Minimum to recommend air defense network requirement to deal with a single 1,000 F-35 air to ground strike

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tequilashooter

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Sorry if the title has pure clickbait written all over it. So I would like to hear different ideas if they got more to add for the aircraft or more to add for the air defense and my air defense network will set in a flat terrain with no hills or cities to start this off. Roast or enlighten me lets begin.(any air defense or air force strategic commander will get a kick out of this)

I will use a network of short, medium and long range air defense. Short range to deal with glide bombs or PGMs, medium range air defenses to deal with hypersonic air to ground missiles, long range to deal with aircrafts and hypersonic missiles. Air defenses and aircrafts can be concealed in huge buildings to hide what they are going to use. The air force has only a slight edge of knowing what to use however some of Russia’s short, medium and long range missiles have different designed SAMs. While Russia's air defense has no clue as to what is internally placed on the F-35s or the options to put exterior placements of the weapons at the cost of a stealth profile.

An example the pantsir-s1 has the option to go quad packed with capabilities of dealing with PGMs so firing 48 missiles and there needs to be a good required amount to deal with 8,000 glide bombs(Commander does not know if they are going all out on glide bombs) But also those short range air defenses need long range air defense coverage because if they do not have an S-400 covering them, they can choose the unstealthily flight profile for the F-35 to launch 24,000 glide bombs. Air force commanders are aware to what extent Russia’s air defenses are capable of so that gives them room to deal with a strategic plan while the air defense commander has to have a air defense network that can engage the aircrafts and deal with every situation the weapons the F-35 will use. Now if all the F-35s were to go with a stealth profile of two anti-radiation missiles each Russia would need pantsir-SMs, buk-m3 and having all the long range air defenses use a variation of their versions of short and long range missiles. But this air defense network has to be prepared to deal with PGMs, air to ground missiles and the F-35s all in one go so a sufficiently big air defense network would be needed.

My Air Defense Network

Konteyner Radar

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Not much is known on the spatial resolution as in if there is one or two F-35s depending how close they are or how far apart they are. But the radar is good enough to know what HF RCS is on telling apart aircrafts, cruise missiles, UAVs etc. Meaning if they do know the HF RCS value of one F-35 they can calculate what two F-35s, three F-35s(in other words you cant full the OTH radar without the power to shapeshift the entire aircraft) can bring if they were all close together if the OTH radars spatial resolution was not good enough. But I have found different sources saying 5,000 and even 10,000 targets can be monitored.

They said that they were able to detect and identify 6 F-35s during the operation where the Iranian General was assassinated 1000s of kilometers away. Sources claim that the radar can track 5000 aerial targets simultaneously and identify fighter aircrafts, stealth aircrafts, passenger jets, helicopters cruise missiles and even UAVs. The JORN phase 6 according to the photonics research team in Australia concluded a more than 1000 times better signal quality improvement using a sapphire crystal when receiving RF waves. There is even a airborne project known as ROFAR which uses a photonic crystal in receiving RF waves as well and a ground radar project(supposedly photonic because of that frequency range) that works at 30mhz to 300ghz known as the Yakhroma radar.

There is a blind zone that is front of the OTH radar, So I would have my air defenses placed in it

Pantsir-SM/Buk-M3/Tor-M2

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Just like there will soon be 1000 F-35s, there will soon be a big order for the pantsir-sm systems and with what appears to be one meter sized missiles they are working with for the use of 4 instead one of one missile. There can be a 96 missiles one a pantsir-sm based on missiles or 48 based on the one using 30mm cannons. So we would need 84 equipped pantsir-sm missiles to deal with 8,000 glide bombs at a minimum. And because the F-35 will get AARGM-ER as a weapon with a stealth profile to fit two each I would need an additional 84 pantsir-sm missiles with the 24 missile tube layout. If 168 pantsir-sms are not available than we can go with 168 pantsir-s1s(to deal with PGMs and drones) but we would need 334 Buk-M3s to deal with 2000 AARGM-ERs which have a claim of 100% interception accuracy because the missiles are equipped with some powerful homing heads that work above X-band with a 0.1m2 target being tracked from 35kms with self autonomous homing. Also it deals with hypersonic targets like the pantsir-sm. The missile speed of the 9M317MA missile is 1,550m/s while sources of the pantsir-sm missile is at 2km/s-3km/s,

Tor-M2 can load 16 missiles but the system has its own project where there is a smaller missile design which might give it a quad packed design. Morfei air defense is currently out of the question right now since there were satellite images of two complexes in August 2018 but the project might have postponed due to smaller miniature missile designs being developed or the pantsir systems have taken its role, no one knows.

