Monorails

[uk 75]

As the UK wrestles with the issue of whether to build the HS2 high speed rail link from London to the North I had to revisit the world of the late Gerry Anderson as drawn by the artist Graham Bleathman.
Like a lot of 60s ideas monorails looked cool but were expensive and impractical- how would you carry freight?

 

[edwest4]

This site may be helpful. http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/AboutUs.html

 

[robunos]

Your second picture provides the answer, conventional rail would still exist, and with some of the passenger traffic diverted on to monorails, there would be more capacity available for freight . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Incidentally, regarding the ongoing disaster that is HS2:

Knives out for HS2 as Lord Wolfson calls for it to be scrapped to protect public purse

Pressure on the country's finances calls into question whether HS2 is worth the investment

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[uk 75]

Incidentally, regarding the ongoing disaster that is HS2:

Knives out for HS2 as Lord Wolfson calls for it to be scrapped to protect public purse

Pressure on the country's finances calls into question whether HS2 is worth the investment

www.telegraph.co.uk

The problem for high speed rail travel in the UK is that the distances are too short. Saving some illusory two hours on a morning journey between London and Birmingham or Manchester assumes a world where even the fax machine does not exist much less the Internet.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Incidentally, regarding the ongoing disaster that is HS2:

Knives out for HS2 as Lord Wolfson calls for it to be scrapped to protect public purse

Pressure on the country's finances calls into question whether HS2 is worth the investment

www.telegraph.co.uk

The problem for high speed rail travel in the UK is that the distances are too short. Saving some illusory two hours on a morning journey between London and Birmingham or Manchester assumes a world where even the fax machine does not exist much less the Internet.

HS2s primary purpose is to segregate high speed and low-speed rail, this freeing up capacity on other lines. Provided people are still taking short-haul flights from one end of the UK to the other (and they are), then HS2 still has a purpose.

 

[uk 75]

Incidentally, regarding the ongoing disaster that is HS2:

Knives out for HS2 as Lord Wolfson calls for it to be scrapped to protect public purse

Pressure on the country's finances calls into question whether HS2 is worth the investment

www.telegraph.co.uk

The problem for high speed rail travel in the UK is that the distances are too short. Saving some illusory two hours on a morning journey between London and Birmingham or Manchester assumes a world where even the fax machine does not exist much less the Internet.

HS2s primary purpose is to segregate high speed and low-speed rail, this freeing up capacity on other lines. Provided people are still taking short-haul flights from one end of the UK to the other (and they are), then HS2 still has a purpose.

Railways are not my area but logic suggests that improved signaling and cab warning systems plus local track changes around Britain might be a better way of doing this.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

The problem for high speed rail travel in the UK is that the distances are too short. Saving some illusory two hours on a morning journey between London and Birmingham or Manchester assumes a world where even the fax machine does not exist much less the Internet.

Though faster commute times could combine two cities into wider economical metropolitan area, case in point the Japanese GTA and Keihanshin, connected with Tokaido Shinkansen and soon, Chuo Shinkansen.

Also, you say the distances are too short but that is not really the case, The distance between London to Manchester is right around the ballpark of other HSRs in the world like Taipei to Tainan, Seoul to Busan or Düs/Köln to Frankfurt. The HS2 Northern England leg absoluetly makes sense.

Though the question really is if it's worth the opportunity costs, not if the UK is suited for HSR at all.

The case against HS2 | Financial Times

Even in countries bigger than England, high-speed rail is often a vanity project that escapes public scrutiny

www.ft.com

I usually support highspeed rails but this gives me some food for thought. Surely, one would be able to improve ECML and WCML to accomodate higher speeds? Current travel times with Hitachi A-trains are not that slow either. Should wonder how much of the either Main Lines could have been improved for the money they are spending for HS2.

 

[robunos]

One of the main problems with the WCML ( that HS2 is supposed to overcome) is that between Rugby and Stafford there is only a single track in each direction, which has to carry all long distance, local, and freight traffic. There is a bypass between Rugby and Stafford, via Tamwoth and Rugeley, but this line misses out the entire West Midlands conurbation, an important destination.
This is (was) the main purpose of HS2; to take some of the load off the WCML, and thus improve the service . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[shedofdread]

These wise words were found amongst the pages of 'Viz'....

 

[Hood]

HS2 won't even get you to central London, just Acton - so all those suit-clad yuppies will need to wrestle with the Underground/Overground to get into/out of the suburbs.

HS2 now looks to be a two-stop service three times per hour: Old Oak Common to Birmingham Interchange (next door to Birmingham International) plus a branch line to Birmingham Curzon Street.
In theory that gives you links to WCML and the Great Western Railway/Great Western Main Line at the top and bottom ends respectively.

