Most successful naval SAM?

[Maury Markowitz]

One would imagine the SA-2 would lead any discussion of SAM kills in general, but a naval equivalent is not so immediately obvious.

It appears Sea Dart might hold that crown? Eight confirmed successes plus one friendly fire would appear to be the record. Is anything else close?

I know some of the US designs saw use in Vietnam, including Talos' famed long-range kill, but I don't believe these were commonplace. I'm not very familiar with the fSov uses.

 

[TomS]

If by "successful" you mean just "number of combat kills" then yes, probably Sea Dart thanks mainly to the Falklands. The various versions of Standard Missile have several successful engagements in the Persian Gulf (sadly including one airliner) back in the 1980s and a couple of less certain ones off Yemen and Libya more recently. But I think less than eight total. Sea Cat and Sea Wolf both had fewer than eight kills in the Falklands. And I don't know of any other naval SAMs with actual combat use at all.

 

[sferrin]

Lets not forget Standard as also had surface engagements, and is still in service, while Sea Dart is long gone.

 

[Kat Tsun]

If by "successful" you mean just "number of combat kills" then yes, probably Sea Dart thanks mainly to the Falklands. The various versions of Standard Missile have several successful lol l engagements in the Persian Gulf (sadly including one airliner) back in the 1980s and a couple of less certain ones off Yemen and Libya more recently. But I think less than eight total. Sea Cat and Sea Wolf both had fewer than eight kills in the Falklands. And I don't know of any other naval SAMs with actual combat use at all.

RIM-116 and ESSM have fired at cruise missiles several times.

e: I was mistaken, Mason fired SM-2s, not RAMs, in the third attack. So you can add that to the successful engagements I suppose.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

Verified details of Sea Dart combat record has yet to be published, but I’ve complied a pretty good record of what went on from a number of primary sources. The info on the web doesn’t tally with these sources . From the information I’ve collected, it’s seven confirmed kills total, 1 possibles, out of maybe 34 missiles fired.

As someone who worked on the Sea Dart, I (and others on the team) always felt the system was harshly reported by both its customer and manufacturer. It had loads more development potential which was lost through a lack of imagination from the MOD and support, princely funding.

 

[TomS]

If by "successful" you mean just "number of combat kills" then yes, probably Sea Dart thanks mainly to the Falklands. The various versions of Standard Missile have several successful lol l engagements in the Persian Gulf (sadly including one airliner) back in the 1980s and a couple of less certain ones off Yemen and Libya more recently. But I think less than eight total. Sea Cat and Sea Wolf both had fewer than eight kills in the Falklands. And I don't know of any other naval SAMs with actual combat use at all.

RIM-116 and ESSM have fired at cruise missiles several times.

e: I was mistaken, Mason fired SM-2s, not RAMs, in the third attack. So you can add that to the successful engagements I suppose.

No one is saying whether those were actual kills though, and ESSM was also apparently fired (which might imply SM-2 missed and the inner layer came into play).

 

[TomS]

Lets not forget Standard as also had surface engagements, and is still in service, while Sea Dart is long gone.

This is where I was headed in my comment too. By any metric other than simple kill counts, Standard is the clear winner. In service for more than 50 years (and no end in sight). Deployed on hundreds of ships in at least a dozen navies, with a total production of thousands of rounds (and again, no end in sight).

To be fair, though, I think the combat anti-surface engagements for Standard are pretty much just Joshan.

 

[NMaude]

Verified details of Sea Dart combat record has yet to be published, but I’ve complied a pretty good record of what went on from a number of primary sources. The info on the web doesn’t tally with these sources . From the information I’ve collected, it’s seven confirmed kills total, 1 possibles, out of maybe 34 missiles fired.

As someone who worked on the Sea Dart, I (and others on the team) always felt the system was harshly reported by both its customer and manufacturer. It had loads more development potential which was lost through a lack of imagination from the MOD and support, princely funding.

It's a pity the Land Dart never entered service.