S-400

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At 100 nautical miles if using a low frequency aerial target it will be seen as a 5.5km tall, 1.6km wide and 200 meter depth target. F-35 is claimed as 1200mph max speed, it covers 20 kms per minute(can use the Su-57 as an example to), And since the Nebo-M is considered a circular scan that gives target updates every 5-10 seconds if its travelling at a speed of 1200 mph pulling a hard left or right 1.66 to 3.33kms. So we can add 3.33km for height and width of the box to 8.83kms by 4.93kms.

https://en.topwar.ru/168498-sistemy-pvo ... k-buk.html "The characteristics of the ARGSN used on the 9M317MA rocket make it possible to capture a target with an EPR of 0,3 m² at a distance of up to 35 km."

35(.0001 ÷ 0.3) ^.25 at a 4.73km distance a .0001m2 target can be tracked with a buk-M3’s missile autonomously by the missile itself. Angular Size Calculator if we assume that the radar beam angle 120 degrees with a 4.73km distance the size of the entire radar beam horizontal angle would be 16.73kms with 8.83kms covered and if the Elevation angle is the same or smaller the 4.93km height can be covered. However the only thing I did not take into account is

1. 9M96MD and 40N6 are not only new missiles with active homing capabilities like the Buk-M3 missile but bigger in size which I assume they will see something smaller and farther than 0.3m2 passed 35kms.

2. Considering the flight ceilings of the 9m96MD and 40N6 it seems that more than half their flights they will be able to fly above the max flight ceilings current aircrafts are capable of. Meaning these host radars will be pointing their radar beams on top of highly reflective topside surface of aircrafts which could be considerable in RCS size compared to pointing a radar beam at the front of an aircraft.

They before gave frontal estimates of the F-22 as .0001m2 marked the F-35 as .001 and than say later the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22, etc. I don't really give a sh%t about RCS but I am just pointing out how powerful the homing heads are on these interceptor missiles and that lower frequencies increase size of stealth more than tenfold but the host radars using active homing will make it for it to still target aircrafts. I would use 5 S-400 radar sets and than use 1000 48n6 missiles so I will use 250 S-400 launchers for the 250km range

Electronic Warfare Battle

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But of course I am not someone that wants to nerf 1000 F-35s, since I have heard that an external placement of can account for 24 Mald-Js we are going to also include 24,000 of these getting launched. These can also be launched 500 nautical miles away. But of course there is that reason why I included the OTH radar in the 1st place. Although we do not know the resolution cell capabilities of the new radars such as does it see a 1km by 1km or 10km by 10km target. The wing area, length, width of the aircraft all have a unique HF RCS signature, in fact it is like that if two or three aircrafts are in that same cell(where the OTH radar cant determine how many targets there are) the values on the amount of F-35s there are in a resolution cell can account for how many there are in there. example UAV is 2m2, cruise missile is 6m2, F-35 is 16.92m2 passenger plane is 40m2. If the OTH radar on that resolution cell gets HF RCS signatures of 33.84m2 and 50.76m2 that will tell the operators that 2 or 3 F-35s are in that resolution cell. But when the F-35s start launching decoys from 925kms the OTH radar operators will see the increase of HF RCS values in that resolution cell lets say the decoy is 1m2, every value added on the resolution cells of these targets will make those OTH radar operators notify the air defense units on what is going on.

For the MALD-J the pantsir, Tor-m2 and buk systems can all switch to using infrared systems. Mald-V can be included for jamming infrared but I heard its a bigger missile which might effect the amount carry options for the aircrafts. SPEAR-EW works at 8.5–40ghz so the frequencies the MALD-J jams at are questionable because the S-400 can still target aircrafts with the active homing capabilities of the missiles. The power of the radar and claims of jamming resistance is hard to determine.

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Since Mald-J is reliant on finding operating radars and jamming those radars they can suppress these decoy emitters or follow the direction where they are located instead. these decoy emitters claimed 90% success on 1st round than 80% on 2nd round ARM attacks.

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The F-35 Barracuda EW system jams at 2–20ghz according to the report I have read so it is within the capabilities to suppress fire control radars on air defense systems but EW suppression will make the aircraft get pinpointed by systems like Moskva-1.

