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MiG's from Kirtland AFB

Nagumo

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Any information about this aggresor squadron from Kirtland AFB? Succesor Red Eagles?

aircrafts:
An-2, s/n ?, brought from Poland AF ?
Mi-2, s/n ?, brought from Poland AF ?
SBLim-1 „red 038“, s/n 1A 06-038, brought from Poland AF (1988)
Lim-5 „red 010“, s/n 1C 10-10, brought from Poland AF (1988)
Lim-5 „red 303“, s/n 1C 13-03, brought from Poland AF (1988)
Lim-5 „red 406“, s/n 1C 04-06, brought from Poland AF (1988)
Lim-5R „red 905“, s/n 1C 19-05, brought from Poland AF (1988)
Lim-6M „red 511“, s/n 1D 05-11, brought from Poland AF (1988)
Lim-6MR „red 634“, s/n 1D 06-34, brought from Poland AF (1988)
 

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Dynoman

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These aircraft were obtained by the Combat Core Certification Professionals out of Reno from Poland to serve a contract with the Defense Test and Evaluation Support Agency for a 1988 DoD activity known as the Capability Improvement Program. The aircraft were flown during a three week exercise over White Sands in an exercise known as the Mobile Integrated Threat Test exercise to evaluate systems in a 'mass threat' environment. These aircraft, used in conjunction with other Soviet ground based systems, provided the framework for the evaluation. The aircraft were then placed in to storage in 1990 at Kirkland AFB and later some of them were diverted to museums.
 

Dynoman

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The activity was created to demonstrate the concept of an integrated Soviet air defense network, and not a "road show" that the "Mobile Integrated Threat Test" might imply, such as with the Aggressors. The idea was to have a DoD system that could be deployed to test US aircraft and other equipment, with the DTESA acting as the threat force. The New Mexico Air National Guard would use their A-7's to test certain US sensors while the MiGs were flying various missions, including CAS. The "Soviet system" was not the latest equipment used by the Soviets at the time, but a good representation of Warsaw Pact equipment. The program was short run from September 1988 to April 1990. The aircraft initially were placed in to storage at Davis-Monthan, AZ and then in 1992 they were disposed of, some going to museums and others remaining at AMARC.
Included in the MITT but not listed is: MiG-21, AN-2, a Chinese early warning radar station, and 20 types of communications equipment from portable radios to a communication station. DTESA's access to Soviet manuals and their knowledge of Soviet tactics allowed them to deploy the equipment, and operate them reliably, in order to replicate third world Warsaw Pact countries defenses.
 

Nagumo

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Thanks. interesting. Had MiG's from Kirtland AFB any "YF-11x" designation?
 

Nagumo

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Red Eagles used only MiGs-17F, MiGs-17PF (Lim-5P), MiGs-21F-13 (ex Indonesian AF), MiGs-21MF (ex Egyptian AF), MiGs-23MS (ex Egyptian AF), MiGs-23BN (ex Egyptian AF) and Chengdu F-7B (buy in 1987 from manufacrurer).

Red Eagles used only four MiGs-17 only by early 80. First two Red Eagles MiGs-17 were: ex Syrian MiG-17F (white 002/Have Ferry) and ex Indonesian AF Lim-5P. MiG-17F (white 002) was lost in accident in 1979.

and source next two Red Eagles MiGs-17 ??
 

Nagumo

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Red Eagles inventory:

late 1979 - 1 x MiG-17F, 1 x Lim-5P (MiG-17PF), 6 x MiG-21F-13
late 1981 - 3 x Mig-17 (2 x MiG-17F + 1 x Lim-5P ?), 6 x MiG-21F-13, 1 MiG-23BN
late 1982 - 6 x MiG-21F-13, 2 x MiG-21MF, 3 x MiG-23 (1 x MiG-23BN + 2 x MiG-23MS ?)
late 1983 - 6 x MiG-21F-13, 3 x MiG-21MF, 2 x MiG-23BN, 4 x MiG-23MS
late 1984 - 15 x MiG-21F-13/MF, 4 x MiG-23BN/MS
late 1985 - 17 x MiG-21F-13/MF, 10 x MiG-23BN/MS
late 1986 - 14 x MiG-21F-13/MF, 10 x MiG-23BN/MS
in summer 1987 all MiGs-21F-13 were retiered and replaced by Chengdu J-7B
late 1987 - 14 x MiG-21, 10 x MiG-23BN/MS
4.4. 1988 - 14 x MiG-21, 9 x MiG-23BN/MS
 

Nagumo

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"Included in the MITT but not listed is: MiG-21, AN-2, ..." Second An-2? Which variant of MiG-21? Any photo?
 

