Morane-Saulnier MS.406, Projects, Derivatives & Successors

Jemiba

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The MS.406 had the chin radiator and a retractable radiator under the wing.
Follow on models like the 408, 410 and 412 had just fixed chin radiators, but I
couldn't find any mentioning of the MS.420 and 440. But as this surely is war/pre-
war stuff, it's not exactly my field of interest and I can live with it .. ;D
But if the Morane-Saulnier designation system followed at least some kind of a rule,
then the MS.530 must have been a post-war project and then I'll give my right
arm to get to know it ! Which source ? Any drawings ??
But as it is described as a parasol training a/c (not really up to date in the post war
world) , I'm a little bit afraid, that it's just a typing error of 230 ...
 

Nick Sumner

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Jemiba, the Vanneau was based on a fighter design was it not? any idea what engine it would have used as a fighter?
 

Jemiba

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The Vanneau was based on the MS.406, as far as I know, with a Hispano
Suiza HS-12Y engine and the first variant, the MS.470 had an 12X engine.
THis engine seems to have been proposed for the later, unbuilt MS.473
again.
 

Jemiba

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From Jaques Moulin via the french aeroforum, I've got the side view and datasheet of
a Morane-Saulnier fighter type designated "MS.640". It has much in common with the
MS.540 (swiss designation FFA Althenhein D.3802), but radiator and landing gear are different,
the latter looks very much like that of the MS.470-479 Vanneau. The designation number could (?)
suggest a post-war type, but with a Hispano-Suiza 12Z it would have been a little bit underpowered
during the beginning jet age and it probably isn't wise to rely on the chronology of those designation.
Anybody, who can shed some more light on it ?
 

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hesham

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Great find my dear Jemiba,

it is very interesting to get info about MS projects and little known aircraft
such as MS.420 fighter and MS.440 night fighter.
 

airman

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ms.460 and ms.640 are very similar : could be ms.640 an advanced trainer variant ? ???
 

Jemiba

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Probably not, as it is said to have been powered by the Hispano Suiza 12Z, a
more powerful version of 12Y, envisaged for the 460. The 12Z appeared too late
to be used by aircraft for the french airforce during the war, but later versions
were still produced after 1945 and used, for example in the HA-1112. But that's
only a piece of circumstantial evidence, that the 640 could have been a post-war
design, maybe as an alternative to the 540/D.3802 for export ? That could (!) explain,
too, the quite odd designation, as in the 600s series, I only know civil light a/c still
yet. But again, the judge would say "Verdict : Not guilty due to lack of evidence"
and, well, I know, that in this field I'm endangered to give in to the temptation to believe
in something, just because I want to believe it ! ::)
 

Nick Sumner

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Although we only have a side elevation of the MS 640 to my eye the shape of the wing looks quite different from that of the MS 460. It more closely resembles the Vanneau IMHO.
 

Jemiba

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Exactly, and this suggestion seems (!) to be supported by the landing gear with its
pivoting main wheels. The overlay could (!) show, that the MS.640 actually was the fighter
version of the MS.470, or vice versa, maybe limiting the time of its birth to around 1943 (or
later) when the design of the 470 began.
And the top view looks similar to the Vanneau, too.
 

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toura

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Hi all
About the ms 420, I've found something I DON'T KNOW ?
look at
http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-un-projet-improbable-le-morane-saulnier-420-c1
bye
 

Jemiba

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Many thanks Paul,
for this type (an easter egg for Tophe ! ;) ) and for pointing to this blog !
And the MS.420 shows, that designation numbers aren't a reliable way, to
determine the time a design was drawn.
 

lark

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In the mean time, there's more info about the MS.640 project
and 540 on the site mentioned by Toura...
 

airman

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http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-un-projet-de-chasseur-morane-saulnier-le-ms-540-47862630.html

http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-un-dernier-projet-de-chasseur-morane-saulnier-le-ms-640-47858097.html

ops ! :)

i like know more about these projects !
 

airman

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the obscure projects Morane Saulnier MS 540 and 640

http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-un-dernier-projet-de-chasseur-morane-saulnier-le-ms-640-47858097.html

http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-un-projet-de-chasseur-morane-saulnier-le-ms-540-47862630.html
 

Jemiba

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Great material, thank you Justo !
The MS.540 still had the kink in the leading edge typical for the 406, although the
outer wings already looked like those of the Vanneau. Is an exchange of components
mentioned somewhere in the sources you've listed ?
 

toura

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Hi all
I've read a long time ago ( le Fana de l'aviation)
that the ms 408 c1 was a single seat ms 430 with
a bigger tail ???
Bye
 

Jemiba

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Well, could be possible: The MS.430 as a radial powered trainer, using components of
the MS.406, re-designed as a radial powered fighter, so probably further away from my
"MS.408" drawing, where I simply put a radial engine onto the MS.406.