Birmingham is busy but is there really enough Brum-London specific travel to make a project of this cost feasible? Getting onto HS2 means all manner of local connections/other rail journeys just to get into the feeder hub at either end. And is that really any quicker than just jumping on a WCML service?

 

[Graham1973]

View: https://youtu.be/9IFh6wFTJiQ?si=vOvzBDCrC4d-TH6K

 

[robunos]

HS2 won't even get you to central London, just Acton - so all those suit-clad yuppies will need to wrestle with the Underground/Overground to get into/out of the suburbs.

HS2 now looks to be a two-stop service three times per hour: Old Oak Common to Birmingham Interchange (next door to Birmingham International) plus a branch line to Birmingham Curzon Street.
In theory that gives you links to WCML and the Great Western Railway/Great Western Main Line at the top and bottom ends respectively.

Birmingham is busy but is there really enough Brum-London specific travel to make a project of this cost feasible? Getting onto HS2 means all manner of local connections/other rail journeys just to get into the feeder hub at either end. And is that really any quicker than just jumping on a WCML service?

Well, i wouldn't know about the actual numbers, but up until the last time I travelled on that route, about 15 months ago, the fast trains were always at least 90% full, and there were enough passengers left to fill the slow trains as well. There were also enough passengers to fill the London Marylebone-Birmingham Moor Street services as well.
Regarding your second point, the plan is (was?) that once HS2 is up and running for the WCML express services to be withdrawn, and the capacity thus freed up used for additional freight traffic.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[publiusr]

Might monorails be better in Siberia to cover vast tracts of land?

Drop spear-like columns from above to pierce the permafrost in a row…saw off to size…and just build across the gunge without the hassle of laying rail?

That could come later to either side of the monorail so you could descend to work at the surface.

 

[martinbayer]

I just can't help it that the idea of monorails in Siberia reminds me of this: https://www.google.com/search?lr=&s...ate=ive&vld=cid:80d26ee4,vid:LQiOA7euaYA,st:0

 

[Michel Van]

The Wuppertaler Schwebebahn is unique system
It based on Geography of Wuppertaler city, inside 15 km long river valley
The City is so dense build, there was no space for classical Tram on Streets
Dig a Metros or Tunnels was not possible do high ground water and hard rock.
and do the unique city Geography they build this Suspension Railway over city.

There were several proposal for ALWEG monorail in Germany
One was the Frankfurt am Main in 1960s
In end they decide 1961 to build a Pre-Metro in Frankfurt (Pre-Metro is were street Tram drive underground)
Why ?
The cheaper ALWEG needed 18 km tracks build true the City and two large overground Station in City Center.
The expensive Pre-Metro needed only 12 km tunnels and put all station underground.
Also play a Importen role, the optional use of underground Stations as Shelter in case fo Nuclear War...

This german 1960 video show the proposals

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLiTvm1zPXI

 

[uk 75]

My fascination with monorails owes a lot to their regular appearance in Thunderbirds.
Another member here shows why

Gerry Anderson Monotrain - Shipbucket

 

[Michel Van]

The french SAFEGE Monorail

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO5Y0GspyBo

It was use in movie Fahrenheit 451
(see video on Youtube follow link)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3GPC7l6HTg

 

[GTX]

Hey, someone had to do it…

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM

 

[Scott Kenny]

One thing a passenger monorail does very well is separate your high speed rail lines from any grade crossings. And that's really the key to successful high speed rail: not letting idiots cross or walk along the rails.

 

[DWG]

Given the mentions of Thunderbirds and HS2, seems like we should have a reference to the UK's highspeed monorail project, the RTV31 Tracked Hovercraft*.

I always think she looks slightly sorry for herself, sitting off to the side as the ECML runs past into Peterborough station.

* That's hovercraft on a track, not hovercraft with tracks.

 

[southwestforests]

Given the mentions of Thunderbirds and HS2, seems like we should have a reference to the UK's highspeed monorail project, the RTV31 Tracked Hovercraft*.

Didn't know about that one. And the following bit from that article is a source of pondering,

The Tracked Hovercraft technology might have actually succeeded, had its early test track not been built on unstable reclaimed marshland. This softly subsiding substrate made precision engineering a straight and stable concrete test track incredibly difficult.

Was that by chance the only affordable land on which to build the test track?

 

[DWG]

Was that by chance the only affordable land on which to build the test track?

I hadn't looked up where Earith is (I'd been confusing it with Erith), but it turns out to be in Cambridgeshire, in fen country *headdesk*

I can't see any mention for why they ended up in the fens, my best guess is access to Cambridge, though the theory guy was at Imperial College in London.

While Tracked Hovercraft doesn't mention track problems, what it does say about the track sounds like they would have been entirely predictable:

The track was about 6 feet (1.8 m) off the ground, running along the earthworks between the Old Bedford River and the Counter Drain just to its north, between Earith and the Denver Sluice.

