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Mirage IV M: Dassault's strategic strike aircraft for the cancelled PA58 carrier

TinWing

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Long before the Mirage IVA solidified into the current twin ATAR airframe, the Mirage IV was a very "elastic" paper design study. It is common knowledge that the current land based Mirage IVA was originally planned as a far larger aircraft with J-75 turbojets. The proposed Mirage IVM naval variant is less well known.

The French originally planned on constructing a third, larger aircraft carrier after the Clemenceau and Foch. The project was named PA58, with PA being the abreviation for "Porte Avion" and 58 denoting the fiscal year. (Clemenceau and Foch were respectively PA54 and PA55.)

Fate intervened when the balistic missile made the carrier-based stategic strike mission obsolete. In any case, the 45,000 ton PA58 would have been a singleton unit and due to its size, the Mirage IVM could never have operated from smaller Clemenceau class.

Source: Porte Avions Francais by F. Dousset, p. 94. Paris, 1978
 

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overscan

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Re: Mirage IV M: Dassault's strategic strike aircraft for the cancelled PA58

My god, that's definitely a new one to me! Whatever next- carrier based TSR2?
 

Thorvic

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Re: Mirage IV M: Dassault's strategic strike aircraft for the cancelled PA58

overscan said:
My god, that's definitely a new one to me! Whatever next- carrier based TSR2?
Erm don't start that again !!!! ;D, you know Vickers revised the 571 design for ER206 to create a carrier based versionin the late 58. TSR-2 by 1963 was way too optimised for its RAF roles.

The PA58 Verdun class would have been an interesting design and much more capable than the earlier Foch class. Dassault also had the Mirage III design adapted for a Carrier version, but not sure how succesful that would have been on the French carriers.

G
 

elmayerle

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If memory serves me correctly, the Docavia 2-volume set on French Military Aircraft, 1945 - 1960, covers both the Mirage IIIM and Mirage IVM.

The French designs that interest me, esp. are the ones equivalent/similar to the Harrier and P.1154. Both Sud-Nord and Breguet had ones like that and Dassault looked at one before going with lift jets.
 

TinWing

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elmayerle said:
If memory serves me correctly, the Docavia 2-volume set on French Military Aircraft, 1945 - 1960, covers both the Mirage IIIM and Mirage IVM.
Bibliographic references are always appreciated.

I don't have any information on the naval Mirage III, and I don't have the specifications for the Mirage IVM.

elmayerle said:
The French designs that interest me, esp. are the ones equivalent/similar to the Harrier and P.1154. Both Sud-Nord and Breguet had ones like that and Dassault looked at one before going with lift jets.
Fortunately, there is a significant amount of information on the internet about unbuilt French V/STOL projects, especially the ones based on (what later became) the Harrier's Pegasus turbofan.

This topic deserved another thread, but in the meantime here is a link to a series of French, German and Italian .pdf histories of unbuilt V/STOL projects.

http://www.vstol.org/encyclopedia.htm

Sadly, "Vol 3: UK V/STOL Concepts in the Twentieth Century" has never been uploaded....and probably never will.

The link to the ultimate online unbuilt VSTOL resource is listed below:

http://www.aiaa.org/tc/vstol/unbuilt/index.htm

This page is Java configured. Modify your browser settings accordingly.
 

Antonio

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That two volumes from Docavia can only be described as treasures. It is a pity that it only cover until 1960.

Info About Chasseurs Navals Supersoniques:

Volume I. pg 285
In 1956 it was started a program to purchase a Mach 1,8 all weather interceptor and attack aircraft capable to be operated from Foch and Clemenceau. As this was roughly the same performance of Armée de l'Air "chasseur polyvalent" program, marine derivatives form it were offered:

Dundaral IV Marine
Mirage V (Mirage III naval derivative)
Breguet Br 1120 Sirocco (Br 1001 derivative)

The 4th contender, the Sud-Est X-114 was the only totally new naval design

At the end, a two aircraft type solution was choosen, the transonic Etendard IV M (Attack) and the supersonic F-8 Crusader (Interceptor)

Mirage V (first designation)

Year: 1957
Powerplant: SNECMA Super Atar 8500 Kg
Span: 9,40 m
Lenght: 15,75 m
Wing Surface: 45 m2
Empty weight: 6554 Kg
Max weight: 15400 Kg

Volume II. pg 111
Les Intercepteurs tous-temps embarqués type 1962

This program was started as a replacement for the Aquilon by 1960-61. After the cancellation of the Mystère IV M it was clear that light fighters were not capable to fulfill the envisaged performance. A high performance aircraft could also perform the nuclear attack and recon roles.
Two designs were offered:

SO 4060 M (a SO 4060 navalised) which resulted too big and was downsized as the SO 4062

Mirage IV M

Mirage IV Marine data:

Year: 1957
Powerplant: 2 x (SNECMA ATAR 9 at 6000 Kg)
Span: 11,75 m
Lenght: 19,35 m (16,30 m with wings folded)
Height: 5,30 m (5,00 m with fin tip folded)
Empty weight: 9585 Kg
Max TO weight: 16500 Kg
Max Speed: Mach 2
Ceiling: 20500 m
Time to reach 12000 m: 1 minute and 57 seconds.

The ambitious Gros Porte-Avions (PA58 Verdun) was too expensive for the French Navy and never materialised and this interceptors were too heavy for the Clemenceau and Foch so they had to be cancelled too.
 

TinWing

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pometablava said:
Dundaral IV Marine
Mirage V (Mirage III naval derivative)
Breguet Br 1120 Sirocco (Br 1001 derivative)

The 4th contender, the Sud-Est X-114 was the only totally new naval design
I'll start a thread on the Br 1120 Sirocco. This design didn't share very many visual similarities with the Br 1001 derivatives.

I am not familiar with any of the other designs.
 

Antonio

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I'll start a thread on the Br 1120 Sirocco. This design didn't share very many visual similarities with the Br 1001 derivatives.
You're right because the Br 1120 is the latest derivative and there was an evolutive process from the Br 1001.
But all the projects are related in a big family.
Cann't you see any similarities between the Br 1005 and Br 1120?. In my opinion, the Br 1120 is more streamlined and has different intakes but the wing layout, low for the 1005 and high for the 1120 is pretty the same...
 

TinWing

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I am familiar with the Br 1001, Br 1003 and Br 1100M. The Br 1005 is new to me.

I get the feeling that we really need to put together a "Br 1001 Derivative" thread.
 

Jemiba

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Re: Mirage IV M: Dassault's strategic strike aircraft for the cancelled PA58 car

Hello to everybody in this forum
It's really nice, to find people interested in french aviation, too. ( Thank you, Deino !)

"The French designs that interest me, esp. are the ones equivalent/similar to the Harrier and P.1154. Both Sud-Nord ..."

Regarding this theme, you should have a look at one of the next Le Fana issues, where
Alexis Rocher will publish an article about the Nord VSTOL projects, including the N.4210,
N.4300 and N.4400, besides, of course, the ducted fan types (N.500 and derivatives)
http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/threads/cutaways-cortes-esquem%C3%A1ticos-de-aviones.24700/page-9
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/old-threads/aircraft-identification-v-1737-81.html
 

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elmayerle

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Re: Mirage IV M: Dassault's strategic strike aircraft for the cancelled PA58 car

Jemiba said:
Hello to everybody in this forum
It's really nice, to find people interested in french aviation, too. ( Thank you, Deino !)

"The French designs that interest me, esp. are the ones equivalent/similar to the Harrier and P.1154. Both Sud-Nord ..."

Regarding this theme, you should have a look at one of the next Le Fana issues, where
Alexis Rocher will publish an article about the Nord VSTOL projects, including the N.4210,
N.4300 and N.4400, besides, of course, the ducted fan types (N.500 and derivatives)
When that issue comes out, I'd truly appreciate assistance in acquiring a copy since none of the bookstores here seem to carry it.

Thanks in advance,
Evan
 

Antonio

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When that issue comes out, I'd truly appreciate assistance in acquiring a copy since none of the bookstores here seem to carry it.

Thanks in advance,
Evan
I can scan my copy for you...but if you're interested in paper then I'll buy the mag for you. Just tell me which do you prefer.

Antonio
 

Archibald

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Mirage V (first designation)

Year: 1957
Powerplant: SNECMA Super Atar 8500 Kg
Span: 9,40 m
Lenght: 15,75 m
Wing Surface: 45 m2
Empty weight: 6554 Kg
Max weight: 15400 Kg

It was a kind of naval, french F-105 Thunderchief :)
I'm interested by the super Atar...
 

elmayerle

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pometablava said:
When that issue comes out, I'd truly appreciate assistance in acquiring a copy since none of the bookstores here seem to carry it.

Thanks in advance,
Evan
I can scan my copy for you...but if you're interested in paper then I'll buy the mag for you. Just tell me which do you prefer.

Antonio
Truly, a scan will do me quite nicely, thank you.