But another question: What does the suffix "c1" actually stands for in a MS-designation ?
Could be just a version of a basic type, ok, but in a case like that of the MS.420, there not
even was a basic version.
 

toura

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Hi Jenz,
In French milirary designation "c1" want to say
C = chasseur, 1 = crew 1 pilot
another example
"b5"
B = bombardier, 5 = crew 5 persons
Bye
 

toura

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Re
You draw the engine of the MS 430-01
and the thick tail
in French :
Le mysterieux MS 430 monoplace modifié en MS 408 C 1
On note l'empennage vertical rehaussé et le haut pare brise
debordant de la verriere......
 

blackkite

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Hi! MS.450.
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_morane_saulnier_MS450.html
"The Morane-Saulnier M.S.450 was an improved version of the M.S.406 developed for a French fighter requirement of 1937 but that didn't enter production. It was developed in response to a C1 (single seat fighter) requirement issued by the Service Technique Aéronautique on 27 February 1937.
The M.S.450 used more up-to-date construction methods than the M.S.406. The earlier aircraft had a tubular metal framework, covered with fabric at the rear and Plymax (plywood bonded to aluminium) at the front. The M.S.450 had a dural monocoque fuselage, although retained the Plymax covering for the wings. It was powered by the 1,050hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y51 (also used on the M.S.412/ D-3801 produced in Switzerland). The M.S.450 was armed with one engine mounted 20mm cannon and two wing mounted machine guns. The M.S.450 was very similar in appearance to the M.S.406,
The M.S.450 lost out to the Dewoitine D.520. The D.520 was ordered into production a month before the first M.S.450 made its maiden flight on 14 April 1939. Work on the M.S.450 continued and a second prototype made its maiden flight in November 1939.
Work on the design continued in Switzerland, where a small number of more refined aircraft were produced as the Doflug D-3802 (M.S.540) , followed by one example of the post-war Doflug D-3803. "

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/ms450.html
https://arnor022.deviantart.com/gallery/56684148/Fighters-Line-2
https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/ww2planes/various/64069/view/doflug_d-3802/
https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/ww2planes/dornier/70882/view/doflug_d-3802a/
https://www.aviarmor.net/aww2/aircraft/switz/efw_d3802.htm
https://www.pinterest.jp/pin/246923992051558055/?lp=true
 

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blackkite

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I want to ask questions. What is M.S.460? What is D-3801?
 

Arjen

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Doflug D-3801 was a licence-built version of the MS 412 - 1050hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y51.
MS 460 was an entirely new design with a 1200hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y89/12Z - a fuel-injected, four valve per cylinder engine. An unfinished prototype was put on a barge to be transported South during the German advance in 1940, but apparently was dumped into the Briare canal.
Source: 'Morane-Saulnier - Ses Avions, ses Projets' by Henri Lacaze, Lela Presse ©2013. I bought my copy in January. A great read.
 

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Archibald

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ok, doing research for France Fights On, I'm trying to get a clearer view of the entire Morane - Swiss connection.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/france-fights-on.337031/page-3

There is a lot of good information in this thread, but it is a little all over the place.

MS-406 12Y31 860 h.p, first flight August 8, 1935. 1100 build.

MS-410 upgrade of build MS-406s with better wing and radiators, for the French Air Force.
MS-411 and MS-412
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_M.S.406#M.S.411,_M.S.412

MS-406H. 2 MS-406 flight tested in 1938 - 1939. 12Y31.

D-3800 Same aircraft, stock MS-406, with 12Y77, a 12Y31 build under licence by Saurer. 82 build until 1940.

D-3801 Improved aircraft, Saurer 12Y51 also known as YS-1, 1000 h.p. 207 build between 1939 and 1948.

MS-450 http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/morane_ms-450.php

MS-540
https://www.google.fr/search?q=MS-540+swiss&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAh_CYv4rZAhUKJ1AKHZirCJkQ_AUIECgB&biw=1366&bih=631
Thanks to Airman

airman said:
http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-un-projet-de-chasseur-morane-saulnier-le-ms-540-47862630.html
D-3802 Improved 3801, Saurer YS-2, 1230 h.p first flight september 1944, 11 build, 89 more cancelled in 1945.

D-3803 Improved 3802, Saurer YS-3, 1420 h.p 1 build

MS-640 http://aerophile.over-blog.com/article-un-dernier-projet-de-chasseur-morane-saulnier-le-ms-640-47858097.html

thanks to Arjen and Justo Miranda for the MS-460 drawings...

MS 460
was an entirely new design with a 1200hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y89/12Z - a fuel-injected, four valve per cylinder engine. An unfinished prototype was put on a barge to be transported South during the German advance in 1940, but apparently was dumped into the Briare canal.
Note that it is not related to the Swiss aircrafts: the engine is not the same.
Although Hispano Suiza probably helped Saurer: the YS-2 and YS-3 might be very well related to the 12Z, which was a brand new, 1300 h.p engine from 1939 that got a second chance in 1945 but was a total loss.