 

[publiusr]

* That's hovercraft on a track, not hovercraft with tracks.

The latter might not be such a bad idea..a hovercraft that intermittently puts a skid down to help turn.

A different take…perhaps best called a uni-rail:

The Gyro Monorail: How To Make Trains Better With A Gyroscope

Everyone who has ever handled a spinning gyroscope found themselves likely mesmerized by the way it absolutely maintains its orientation even when disturbed. Much of modern technology would be impo…

hackaday.com

 

[Yellow Palace]

One thing a passenger monorail does very well is separate your high speed rail lines from any grade crossings. And that's really the key to successful high speed rail: not letting idiots cross or walk along the rails.

That's been a solved problem since, oh, Robert Stevenson or so. It's considerably cheaper to put a fence either side of your railway line, and divert existing rights of way under or over it, than it is to put your entire railway line up in the air somewhere.

Might monorails be better in Siberia to cover vast tracts of land?

There was a fairly serious proposal to build monorails in northern British Columbia for resource extraction. This eventually turned into the Pacific Great Eastern, later BC Rail, lines to Dease Lake and Fort Nelson.

 

[Scott Kenny]

That's been a solved problem since, oh, Robert Stevenson or so. It's considerably cheaper to put a fence either side of your railway line, and divert existing rights of way under or over it, than it is to put your entire railway line up in the air somewhere.

Doesn't work in the US. You still get idiots trespassing and that usually results in the train running them over. It isn't pretty. Or survivable.

 

[Graham1973]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeYTtlXywUI


And a more recent ride on the Wuppertal suspension monorail.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPVSTQ2L230

 

[southwestforests]

The latter might not be such a bad idea..a hovercraft that intermittently puts a skid down to help turn.

And that is one component of why you don't see any hovercraft taking I-70 across Kansas in a 40mph, 64kph, crosswind.

 

[southwestforests]

That's been a solved problem since, oh, Robert Stevenson or so. It's considerably cheaper to put a fence either side of your railway line, and divert existing rights of way under or over it, than it is to put your entire railway line up in the air somewhere.

Doesn't work in the US. You still get idiots trespassing ...

US Americans will destroy fences so as to engage in criminal, and not exactly wise, trespass,

Vandalized fence lets people cross dangerous train tracks

{p}A fortified fence meant to keep people off the railroad tracks in Pacific has been vandalized, allowing pedestrians to cross at one of the deadliest sections. There is concern now that someone may soon get hurt or even killed.{/p}

komonews.com

The afternoon southbound Amtrak came racing by a section of track crossing the White River in the south King County town of Pacific on Thursday. Moments later, high school student David Reyes emerged, having just crossed the tracks. Railroad officials say that's dangerous.
"Well, I waited for the train," Reyes said. "I'm sorry. I don't know what to say."
He shouldn't have been able to do that with high-security fences on both sides of the tracks topped by razor wire. But someone has cut a hole in the fence.

Much ado about fencing: SLO city and Union Pacific Railroad officials ramp up the fight against illegal track crossing

Whoever claimed that there are no shortcuts in life never lived on Murray Street. The ongoing tug-of-war between Cal Poly students and the city of...

www.newtimesslo.com

The track-crossing route has been a popular one for students on their way to school, or to the 7-11, or to the shopping center across the street. Obstructions raised have sparked renewed opposition from the technical trespassers determined to get a burrito, 18-pack, or rolling papers via the most direct path. Pedestrians eager to get from Point A to Point B regardless of any barriers have taken to cutting holes and removing panels. Workers then repair the fences, and the cycle starts again.

The situation has left residents wondering what the point is of a fence that’s proven ineffective

God gives me the right to cross tracks wherever I want!!! (NO, quote below is NOT the Onion, this is the Los Angeles Times)

Residents fight plan to fence coastal railroad tracks in San Diego County

Transit district hopes to limit access to hazardous, high-traffic areas.

www.latimes.com

Many residents believe it’s their right to cross the railroad tracks, whether to get to the beach or simply to enjoy the view. Some of the most expensive homes in San Diego County are in Del Mar alongside the railroad tracks that hug the edge of the coast.

“I, as many surfers and beachgoers, access the beach via 11th Street in Del Mar,” said resident Camilla Rang, one of about 130 people who wrote letters to the transit district opposing the fence. “I do not want my access to be impeded by fencing on the bluff in Del Mar. As a resident of California, I have a constitutional right to access the beach.”

Rang and others said Del Mar residents were granted the right to cross the tracks by the Santa Fe Railroad deed in 1909, though the city incorporated only 60 years ago.