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The Krasukha-4 is designed to suppress AWACS, LEO satellites and tactical aircrafts effecting their radar capabilities at a 300km range. Borisoglebsk-2 creates interference with the ground and aircraft radio communications. And the Zhitel EW system shuts out satellite communications equipment, navigation and cellular communications systems at a max range of 30kms. So any missile or decoy targeting air defenses might receive poor air to ground radar information on the ground targets they are going after. Pilots might loose communication from higher ups or with each other with what's going on with their ends. Any information update close to a 30km range(if they haven't been intercepted yet) any tactical information being exchanged to the missile or decoys becomes completely lost where they are now just reliant on their own passive, active or infrared homing and at that point become vulnerable to getting fooled with chaff, emitter or flare decoys, or just crash before reaching their targets, etc.

They will know an attack is coming 3000kms or less so changes could be done in battle formations since the last time they gave the targets whereabouts before EW systems start obscuring any information updates on targets last locations etc

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Also the following capabilities of the Pole-21 creates an area coverage for air defense systems to be protected from air to ground capabilities by blocking out satellites capabilities used to track the location of the air defense units.

“All satnav systems are based on the transmission of the simple signal by their satellite constellations. Therefore, a slightest deviation from the operating frequency even for a millisecond results in the deterioration of positioning accuracy. The signal is transmitted in a rather narrow waveband called reference frequency, expert Anton Lavrov says. Present-day jammers are designed to jam specifically the reference frequency, which is easy enough due to its being narrow and a strong enough noise jamming signal being used.

Mention should be made that all four positioning systems the Pole-21 is designed to jam use the frequencies that are close enough to one another within the 1176.45M-1575.42MHz frequency bracket. That a puny 20W transmitter is enough to jam the positioning signal within the 80-km radius speaks volumes of the ability of the sophisticated Russian system to provide impenetrable ECM coverage.

Things not included but can be included later in the future of air defense which I deem very important.

  1. I did not take account of the Morpheus which was explained earlier, S-350(which is suppose to be like the middle range middle man for air defenses) S-500 with OTH capabilities and dealing with more difficult targets. The S-400 to receive the new Nioby radar which exceeds the radar capabilities of the Nebo-M.
  2. Photonic radars. KRET made a claim of exposing aircrafts with different frequencies simultaneously, news not too long ago came up about a supposed ground photonic radar because of it operating in 30mhz to 300ghz called the Yakhroma radar. Photonic crystal with a 200 decibel signal or above needed to suppress it which is claimed impossible and more than likely the emergence of such radars will drastically change the battlefield especially anything airborne EW related. If equipped on drones I guess huge investments on laser, EMP and microwave weapon projects will be needed. signals received under background noise is more than 100 times better along with claims that a mobile photonic radar is as good as a several story building ground radar. And of course I did not include ground radars either.
  3. Combining the A-235 interceptor missiles to use a 1.5km EMP radius that was presented on the Tor system before or the Alabuga 3.5km EMP radius in which just using OTH radars with 1,000–2000km range interceptor missiles to target aircrafts is feasible because even though the resolution cell for OTH radars are big so are the EMPs that love to fry anything electronic related. I think such an idea is being explored but more in a classified kind of way. JORN has shown on signals for OTH radar can be improved 1000fold with a sapphire crystal from their photonics team.
  4. Probably a very long list of more EW systems such as the Divnomorye EW system that is to replace the mosvka-1, krasukha-2 and krasukha-4. etc
  5. The 50–1000 kilowatt KPVC laser, Peresvet laser, Rath laser system on some jeep. Talks of 10km EMP cannons, etc.
  6. Radar shadowing technique to be developed in seven years which can or cant be a breakthrough in stealth technology.
Sources

В ВС РФ рассказали о преимуществах загоризонтной РЛС "Контейнер" — Российская газета (rg.ru)

«Контейнер» всё увидит: НАТО не подобраться к границам России незамеченным — Новости политики, Новости России — EADaily

На Чукотке к 2030 году построят радиолокационную станцию "Яхрома" - Армия и ОПК - ТАСС (tass.ru)

Новые возможности нового «Панцирь-СМ»: ЗРК будет нести до 96 ракет, и гиперзвуковые в том числе » Сила в ПРАВДЕ: Актуальные международные новости (x-true.info)

В Хмеймиме замечен секретный зенитный комплекс 42С6 «Морфей» (pravda-tv.ru)

Air defense systems in Russia. SAM "Buk" (topwar.ru)