MS-435 : two seat MS-406

The M.S.406 airframe was also used in a number of other projects. The M.S.430 was a two-seat trainer built by inserting a "plug" in the central fuselage with an extra cockpit for the trainee pilot, and using the much less powerful 290.8 kW (390 hp) Salmson 9AG radial engine.[26] The M.S.435 was a more powerful version with the 410.1 kW (550 hp) Gnome-Rhône 9K engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_M.S.406#M.S.411,_M.S.412

MS-470: Vanneau
http://www.avionslegendaires.net/avion-militaire/morane-saulnier-ms-470-vanneau/

More info on this thread
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9685.15.html
 

Archibald

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Jemiba said:
From Jaques Moulin via the french aeroforum, I've got the side view and datasheet of
a Morane-Saulnier fighter type designated "MS.640". It has much in common with the
MS.540 (swiss designation FFA Althenhein D.3802), but radiator and landing gear are different,
the latter looks very much like that of the MS.470-479 Vanneau. The designation number could (?)
suggest a post-war type, but with a Hispano-Suiza 12Z it would have been a little bit underpowered
during the beginning jet age and it probably isn't wise to rely on the chronology of those designation.
Anybody, who can shed some more light on it ?
Morane was allowed to resume work by German occupation forces in 1943.

This year, they started two lines of development; both from the (failed) MS-450

First was the MS-540 that went to Switzerland and become the 3802, which flew in September 1944. Then there was that MS-640, that might be related to the D-3803, the ultimate Morane.

Second, from the MS-450 they developped the MS-470 Vanneau trainer that used a lot of elements from the cancelled fighter. The Vanneau flew as early as december 1944.

So the Vanneau trainer and the Swiss birds were developped in parallel, and note that their first flights were only three months apart.
I think it is a hardly a suprise an hybrid of the two aircrafts happened, since both were sons of the MS-450.

------

As said in the other thread (we should merge them) the MS-460 was an earlier development of the MS-406, unrelated to Switzerland in any way. It was yet another atempt at improving the MS-406, with the most powerful engine on hands - either the last of the 12Y, the 12Y89, or the brand new 12Z with 1300 h.p. That MS-406 was lost in June 1940 during the chaos of the german invasion.
 

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I've found another two projects developed from the Morane-Saulnier M.S.-406 fighter :

- M.S.-407 LP - M.S.-406 No. 14 rebuilt with interesting idea of carrying one parachutist in the fuselage section.
The airplane had fuel tanks removed to wings. In 1939 two machines were built and used for testing of pilot's parachute jumps
with high-speed flights.
- M.S.-409 C1 - Prototype with fixed radiator of M.S.-540 C1 under the engine.
 

Kuno

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"First was the MS-540 that went to Switzerland and become the 3802, which flew in September 1944. Then there was that MS-640, that might be related to the D-3803, the ultimate Morane."

Appologize for my uneducated questions...

A) Would somebody know, how the MS-540 came to Switzerland? Was it as a prototype, disassembled parts or only as drawings and calculations?

B) When did the 2transfer" of the MS-540 to Switzerland actually happen? I cannot imagine that this was done after the Germans had invaded France... or was it done via "Vichy France"?

C) Why would any further developement, in particular the D3803 still have an "MS"-designation... I assume that nobody/nothing from Morane-Saulnier was involved in this development - or am I entirely wrong?
 

Deltafan

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Kuno said:
"First was the MS-540 that went to Switzerland and become the 3802, which flew in September 1944. Then there was that MS-640, that might be related to the D-3803, the ultimate Morane."

Appologize for my uneducated questions...

A) Would somebody know, how the MS-540 came to Switzerland? Was it as a prototype, disassembled parts or only as drawings and calculations?

B) When did the 2transfer" of the MS-540 to Switzerland actually happen? I cannot imagine that this was done after the Germans had invaded France... or was it done via "Vichy France"?

C) Why would any further developement, in particular the D3803 still have an "MS"-designation... I assume that nobody/nothing from Morane-Saulnier was involved in this development - or am I entirely wrong?
According to "Morane-Saulnier, ses avions, ses projets", Henry Lacaze, Lela Presse, 2013 :

A + B ) No prototype, no disassembled parts, probably the complete drawings (nothing about calculations). Morane Personnel were present in Altenrhein to the beginning of 1943. D-3802 was a mix between MS 406, MS 540 project and other options. The choices were made by Dr Studer, chief engineer of Doflug.

C ) It seems that the Morane personnel were not involved in the D-3803. And, except for the engine, the D-3803 seems to be more an evolution of the D-3802, than a materialisation of the MS 640 project. The date of the MS 640's drawing is not known.
 

Archibald

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Thank you for the precisions. That Morane naming / numbering system is totally hopeless...
 
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