Multi-seat conversions of warbirds?

[riggerrob]

These days, there is a growing market for "discovery flights" in warbirds. They started with stock, military-surplus, 2-seater trainers (e.g. Harvard) but have branched out to include Me.109, Spitfire and Hurricane. A few British operations even offer formation flights - for extra passengers - in vintage deHavilland passenger planes (Heron or Dragon Rapide). Some one has to help pay the massive restoration and maintenance costs for those rare antiques.
Back when I worked in the pilot emergency parachute business (Butler, Para-Phernalia and Rigging Innovations) I packed a bewildering array of PEPs for World War 2 vintage warbirds. Many single-seater fighters had been converted to carry an extra person in a jump-seat. Some of those jump-seats were crude one-offs that crammed the extra person into tight spaces recently vacated by radio, armor, fuel tanks, etc. OTOH some were converted proffessionaly and are exact copies of the rare USAF TF-51D Mustang two-seater trainers.
I am most interested in airplanes that only left the factory as single-seaters, but were later converted for civilian owners: Corsair, Hawker Hurricane, Hawker Sea Fury, Messerschmitt Br.109, NAA P-51D Mustang, Supermarine Spitfire, Yak fighters, etc.
Photos or drawings would be helpful.
How many have a complete second set of instruments and controls?
How many have partial controls or partial instrument panels?
How many only add seat(s)?
Speaking of seats ... the record seems to be the 3-seat wide sofa that and Argentinian installed in the aft fuselage of his Grumman Wildcat.
How many extra seats did Bob Diemart install in his Fairey Firefly restoration?

Yes, most of these conversions were done after WW2, but the key point is that the airplanes were originally made before 1946.

 

[elmayerle]

Don't forget two-seat conversions of P-51B/C aircraft, done during WW II and after. Too, there was a P-51D in Canadian registration that had the aft canopy of a CF-100 and was considered for a 4-seat conversion but, to the best of my knowledge, that did not occur.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

Both Spitfire and Bf 109 had original design authority twin seat versions;- the Tr9 and Bf109-G12. I don’t believe either was delivered as new builds, so all were conversions from single seats.

Also I think there was a Hawker designed twin seat Hurricane, just two conversions;- open cockpits.

 

[famvburg]

I saw one F4U-1 owned by the late Junior Burchinal of Paris(?), Tx. in the summer of 1978 when he stopped for fuel at the FBO where I worked. The left half of the deck behind the canopy and covered with a thin sheet of plexi with a crude hardware store latch a I think piano hinge. No instruments and only a seat, stick and rudder pedals. I think there is another Corsair with a second seat but the plexi was tinted very dark blue. Might be the same one but I think it is a -4 or later.

 

[riggerrob]

Soviets converted a few lend-lease Hurricanes to two-seat trainers and at least one got a rear-ward firing machine gun.
A few P-51B and C (ridge back) were field converted to two seaters. The most famous use was General Eisenhower surveying the D-Day beaches from his personal P-51 conversion.
After WW2, TEMCO converted about 20 to TF-51 configuration for the USAF. TF-51Ds got a full set of controls and instruments in the rear seat. They also got extended bubble canopies to provide head-room for the rear seat pilot.
Several civilian owners did similar conversions with various degrees of respect far the TF-51 configuration.

 

[Magman]

There was at last one Bell P-59 Airacomet with a second cockpit added.

It was located forward of the original one and was an open cockpit!

 

[riggerrob]

There was at last one Bell P-59 Airacomet with a second cockpit added.

It was located forward of the original one and was an open cockpit!

Yes, that second cockpit was located in the P-59's original gun bay. The second pilot replaced the weight of ammo and guns.
By the same token, many other multi-seat conversions replace the weight of rear armor and rear fuel tanks with the weight of the second pilot. Many of those original single-seaters were marginally stable with the aft fuel tank full. Marginal stability improved cruise performance, but you would not want to dogfight with a full aft fuel tank.

 

[famvburg]

Vought proposed a trainer version of the F4U-1. Second cockpit was forward of the standard location and the canopy was similar in appearance to a T-34 canopy, IMHO. It is covered in a post here in SPF.

 

[ACResearcher]

F4U Tandem trainer from my files.

AlanG

 

[ZacYates]

Too, there was a P-51D in Canadian registration that had the aft canopy of a CF-100 and was considered for a 4-seat conversion but, to the best of my knowledge, that did not occur.

It did. It was another of Bob Diemert's projects.

Speaking of seats ... the record seems to be the 3-seat wide sofa that and Argentinian installed in the aft fuselage of his Grumman Wildcat.
How many extra seats did Bob Diemart install in his Fairey Firefly restoration?

