet
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7238.0.html
Thanks, glad you like it! :)

Attached a crop of this image but edited to look like an old magazine photo.


Here's an older piece with the same aircraft but with MTO markings. Needless to say it's all fictional.

juef100_4.jpg


The aircraft in the background is a Junkers EF 100 transport, dressed up as "Immelmann V"... ;)
 

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mz

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Great work! That postcard is especially well done, as most artificially aged stuff is not convincing at all.
 

Steve Pace

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GTX said:
Hi folks,

A new thread for and unknown, secret or rare North American P-51 Mustang variants. I'll start off by including what may have been the ultimate Mustang:

UlitimateMustang.jpg


This was supposedly a proposal that North American had come up with in case the war had continued. As you can see, it had forward swept wings as well as an advanced (specifically how I don't know), a Westinghouse jet engine in the rear fuselage and a tricycle undercarriage.

Regards,

Greg
Can you send me a high res image of this drawing. Thanks!

Steve Pace
 

Arjen

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Arjen said:
Stargazer2006 said:
North American "mid-engined Mustang"
index.php

Original source: not available
Debunking: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5933.msg121649.html#msg121649
richard B said:
In Green's "Fighters" vol 4 p 141 ,there is a photo of the mock-up of a Mustang fitted with a RR Merlin aft of the cockpit : " y " is not a what-if , but a serious project.
I have a copy of William Green's "Fighters" vol 4, will scan image. Real project.
<edit> Found an image here.
index.php

<edit>Added William Green's image.
index.php
 

Arjen

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It's not a Merlin, but a Griffon engine.
Looking at the size of the engine that might well be true. Do you have more information?
I found this here:
The Merlin conversion was very promising, but the director of the Hucknall establishment, Ray Dorey, had an even more ambitious idea. He wanted to mate the Mustang to a Griffon engine, mounted behind the pilot as was the Allison in the Bell P-39 Airacobra. Rolls-Royce engineers believed this aircraft would be capable of a top speed of 800 KPH (500 MPH), but it never progressed beyond the mock-up stage.
This was a Rolls Royce testbed.
William Green's image caption: "The mock-up of Rolls-Royce's proposal to mount a Merlin engine in the Mustang aft of the cockpit."
 

lark

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Gentlemen,

Try the searchfunction for Rolls Royce FTB Mustang

and /or FTB Mustang...

Good luck.
 

Justo Miranda

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Additional info...
 

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Stargazer2006

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I knew about the F.T.B. Mustang project, but I thought the one depicted in the model was different. It uses a P-51B-type fuselage and canopy instead of the later P-51D-type used in your graphics, Justo.
 

Arjen

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lark said:
Gentlemen,

Try the searchfunction for Rolls Royce FTB Mustang

and /or FTB Mustang...

Good luck.
Knowing what to look for helps :)
 

circle-5

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North American Aviation FSW Mixed Propulsion P-51 Mustang (proposed) factory model.
 

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jimbrooks

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Fascinating. What books describe the forward-swept P-51 prototype or other prototypes?

I have found one paragraph in Mustang Designer: Edgar Schmued and the P-51, Ray Wagner.
This book does have 1 or 2 pages of details and pictures about a rocket-powered P-51.
IIRC, North American F-86 Sabre Owners' Workshop Manual mentions advanced P-51 prototypes
before those evolved into the FJ/F-86.

I've been collection information about the exotic variants of the P-51 Mustang here:
http://www.jimbrooks.org/web/aviation/info_P-51Mustang.php
(comments welcome)
 

fightingirish

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Re: Mustang Variants / North American D-118

Orionblamblam said:
North American D-118

A North American Aviation concept for a highly modified P-82, dating from 1949. The piston engines would be removed and replaced with Allison XT-38 turboprops. The engines would be located mid-fuselage, necessitating that the cockpit would have to be moved well forward of their normal position. The end result would be a plane that weighed the same, gave the pilots better views and went substantially faster.
This one may show up in a future issue of USBP, as the intended role was ground attack.


Link: http://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/blog/?p=1537


Nice find, Orionblamblam! B) :)
 

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Jemiba

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Not a 3-view, rather a very basic general arrangement drawing:
 

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Stargazer2006

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Jemiba said:
Not a 3-view, rather a very basic general arrangement drawing:


Thanks, Jens. I almost did one myself but thought I was lacking some solid reference for the XT38 in that configuration.
 

Jemiba

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There's no solid reference, of course, just that artist impression !
As the engine was to be positioned in the mid fuselage, there would have been hardly
much impact on the shape of fuselage, besides the repositioned cockpit and the deletion of
the belly scoop, I think. At least that's my interpretation of the drawing and of what seems
to be an intake directly in the nose, but I admit, that it would be appropriate to the "Theoritical
and Speculative" section, too. ;)
 

Jemiba

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All the better ! I think, we'll see it in the mentioned future APR issue ?
 

Stargazer2006

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Interesting that TsAGI had a designation for the FSW Mustang: RD-1410. (source: Tekhnicheskaya Informatsiya, No.7, 1981)
 

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Steve Pace

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So that's where it came from - not in my book. It never happened! -SP
 

pacopepe

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P 51 with forward swept wings and mixed propulsion, in the korean war. MY MODEL.
 

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kitnut617

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Skyblazer said:
I knew about the F.T.B. Mustang project, but I thought the one depicted in the model was different. It uses a P-51B-type fuselage and canopy instead of the later P-51D-type used in your graphics, Justo.

It wasn't a P-51B that Rolls Royce used, it was some 'surplus to requirements' Mustang Mk.1's ( the Allison engine variant) that were assigned to the project. The Rolls Royce Heritage Trust has a book on it called 'Rolls Royce and the Mustang' written by David Birch who is also the Official Rolls Royce Historian. The engine in the photos in the above posts is a Griffon. I had contacted David about this aircraft and asked him if he had any dimensional drawings of it, he told me that a 1/10 wind tunnel model of it still exists and he knew who has it. I asked him to confirm some dimensions I needed, which he did. He also told me that after the wind tunnel testing had been done, they found that the tail surfaces needed about 60% more area and that to expedite the matter they would used a Tempest tail assembly had it flown.

These are my two models of it, green/brown one is the Rolls Royce Private Venture Fighter, the silver one is the Flying Test Bed with the Tempest tail fitted and also powered by a Crecy 2-Stroke engine.

(UPDATED the photo attachments)
 

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RyanC

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Does anyone have any information on a possible P-51E Mustang?

I just ran across a reference to it in FLYING Magazine; September 1945; with the terse text:

"Between the D and the H, the E died on the design boards..."
 

Steve Pace

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Hi Ryan,
From what I learned for my Mustang book the P-51E-NT (NA-111) was to be Dallas-built P-51D-NTs but they became NA-111 P-51K-NTs airplanes instead. NAA initiated work on NA-111 on 3 May 1943.
Have you posted any new SACs lately? -SP
 

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Where are the charger air intakes on the Griffon and Crecy Mustang models? Is all intake air coming through the cooling air intakes?
 

hesham

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Hi,

can we consider those two modern racer twin Mustang aircraft a real designs ?.

http://alternathistory.org.ua/gonka-za-prizrakom-skorosti-poslednii-pryzhok-mustanga-chast-2?mini=calendar%2F2015-03
 

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