Throwing SPEARS - Armada International

Air Defence System Defensive Equipment (ausairpower.net)

ПОЛЕ-21Э (ntc-reb.ru)

Review of up-to-date Russian EW systems – New defence order. Strategy (dfnc.ru)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjSs5qcq5ruAhXFU80KHdP3C4YQFjAAegQIARAC&url=https://www.foi.se/rest-api/report/FOI-R--4625--SE&usg=AOvVaw1jTJIe1ejFOSqleQ_5Mies

Russian electronic warfare specialists test new method of jamming enemy aircraft - Military & Defense - TASS

Lightning Reflexes - Armada International

Pole-21 electronic countermeasures system to enter in service with Russian armed forces TASS 11310161 | October 2016 Global Defense Security news industry | Defense Security global news industry army 2016 | Archive News year (armyrecognition.com)
 
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tequilashooter

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The title has pure clickbait written all over it, as does the entire post. I'm not even sure where to start with this.
start anywhere as in I would like to hear your ideas, or will this thread get too heated based on different users? I will just take notes here rather than debate. Feel free to delete it or lock it if you like, I wont be offended if you did.
 
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overscan (PaulMM)

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This reads to me like 'cargo cult' analysis. It has the general appearance of serious analysis, cites lots of sources, has an overload of pictures. but is actually just a kiddie wish fullfillment scenario. There's no reasonable way to engage with it.

Panzerfeist1/GarryA, is that you?
 

tequilashooter

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This reads to me like 'cargo cult' analysis. It has the general appearance of serious analysis, cites lots of sources, has an overload of pictures. but is actually just a kiddie wish fullfillment scenario. There's no reasonable way to engage with it.

Panzerfeist1/GarryA, is that you?
Is it some user you don't like? Your making me feel like this thread offended you :( I just wanted peoples ideas on a how a modern air defense deals with modern aircrafts, I can also name a certain user here that matches what your saying as well in which you can take a lucky hint in the SU-57 RCS thread ;)

If you don't like it I am not stopping you from deleting the thread everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Perhaps your area of the US (I won't say where) breeds similar forum posters because the IP addresses are all geographically identical, and one IP is common to all three of the accounts mentioned. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Scenario is crazy. 1000 F-35s? That's World War III territory. What's the physical size of the area being covered by your air defence ? Russia? Luxembourg?

Are all 1000 f-35s heading for one target? 100 targets? Air Defences have to be physically spaced out. You can't just have enough launchers to have enough missiles to shoot down the 1000 attackers, unless you perfectly positioned every launcher in the exact correct location to engage the attackers. You need to dot them around everywhere. If the effective range is 5km, you need launchers no more than 10km apart. Even then, if the 1000 F-35s all attack one airfield, you'll run out of SAMs petty fast.

Its just not serious.
 

tequilashooter

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Perhaps your area of the US (I won't say where) breeds similar forum posters because the IP addresses are all geographically identical, and one IP is common to all three of the accounts mentioned. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Can IP addresses and MAC address be spoofed(nord vpn, opera)? I heard some forums recommended session cookie tracking because of it, your forum makes it an either/or option. Unless that is something your not willing to discuss?

Scenario is crazy. 1000 F-35s? That's World War III territory. What's the physical size of the area being covered by your air defence ? Russia? Luxembourg?
Just a flat terrain no specific country.

Are all 1000 f-35s heading for one target? 100 targets? Air Defences have to be physically spaced out. You can't just have enough launchers to have enough missiles to shoot down the 1000 attackers, unless you perfectly positioned every launcher in the exact correct location to engage the attackers. You need to dot them around everywhere. If the effective range is 5km, you need launchers no more than 10km apart. Even then, if the 1000 F-35s all attack one airfield, you'll run out of SAMs petty fast.
Ahh so it needs a better scenario based on placement, so after I come back to edit the thread to meet these questions? is there any other criticism you would like to discuss? launchers no more than 10kms apart? (see there are some rules like this I did not know about). Saw a interesting debate at f-16.net and the only reason I did not get involved with that is I do not know what my posting limit is after I move up a rank, and its too Pro-US boomer that my posts might cause contradictions to favoritism over there.
 
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overscan (PaulMM)

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Duplicate accounts are a problem when users are banned and come back and register with a new email. Aside from similarities in posts, IP addresses are one of the few ways to check if a new account might be a a duplicate of a previously banned account. VPNs, Tor etc generally give shared IPs with lots of users, and IPs all around the world, not a dozen IPs in one city. There are some instances where different users genuinely share IPs but it's reasonably rare.