The Firefly seated eight passengers. Following on from the Sofacat, F8F-2P Bearcat N212KA had two rear-facing seats. I found out about it when I asked about two-seat Bearcats in this thread at WIX, where there are great photos of the installation.

Pioneer Aero in New Zealand developed a two-seat mod for P-40s that has been applied to several aircraft, I believe some with just a seat but others have some instrumentation and controls. This video was shot in Pioneer-restored P-40N 42-104730/A29-448/ZK-CAG and gives an idea of what the backseater has in that airframe:

View: https://youtu.be/jeB7Aw8IdQc

Doug Hamilton's P-40N VH-PFO restored by Precision Airmotive in Australia has a similar setup - a friend of mine was rated in it right before COVID so I'll ask him what VH-PFO has for the back seat. EDIT: he says the rear cockpit has a stick, pedals, throttle quadrant and rudimentary panel with airspeed, turn and slip, altimeter, coolant temp, tacho and manifold pressure gauges.

 

[elmayerle]

I still think one of the more interesting two-seat P-51D's was an aircraft of the 4th Fighter Group that was modified with British AI. mk.6 radar and had the rear canopy split into two sections. The only place I've seen a picture of it, outside of thread here, was in the "Debden Eagles" book published years ago.

 

[VictorXL188]

If I remember correctly a large number of the Soviet fighters of WW2 had two-seat versions

 

[ZacYates]

Not to take away from the historical record but - correct me if I'm wrong @riggerrob - this thread is about civilian warbird conversions.

I think there is another Corsair with a second seat but the plexi was tinted very dark blue. Might be the same one but I think it is a -4 or later.

I'm not 100% on if it has a seat in there but Planes of Fame's NX83782 definitely has the blue-tinted rear windows.

 

[riggerrob]

Not to take away from the historical record but - correct me if I'm wrong @riggerrob - this thread is about civilian warbird conversions.

I think there is another Corsair with a second seat but the plexi was tinted very dark blue. Might be the same one but I think it is a -4 or later.

I'm not 100% on if it has a seat in there but Planes of Fame's NX83782 definitely has the blue-tinted rear windows.

Yes, thanks for the reminder. this thread started was originally about WW2 vintage warbirds later converted to multi-seaters by later civilian owners.
I have also seen an F4U Corsair with dark blue window(s) low-set in the aft fuselage ... near where you would expect an after-market baggage compartment .... and similar to the Wildcouch conversion.

 

[famvburg]

Not to take away from the historical record but - correct me if I'm wrong @riggerrob - this thread is about civilian warbird conversions.

I think there is another Corsair with a second seat but the plexi was tinted very dark blue. Might be the same one but I think it is a -4 or later.

I'm not 100% on if it has a seat in there but Planes of Fame's NX83782 definitely has the blue-tinted rear windows.

Yes, thanks for the reminder. this thread started was originally about WW2 vintage warbirds later converted to multi-seaters by later civilian owners.
I have also seen an F4U Corsair with dark blue window(s) low-set in the aft fuselage ... near where you would expect an after-market baggage compartment .... and similar to the Wildcouch conversion.

The one I remember had them right behind the canopy.

 

[ZacYates]

A couple of other forum threads to check out on two-seat Corsairs:

two place Corsair

Has there ever been two place F4U, F3A, or FG-1? In the early 80's, a man (who had a reputation for tall tales) told me he and his son owned and were flying one.

eaaforums.org

Warbird Information Exchange • View topic - Two-Seater Corsairs

www.warbirdinformationexchange.org

A poster in the EAA thread mentioned that the Cavanaugh Flight Museum's Corsair was at one point on their rides programme - that airframe may have been BuNo92399/N451FG.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

There were two Bell P-63 conversions done (with civilian registration NX 41963 and -64) for company use:

 

[riggerrob]

There were two Bell P-63 conversions done (with civilian registration NX 41963 and -64) for company use:

View attachment 670924

Yes, Magic Box Hobbies (Vancouver) had a small scale plastic model of that conversion last time I visited. The kit was molded by an Eastern European company.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Another P-63 conversion is this Russian one they dubbed the TSNEB P-63 UTI



It is a 2-seat trainer version.

Bell actually made some of these conversions as well as the RP-39Q-22-BE

 

[ZacYates]

There were two Bell P-63 conversions done (with civilian registration NX 41963 and -64) for company use:

View attachment 670924

Yes, Magic Box Hobbies (Vancouver) had a small scale plastic model of that conversion last time I visited. The kit was molded by an Eastern European company.

Rob, surprisingly I can't find that conversion on Scalemates.

For my fellow modellers Dora Wings has produced the TP-63E in both 1/72 and 1/48 injected plastic. Their kits are pricey for their size (here in NZ at least) but from what I've seen they do very good work.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

There were two Bell P-63 conversions done (with civilian registration NX 41963 and -64) for company use:

View attachment 670924

Yes, Magic Box Hobbies (Vancouver) had a small scale plastic model of that conversion last time I visited. The kit was molded by an Eastern European company.