“We will never accept it,” Rang said in her letter. “We will fight to our last breath. We will scream and we will fight and we will win. The bluff and the beach is our backyard, has always been and will always be. It’s the train that should move, not us, and you know it.”

Wait, what? Canadians too, eh?

'It’s concerning': gaping holes made in chain link fence near train tracks

Gaping holes made in a chain link fence near the train tracks along South National Road have caught the attention of Ward 8 councillor Gary Kaschak.

windsor.ctvnews.ca

 

[Yellow Palace]

US Americans will destroy fences so as to engage in criminal, and not exactly wise, trespass,

You can build one hell of a fence for the cost of suspending an entire railway line ten metres in the air. In this part of the world, they tend to be 2.4-metre steel palisade fences, not cheap but not enormously expensive either. Providing safe crossing places is a necessary part of such a scheme, of course.

 

[southwestforests]

In this part of the world, they tend to be 2.4-metre steel palisade fences

I guarantee you that Americans will grab their pitchforks and torches to go storm city hall because that fence blocked their view.

 

[DWG]

That's been a solved problem since, oh, Robert Stevenson or so. It's considerably cheaper to put a fence either side of your railway line, and divert existing rights of way under or over it, than it is to put your entire railway line up in the air somewhere.

Agreed, but it only works if you actually do it. There's still a handful of at-grade crossings on the ECML if memory serves, never mind branchlines. We're slowly getting rid of them, but the impetus for a particular crossing is often a fatal or near-fatal accident.

 

[DWG]

You can build one hell of a fence for the cost of suspending an entire railway line ten metres in the air. In this part of the world, they tend to be 2.4-metre steel palisade fences, not cheap but not enormously expensive either. Providing safe crossing places is a necessary part of such a scheme, of course.

At that size are they not also noise abatement fences?

 

[robunos]

Given the mentions of Thunderbirds and HS2, seems like we should have a reference to the UK's highspeed monorail project, the RTV31 Tracked Hovercraft*.

I always think she looks slightly sorry for herself, sitting off to the side as the ECML runs past into Peterborough station.

* That's hovercraft on a track, not hovercraft with tracks.

Some pictures of the Tracked Hovercraft, at the Peterborough railway museum . . .

 

[southwestforests]

Some pictures of the Tracked Hovercraft, at the Peterborough railway museum . . .

Much appreciated. Sure beats satellite view on Google Maps. (which I do appreciate, and do find useful. don't get me wrong)

 

[Scott Kenny]

At that size are they not also noise abatement fences?

Not really. They're too acoustically reflective when they're all steel.

What would be effective is rubber-mixed concrete walls that aren't quite vertical faces on the inside.

 

[martinbayer]

I am struggling to comprehend what the employ of an air cushion that needs continuous power to maintain overpressure as compared to the use of passive wheels would offer as an advantage, considering that wheeled vehicles currently hold a speed record beyond the sound barrier.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I am struggling to comprehend what the employ of an air cushion that needs continuous power to maintain overpressure as compared to the use of passive wheels would offer as an advantage, considering that wheeled vehicles currently hold a speed record beyond the sound barrier.

I believe it was for smoother travel.

 

[DWG]

I am struggling to comprehend what the employ of an air cushion that needs continuous power to maintain overpressure as compared to the use of passive wheels would offer as an advantage, considering that wheeled vehicles currently hold a speed record beyond the sound barrier.

It's explained in the wiki article: above 140mph hovercraft had the energy advantage if they could avoid the hunting oscillation that affected train wheels at that speed, resulting in sideways contact between flange and rail* and a sharp increase in rolling resistance. But British Rail Research Division then managed to characterise hunting oscillation enough to suggest a solution was possible, removing that advantage of the hovertrain.

The timeline is more important to the practicality of the technology than I initially realised. All of the tracked hovercraft efforts were running just in advance of research into Linear Induction Motors, which were running a bit in advance of practical maglev, and when Tracked Hovercraft's engineering guru, Professor Eric Laithwaite, came up with a practical maglev system that could use a single LIM for both levitation and propulsion that removed whatever advantage tracked hovercraft still had.

The other point to consider is Tracked Hovercraft Limited was spun off from Christopher Cockerell's Hovercraft Development Limited, and if your only tool's a hammer (or a hovercraft) then every problem looks like a nail.

* I suspect it would be pretty deleterious to the rail on top of the efficiency issues. You can regrind conventional rails to have the correct angles on the running surface, but it's probably a bit more difficult if something's carving chunks off the sides.

Tracked Hovercraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hunting oscillation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Graham1973]

One final pair of Wuppertal videos, first featuring footage shot in 1902 on that era's version of 'high definition' film.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ud1aZFE0fU


The second is of the only monorail 'Royal Train' in the world, used by Kaiser Wilhem II when he opened the line.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hawOFa2AjU