Back to topic. I can't see much value in the entire premise even if you add more detail. But I'll bow out and see if anyone else has a different opinion.
 

tequilashooter

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Duplicate accounts are a problem when users are banned and come back and register with a new email. Aside from similarities in posts, IP addresses are one of the few ways to check if a new account might be a a duplicate of a previously banned account. VPNs, Tor etc generally give shared IPs with lots of users, and IPs all around the world, not a dozen IPs in one city. There are some instances where different users genuinely share IPs but it's reasonably rare.

Back to topic. I can't see much value in the entire premise even if you add more detail. But I'll bow out and see if anyone else has a different opinion.
I think I will just stop doing thread scenarios like this(my lack of maturity and seriousness on this post is probably the reason for it) and just stick with posting on threads that already exist here. Thanks.
 

Gobloxx

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Duplicate accounts are a problem when users are banned and come back and register with a new email. Aside from similarities in posts, IP addresses are one of the few ways to check if a new account might be a a duplicate of a previously banned account. VPNs, Tor etc generally give shared IPs with lots of users, and IPs all around the world, not a dozen IPs in one city. There are some instances where different users genuinely share IPs but it's reasonably rare.

Back to topic. I can't see much value in the entire premise even if you add more detail. But I'll bow out and see if anyone else has a different opinion.
I think I will just stop doing thread scenarios like this(my lack of maturity and seriousness on this post is probably the reason for it) and just stick with posting on threads that already exist here. Thanks.
First I have to know are you a military veteran and actually got to see how things really work? Or are you a civilian going off easy public info without any real grasp? I really thought I knew anything there was to know about the various weapon systems of the world. Then I spent nearly 7 years either on deployment poking various hornets nests or preparing to deploy. Some of the more seasoned folks liked being around new folks seeing things for the first time because they enjoyed the blown mind looks on peoples faces.

Something to keep in mind is a lot of the members here are credible authors and know all that a civilian could ever dream to know.
 

Ronny

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First I have to know are you a military veteran and actually got to see how things really work? Or are you a civilian going off easy public info without any real grasp? I really thought I knew anything there was to know about the various weapon systems of the world. Then I spent nearly 7 years either on deployment poking various hornets nests or preparing to deploy. Some of the more seasoned folks liked being around new folks seeing things for the first time because they enjoyed the blown mind looks on peoples faces.

Something to keep in mind is a lot of the members here are credible authors and know all that a civilian could ever dream to know.
he is a civilian going off generic newspaper information.
 

tequilashooter

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First I have to know are you a military veteran and actually got to see how things really work? Or are you a civilian going off easy public info without any real grasp? I really thought I knew anything there was to know about the various weapon systems of the world. Then I spent nearly 7 years either on deployment poking various hornets nests or preparing to deploy. Some of the more seasoned folks liked being around new folks seeing things for the first time because they enjoyed the blown mind looks on peoples faces.

Something to keep in mind is a lot of the members here are credible authors and know all that a civilian could ever dream to know

Going off info CEOs and military figure heads announce. Thats it.

he is a civilian going off generic newspaper information.

Sorry that Russia did not make another agreement with Vietnam before the Chinese invaded.:(
 

Gobloxx

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Alright then, I know it can sound "fun" to game this kind of stuff. But lacking either military experience or being old enough to know people long enough to gain trust and learn about things you're missing several large pieces to this puzzle. And even if you were able to get them all you have to have the ability to factor in that asshole Murphy and all his crazy laws and those pesky golden BB's.

You'll save yourself a lot of stress and arguments that go nowhere by walking away from this kind of stuff. Kinda like when we were all little kids and we started out growing certain toys and we moved on from them.
 

tequilashooter

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Alright then, I know it can sound "fun" to game this kind of stuff. But lacking either military experience or being old enough to know people long enough to gain trust and learn about things you're missing several large pieces to this puzzle. And even if you were able to get them all you have to have the ability to factor in that asshole Murphy and all his crazy laws and those pesky golden BB's.

You'll save yourself a lot of stress and arguments that go nowhere by walking away from this kind of stuff. Kinda like when we were all little kids and we started out growing certain toys and we moved on from them.
Topic was dead as far as January 14, if you feel like their is more information to add that you think is missing go on ahead. ;)
 
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