 

[Hood]

For any meaningful analysis we'd need not only combat records but live-firing trials and exercise data to really compute a fair kill probability of any SAM.
The Soviets had a lot of naval SAMs and widely exported some like Osa-M around the world, not sure how many ever got fired in anger though. Same with Crotale and Apside, in fact the Sea Sparrow series is probably a contender for longevity and widespreadness.
Plus you need to consider the fire-control system, Standard's longevity has been raised but today's missile is far cry from the original Standard of 1966 and indeed its been through several iterations of fire-control technology since then.

 

[Dilandu]

And I don't know of any other naval SAMs with actual combat use at all.

Terrier and Talos were used in Vietnam, to at least some confirmed kills.

 

[NMaude]

Terrier and Talos were used in Vietnam

I already knew that Talos had been fired a handful of times in the Gulf of Tonkin but this is the first time I've heard of Terrier being fired there.

 

[sferrin]

Standard's longevity has been raised but today's missile is far cry from the original Standard of 1966 and indeed its been through several iterations of fire-control technology since then.

Or Tartar before it became Standard.

 

[pathology_doc]

Standard's longevity has been raised but today's missile is far cry from the original Standard of 1966 and indeed its been through several iterations of fire-control technology since then.

Compare: "I have replaced my axe handle and blade many times. It is still my axe, but is it the same axe?"

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

Terrier and Talos were used in Vietnam

I already knew that Talos had been fired a handful of times in the Gulf of Tonkin but this is the first time I've heard of Terrier being fired there.

Vietnam;-
Talos is credited with 4 kills but one is a bit ?;- the claim is that an aircraft was downed when it flew into debris from an another hit….. maybe but I’m always a little sceptical about such claims.

Terrier is credited with one kill

Tarter, zero that I can find, happy to be corrected.

I would love to how many missiles were fired to achieve the above.

 

[Dilandu]

Talos is credited with 4 kills but one is a bit ?;- the claim is that an aircraft was downed when it flew into debris from an another hit….. maybe but I’m always a little sceptical about such claims.

If I'm not mistaken (I need to check sources) Vietnamese sources confirm three planes lost in those time&space as American claims for Talos.

 

[NMaude]

Also don't forget that at least on to occasions the anti-radiation version of the Talos was used to successfully destroy NVA Fan Song radar installations (The fire-control radar for the SA-2 Guideline).

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

The Sea Darts other claim is the first combat kill against an anti ship missile, ok it was a Silkworm.

What’s less well known is that on the 30 May 82 HMS Exeter achieved a 909 track on an Exocet which was on a tangental crossing so only offered a very small engagement window, with the Exocet heading towards to HMS Andromeda (or a chaff cloud). A Sea Dart was fired, which commenced homing but the track was lost prior to engagement completion. One problem in 1982, was the Sea Dart’s proximity fuse would sense the surface of the water, so might prematurely detonate if used against a sea skimmer. For the Sea Darts surface to surface mode, the operator would disable the proximity fuse prior to launch, but a target ship is big, and slow. I’ve not been able to find out if in the engagement against the Exocet if the fuse was active or not but with a bit of luck and a few more seconds it may just have knocked it down. The Sea Dart mod3 of the early nineties featured an IR proximity fuse which eliminated this problem.

 

[NMaude]

One problem in 1982, was the Sea Dart’s proximity fuse would sense the surface of the water, so might prematurely detonate if used against a sea skimmer.

IIRC the Sea Dart back then also had trouble discriminating between two closely spaced targets causing the missile to miss both.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

Not heard that before, I haven’t come across any engagements where that was sighted as a problem and I would really appreciate a source;- it had a salvo firing issue whereby the second round almost always failed to guide. This was due to loss of tracking signal caused by the first round’s exhaust plume (aluminium within the solid propellant) leading to the software driving the launcher back to a vertical loading configuration, thus taking the second round outside its tracking cone just prior to ignition. This accounted for a large percentage of rounds fired that missed and was fixed by a software update in early June 82 (Ref the IwM tapped interview with Captain H Balfour). The main limitation of the early Type 42 was the 965 almost non existent overland target tracking performance as both HMS Glasgow and Coventry discovered to their cost.