Rob, surprisingly I can't find that conversion on Scalemates.

For my fellow modellers Dora Wings has produced the TP-63E in both 1/72 and 1/48 injected plastic. Their kits are pricey for their size (here in NZ at least) but from what I've seen they do very good work.

AMG Releases First Trial Build Photos of Upcoming Two-Seat P-63 Kingcobra Model Kit

Arsenal Model Group (AMG) has released a new series of images showing the first trial build of their upcoming 1/48 twin-seat P-63 Kingcobra. The two-place Kingcobra was constructed by Bell for internal use. the machines were a modification of the P-63E-1 which saw radio equipment relocated into

aerodynamicmedia.com

 

[ZacYates]

@T. A. Gardner I have a feeling the AMG and Dora Wings kits are the same, but I'm not certain on that.

 

[Maveric]

There were two Bell P-63 conversions done (with civilian registration NX 41963 and -64) for company use:

View attachment 670924

Bell Model 53

 

[Scott Kenny]

I was under the impression that many of the P-51D 2-seaters used the bigger canopy from one of the lightweight prototypes. Oddly, the bigger canopy was more aerodynamic than the standard -D bubble.

 

[riggerrob]

Post WW2 two-seater conversions of P-51 are mostly based on most popular variant: P-51D which was only a single-seater in military service.

Cavalier conversions replace most of the military radios and the L-shaped rear fuel tank with a second seat, but they retained the original P-51D bubble canopy.

The rare TF-51 two-seater trainer - plus a few conforming conversions - got a distinctive enlarged canopy that is bulged to increase headroom for the rear-seater.

Yes, P-51H got a longer bubble canopy - to improve streamlining - but I don’t remember seeing any 2-seat conversions or rare P-51H.

 

[Dynoman]

MK T-IIC Hurricane trainer.

 

[Sabrejet]

Oddly, the bigger canopy was more aerodynamic[ally efficient] than the standard -D bubble.

All things that move in air are aerodynamic. The statement needs a qualifying term. In this case I assume it refers to efficiency.

 

[Dynoman]

Two seat Messerschmitt BF109 G12 Fighter/Trainer

 

[riggerrob]

All things that move in air are aerodynamic. The statement needs a qualifying term. In this case I assume it refers to efficiency.

That was short-hand for “less drag.”

 

[Dynoman]

Fairey Battleplane Two Seat Trainer

 

[Sabrejet]

Yes, P-51H got a longer bubble canopy - to improve streamlining - but I don’t remember seeing any 2-seat conversions or rare P-51H.

Quite a few P-51Hs were redesignated as TP-51H trainers, including 44-64175, 64181, 64189, 64206, 64212, 64218 and 64328. A few served long enough to become TF-51Hs. However the designation of fighters with the 'T' trainer prefix doesn't always indicate the fitting of a second seat (e.g. TF-86D).

The two-seat TP-51D/TF-51D conversion was done, IIRC, by TEMCO.

 

[Scott Kenny]

All things that move in air are aerodynamic. The statement needs a qualifying term. In this case I assume it refers to efficiency.

The bigger/longer -H bubble canopy caused less drag than the -D bubble canopy.

 

[Sabrejet]

The bigger/longer -H bubble canopy caused less drag than the -D bubble canopy.

I'm sure it did, but both were equally 'aerodynamic' when travelling at the same speed through air.

 

[ZacYates]

Quite a few P-51Hs were redesignated as TP-51H trainers, including 44-64175, 64181, 64189, 64206, 64212, 64218 and 64328. A few served long enough to become TF-51Hs. However the designation of fighters with the 'T' trainer prefix doesn't always indicate the fitting of a second seat (e.g. TF-86D).

How interesting. I imagine if they'd ever made a factory two-seater (Steven Coutches' N551H has a back seat) we'd have seen it by now...?

 

[Sabrejet]

Not a factory two-seater, but the TEMCO TF-51Ds weren't either, neither were many recon versions of fighter aircraft 'factory'. But for sure it raises the question of what exactly was a TP-51H. Good example is 44-64333, delivered 27 September 1945 straight to storage with 4128th AAF Base Unit at Kelly AFB. It was then converted/redesignated there as a TF-51H on 24 October 1949 (now as San Antonio Air Materiel Area) and allotted to Andrews AFB on 15 November.

 

[Sabrejet]

Further to the above, TP-51H/TF-51H was a trainer by dint of having all armament and gunsight removed. Maybe 80 or so converted this way.

 

[ZacYates]

Out of interest: does anyone know how many two-seat F4U/FG-1 Corsairs have been converted (not including the Vought demonstrator), and how many remain so configured?