Dynoman

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Here's a photo of the An-2, however I don't know which variant of the MiG-21 which was participating. Sorry, not a second An-2, but the same one. The An-2 is visible in the first photo posted on the thread. Remember this is an exercise to pit US combat equipment, of all kinds, against an 'integrated' Soviet threat for operational evaluation of US equipment, both on the ground and in the air. Approximately $160 million was allocated to the exercise for two years to evaluate US equipment while testing the feasibility of large scale threat exercises with real threat assets. Lim-5 Red 010 can be found at AMARC.
 

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Nagumo

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MITT MiG-21 is also from Poland? It based also in Kirtland? Had MITT program any cover defignation, like Constant Peg?
 

Dynoman

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As far as I know the program name was not classified and openly reported in various government publications (e.g. GAO reports, Army Times, etc), and did not have a cover name. The US government worked with Combat Core Certification Professionals (CCCP) based in Ft Lauderdale, FL (possibly a front company) to obtain MiGs from the Chinese and from Poland, supplying the MITT program and others. Which country the MiG-21 came from, I don't know.
 

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Nagumo

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F-7B for Red Eagles were bought from Chengdu also via Combat Core Certification Professionals? What another aircrafts were bought via Combat Core Certification Professionals?
 

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Terry Anderson, who was named as president of CCCP, had four classified contracts with the US government, according to the Broward Times. How that would be divided up between programs (i.e. Red Eagles, MITT, others) I don't know.
 

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MiG-19 flown by the 457th Technical Evaluation Squadron at Nellis. Now at the National USAF Museum at Dayton, OH. This aircraft was obtained from Pakistan in 1969 and flown under Have Drill from what I understand.
 

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Nagumo

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Have Drill? Under this program were tested ex-Syrian AF MiGs-17F obtained from Izrael.
 

Dynoman

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Yes sorry, Have Drill and Have Ferry are the exploitation of the MiG-17 and Have Boat the MiG-19.
 

Nagumo

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Have Boat was the exploitation of the PLAAF's Shenyang JZ-6 (red 3171) in July 1977 in Thaiwan. MiG-19 from National USAF Museum must be from some other program.
 

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Dynoman

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According to Chuck Stewart's book "Aggressor Aircraft," this MiG-21 was used by DTESA.


"One of DTESA's reserve MiG-21F Fishbeds, currently in storage at Al Reddick's 'CIA Air' in Reno Nevada. At least two other ex-Polish Air Force MiG-21s are hangared at DTESA's facility at Kirtland AFB, New Mexico." pg 125
 

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Dynoman

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I was reading the bio of Tom Morgenfeld, of Lockheed and the VX-4's MiG exploitation program. In it Morgenfeld flew in HAVE IDEA, HAVE PAD, and HAVE UP. During these flights he flew MiG-17, MiG-21, MiG-23, Su-22 and 7 other types. I am curious what the other seven were. Any ideas on HAVE UP?
 

Nagumo

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Have Boat - exploitation of the PLAAF's Shenyang JZ-6 (red 3171) in July 1977 in Thaiwan
Have Boxer - exploitation of the ex-Egyptian AF MiG-23BN/YF-113B (1978)
Have Coat - exploitation of the ex-Egyptian AF MiG-21MF/YF-110D (1980)
Have Doughnut - exploitation of the ex-Indonesian (?) AF MiG-21F-13/YF-110B (23. January 1968 - 8. April 1968)
Have Drill - exploitation of the ex-Syrian AF Lim-5 (MiG-17F)/YF-113A (27. January - 17. Ferbuary 1969)
Have Ferry - exploitation of the ex-Syrian AF MiG-17F/YF-114C (12. March 1969 - 20. April 1969)
Have Pad - exploitation of the ex-Egyptian AF MiG-23MS/YF-113E (summer 1977 - summer 1978)
Have Privilege - exploitation of the Shenyang F-5/YF-113C borrowed from Cambodian AF at Phu Cat AFB (November 1970)
Have Up - exploitation of the ex-Egyptian AF Su-20 (summer 1977)

Have Lighter - ?
Have Lighter modified - ?
Have Fireman - ?
 

quellish

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Dynoman said:
I was reading the bio of Tom Morgenfeld, of Lockheed and the VX-4's MiG exploitation program. In it Morgenfeld flew in HAVE IDEA, HAVE PAD, and HAVE UP. During these flights he flew MiG-17, MiG-21, MiG-23, Su-22 and 7 other types. I am curious what the other seven were. Any ideas on HAVE UP?