 

[NMaude]

I haven’t come across any engagements where that was sighted as a problem and I would really appreciate a source

IIRC I saw it mentioned in a documentary about the sinking of HMS Coventry on the History Channel (Or was it the National Geographic Channel) by one of the survivors who IIRC had been one of the Sea Dart operators in its CIC.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Talos worked quite well in Vietnam. It shot down several aircraft at ranges exceeding 50 miles. Sea Dart in the Falklands war was in something of a different environment but successful at shorter ranges.

Standard has shot down several ASM's launched in against US ships in the Middle East now, a singular accomplishment--along with an airliner...

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

IIRC I saw it mentioned in a documentary about the sinking of HMS Coventry on the History Channel (Or was it the National Geographic Channel) by one of the survivors who IIRC had been one of the Sea Dart operators in its CIC.

From the HMS Coventry BoI page 13;-

https://www.hmscoventry.co.uk/docs/boi_hms_coventry.pdf

In summary;- HMS Coventry was sunk in the early evening on the 25 May but the engagement earlier in the day when she was further from land, is of interest. At about midday, an incoming raid consisting of two A4’s was detected by HMS Broadsword and correctly identified as as a pair. HMS Coventry picked up the incoming A4’s at over 45miles on its 992 radar, intermittently at first, and initially as one contact due to the tight formation. However it was known from HMS Broadsword’s that this was two aircraft and as they closed, both 909 track/illumination radar are reported to have acquired which means on separate targets. A salvo was fired which scored a hit on the lead aircraft at I understand (not in the BoI) at a range of about 15 miles. As for the second missile in the salvo, given Captain Hugh Balfour account, I suspect it failed to guide. These technical details are probably those redacted, but the report notes the second missile might have impacted a small inlet on the north of Pebble island. .

 

[TomS]

Standard has shot down several ASM's launched in against US ships in the Middle East now,

I've been trying to confirm this and it's pretty hard. We know SM has been used, in conjunction with ESSM, Nulka, and other countermeasures. Since the engagements have not been described in detail, it's hard to know what systems can actually take credit for the kills.

 

[Moose]

Standard has shot down several ASM's launched in against US ships in the Middle East now,

I've been trying to confirm this and it's pretty hard. We know SM has been used, in conjunction with ESSM, Nulka, and other countermeasures. Since the engagements have not been described in detail, it's hard to know what systems can actually take credit for the kills.

Part of the difficulty with confirming the kills is that the data is limited to one ship's sensors. It's not hard to see that a missile go down on SPY-1, but without good quality video of the intercept you're left to make educated guesses as to what actually happened.

 

[PMN1]

Standard's longevity has been raised but today's missile is far cry from the original Standard of 1966 and indeed its been through several iterations of fire-control technology since then.

Compare: "I have replaced my axe handle and blade many times. It is still my axe, but is it the same axe?"

Or Trigger's well maintained broom.........

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM

 

[sferrin]

Standard has shot down several ASM's launched in against US ships in the Middle East now,

I've been trying to confirm this and it's pretty hard. We know SM has been used, in conjunction with ESSM, Nulka, and other countermeasures. Since the engagements have not been described in detail, it's hard to know what systems can actually take credit for the kills.

When have they used ESSM in live engagements?

 

[TomS]

Standard has shot down several ASM's launched in against US ships in the Middle East now,

I've been trying to confirm this and it's pretty hard. We know SM has been used, in conjunction with ESSM, Nulka, and other countermeasures. Since the engagements have not been described in detail, it's hard to know what systems can actually take credit for the kills.

When have they used ESSM in live engagements?

Off Yemen in 2016, Mason fired two SM-2 and one ESSM in an engagement against two Huthi cruise missiles. It's really unclear what did in the ASCMs -- could be general unreliability, poor operator set-up, soft-kill countermeasures, or hard-kill interceptors. Or a combination of any/all of the above. No one is saying in public.

USS Mason Fired 3 Missiles to Defend From Yemen Cruise Missiles Attack

The crew of guided-missile destroyer USS Mason fired three missiles to defend themselves and another ship after being attacked on Sunday in the Red Sea

news.usni.org

Mason had a busy 2016, and probably the most real-world antiship missile defense experience on the planet.

 

[Roland55]

Has any Russian equipment operator used Ship carried SAMs during conflict? (india/other?)