Evan
 

Vahe Demirjian

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Does the book French Secret Projects 2: Bombers, Patrol, and Assault Aircraft contain extra info about the navalized Dassault Mirage IV, considering that this volume covers prototype and unbuilt French assault, bomber, and patrol aircraft of the post-1945 period?
 

Deltafan

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Does the book French Secret Projects 2: Bombers, Patrol, and Assault Aircraft contain extra info about the navalized Dassault Mirage IV, considering that this volume covers prototype and unbuilt French assault, bomber, and patrol aircraft of the post-1945 period?
Hi,

only a few lines page 145, with not exactly the same data as in the Book of Cuny (maybe because Dec 1956 for Carbonel and 1957 for Cuny) :

Cuny :

Year: 1957
Powerplant: 2 x (SNECMA ATAR 9 at 6000 Kg)
Span: 11,75 m
Lenght: 19,35 m (16,30 m with wings folded) (I guess that Carbonel as a better explanation that Cuny for what was "folded")
Height: 5,30 m (5,00 m with fin tip folded)
Empty weight: 9585 Kg
Max TO weight: 16500 Kg
Max Speed: Mach 2
Ceiling: 20500 m
Time to reach 12000 m: 1 minute and 57 seconds.



Carbonel :

Year : Dec 1956
Powerplant : 2 x SNECMA ATAR 9 60kN
Span : 11,75 m
Length : 19,35 m (16,30 m with radar nose folded) (I guess, however, that there is a mistake with these 16,30 m. 18,30 m or 17,30 m seems more logical)
Gross wing area : 70 m²
Grossweight : 14 400 kg
ability to carry either :
-a single air to air missile (interception mission)
-a single air to air missile or unguided rocket pannier (fighter mission)
-a single 1000 kg bomb (bomber mission)

Edit : sorry, it's in French Secret Projects one. There is Nothing about the Mirage IV Marine in French Secret Projects 2 :oops:
 
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hesham

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Does the book French Secret Projects 2: Bombers, Patrol, and Assault Aircraft contain extra info about the navalized Dassault Mirage IV, considering that this volume covers prototype and unbuilt French assault, bomber, and patrol aircraft of the post-1945 period?
Hi Vahe,

I have this book,but Info about Mirage IV Marine is in volume one,page 145,and more info in the book; Les Avions
De Combat Francais 1944-1960,volume II,pages 112 & 113
 

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Grey Havoc

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The PA58 Verdun class would have been an interesting design and much more capable than the earlier Foch class. Dassault also had the Mirage III design adapted for a Carrier version, but not sure how succesful that would have been on the French carriers.
The carrier in question.
 

Archibald

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As said in the many threads after the Mirage III-01 froze into the Mirage III-A and Mirage III-C in 1956-57 the larger Mirage IV grew bigger and bigger in many steps, essentially
- F-105 size, single-big-engine (Mirage IVC, 1956)
- Phantom size, twin Atar (Mirage IVC, second variant, 1957-58)
- Vigilante size (Mirage IV-01, Mirage IV-A and the naval variant)
- B-58 size (Mirage IVB, 1959)

The Verdun followed, being a 45 000 tons enlarged Clemenceau able to handle a naval Mirage IV (smaller than a Vigilante, closer in size and weight from a Phantom, foldable wingtips, nose, tail).

France pretty much followed the Forrestal / Skywarrior / Vigilante model of a naval, strategic bomber. The concept however was buried by nuclear submarines and SLBMs. While the Vigilante found a second life as a strategic recon aircraft, and the Skywarior as ECM / tankers / support aircraft, France simply dropped both naval Mirage IV and Verdun.

At 45 000 tons the Verdun was very much a non-nuclear Charles de Gaulle - the reason being the limits of France shipyards.

The MASURCA was very much France own Terrier / Sea slug - a big, bulky, cumbersome long range SAM that took a helluva of internal space on the ships to carry it (at 8000 tons the French MASURCA Suffren frigates were really the smallest possible platforms. MASURCA really needed something as big as Colbert / Jeanne d'Arc (12 000 tons).
 

Maiwand1880

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"Verdun" as a name for PA58 never was an official decision. Only a rumour. As regards a comparaison with "Charles de Gaulle" based only on displacement, this fails to understand the major benefit in internal volume brought by nuclear propulsion and by an hull shape that is optimised for internal volume and not for power efficiency, as the hull shape for a conventionally powered ship has to be. Roughly one third more internal space, including bunkers. Plus the SATRAP platform stabilisation system, specific to "Charles de Gaulle", which is quite effective.
 
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