 

[uk 75]

Missiles entered service in the late 50s with the USN and in the early 60s with Soviet Union, UK, France, Italy and the Netherlands.
The US were deployed in the Formosa/Taiwan straits before Vietnam. But I dont think any SAMs were fired at PLAF aircraft.
Use of Talos and Terrier off Vietnam should be well documented in the US.
The Indian Navy was involved in the 1965 and 1971 wars with Pakistan and probably other incidents between the two. No missile use recorded.
Israel developed the Barak to defend its small combatants. No details of any kills.
The Royal Navy used its Seadart, Seacat and Seaslug in the Falklands. Seadart was used in 1991 in the Gulf Not sure if there was anything for it to do in 2003.
France had Masurca and Tartar deployed from the 60s. Crotale from the 70s.
US naval use in the Persian Gulf and in the War on Terror.
Soviet then Russian ships have not taken part in any engagements as far as is known. They may have fired at NATO patrol aircraft during the Cold War.

 

[NMaude]

Missiles entered service in the late 50s with the USN

The RIM-2 Terrier entered service on June 15, 1956 on the USS Boston.

France had Masurca

Wasn't the Masurca basically a Tartar clone? It certainly looked like a Tartar.

 

[Dilandu]

Has any Russian equipment operator used Ship carried SAMs during conflict? (india/other?)

Against aerial targets - no, as far as I know.

 

[Dilandu]

Wasn't the Masurca basically a Tartar clone? It certainly looked like a Tartar.

No. It was close to early Terrier missiles, but not a clone; completely ingenious development, started in 1950s.

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

.
The Royal Navy used its Seadart, Seacat and Seaslug in the Falklands. Seadart was used in 1991 in the Gulf Not sure if there was anything for it to do in 2003.

Ah, forgetting the second highest scoring naval SAM to date with six kills*, the mighty Sea Wolf

I was once told “had it not been for just two lines of computer code it could have been double.” ;- I assume the cause of the infamous system trip outs but I have no validation if the that’s correct.

 

[Dilandu]

Soviet then Russian ships have not taken part in any engagements as far as is known. They may have fired at NATO patrol aircraft during the Cold War.

According to our official reports, Osa-M SAM were used by Black Sea Fleet small missile ships and small anti-submarine ships against Georgian military boats in 2008. Details are sketchy, though, and often contradictory.

 

[NMaude]

Osa-M SAM

You mean the SA-8 Gecko.

 

[pathology_doc]

Wasn't the Masurca basically a Tartar clone? It certainly looked like a Tartar.

IIRC the French got some US help when they updated it from a beam-rider to a SARH missile, but the weapon itself was always an example of convergent evolution. All the pics of Masurca I've ever seen show it looking like the later tail-control Terrier; the French seem to have gone for that solution immediately, rather than going through the initial wing-controlled BW-0 Proto-Terrier phase.

 

[TomS]

Osa-M SAM

You mean the SA-8 Gecko.

No, he means the system the West called SA-N-4. Remember that there are separate reporting designations for the naval version.

But now that the Russian designations are widely known, it seems reasonable (and polite) to use them.

 

[Dilandu]

You mean the SA-8 Gecko.

Being Russian, I'm more accustomed to our designation.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

.
The Royal Navy used its Seadart, Seacat and Seaslug in the Falklands. Seadart was used in 1991 in the Gulf Not sure if there was anything for it to do in 2003.

Ah, forgetting the second highest scoring naval SAM to date with six kills*, the mighty Sea Wolf

I was once told “had it not been for just two lines of computer code it could have been double.” ;- I assume the cause of the infamous system trip outs but I have no validation if the that’s correct.

This is what layering the defense does for you. Seadart, and to a lessor extent Seaslug, drove the Argentine aircraft to fly at low altitude to avoid these missiles putting them in the firing envelope for Seawolf. It didn't help the Argentines any that they lacked stand-off weapons other than a small number of Exocet to use against the RN.

 

[sferrin]

Missiles entered service in the late 50s with the USN

The RIM-2 Terrier entered service on June 15, 1956 on the USS Boston.

France had Masurca

Wasn't the Masurca basically a Tartar clone? It certainly looked like a Tartar.

More like Terrier.

Terrier:


Masurca:


Did not look up relative dimensions/weights.