IIRC, he was also a part of CONSTANT PEG.
 

seruriermarshal

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USAF Mig-29 from Moldova
 

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seruriermarshal

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Photos form USAF RedEagle
 

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seruriermarshal

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More photos from Redeagle
 

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seruriermarshal

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More photos

;D
 

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seruriermarshal

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USAF SU-27 from groom
 

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Stargazer2006

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Nagumo said:
Have Boat - exploitation of the PLAAF's Shenyang JZ-6 (red 3171) in July 1977 in Thaiwan
Have Boxer - exploitation of the ex-Egyptian AF MiG-23BN/YF-113B (1978)
Have Coat - exploitation of the ex-Egyptian AF MiG-21MF/YF-110D (1980)
Have Doughnut - exploitation of the ex-Indonesian (?) AF MiG-21F-13/YF-110B (23. January 1968 - 8. April 1968)
Have Drill - exploitation of the ex-Syrian AF Lim-5 (MiG-17F)/YF-113A (27. January - 17. Ferbuary 1969)
Have Ferry - exploitation of the ex-Syrian AF MiG-17F/YF-114C (12. March 1969 - 20. April 1969)
Have Pad - exploitation of the ex-Egyptian AF MiG-23MS/YF-113E (summer 1977 - summer 1978)
Have Privilege - exploitation of the Shenyang F-5/YF-113C borrowed from Cambodian AF at Phu Cat AFB (November 1970)
Have Up - exploitation of the ex-Egyptian AF Su-20 (summer 1977)

Have Lighter - ?
Have Lighter modified - ?
Have Fireman - ?

Thanks a lot for this, Nagumo.

Just to make sure there is no confusion here, you are talking of Taiwan for 'Have Boat', not Thailand, right? These are two different countries.
 

Nagumo

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Taiwan is correct

From Red Eagles, Steve Davis: "Have Boat - Analysis of a Shenyang F-6 (Chien 6-1 / MiG-19S Farmer D) in Taiwan in july 1977

From MiG-19, Aerofax, Yefim Gordon: "There is six cases of PLAAF J-6 pilots defecting, five of them to Taiwan or South Korea. The first of these was on 7. July 1977 when 41-old Lt Col Fan Yuan-yen, a squadron leader od the 1st Fighter Regiment based at Sinkiang AB, defected to Taiwan in a JZ-6 reconnaissance aircraft serialled "3171 Red", landing at Tainan AB.
 

Nagumo

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from March 1970 to January 1971 USAF used 3+ MiGs-17F (black 1024, 1721 and ?1084) borrowed from Cambodian AF for pilot training. They based at Phu Cat AB in Vietnam. In January 1971 they are destroied by Vietcong attack.
 

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Nagumo

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Any info about exploitation ex-East Germany aircrafts in USA? In early 90's Luftwaffe sold USA 12 MiG-23ML, 2 MiG-23BN, 2 Su-22M4 and 1 MiG-29.
 

Dynoman

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I have HAVE LIGHTER as a 1984 MiG-23/Jaybird Radar Test.
 

Dynoman

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Others I have are:
HAVE BAIT Exploitation operations in 1968 of crashed Czech MiG-17 in Germany.
HAVE PRIVELAGE Up to five test flights of J-5 in Cambodia November 1970
HAVE GLIB The tactical use and exploitation of Soviet radar equipment in November 1970
HAVE DRY Flight tests of a MiG-21 against F-15A in August 1973
HAVE GARDEN Test of MiG-21 blade signatures exploitation in 1974
HAVE FOAM Su-22 component tests, nav and bombing system (from crashed Su-22) in 1975
HAVE TRACK a Red Eagle training program involving Somalian pilots who were armed with MiG-21s.
HAVE ZINC the ground test of a KM-1M ejection seat for pilot confidence and reliability tests.
HAVE NOSE 1991 MiG-29 recovery operation. 3 Fulcrums recovered (in various states of damage) from Jalibah AB.
 

Dynoman

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"Any info about exploitation ex-East Germany aircrafts in USA? In early 90's Luftwaffe sold USA 12 MiG-23ML, 2 MiG-23BN, 2 Su-22M4 and 1 MiG-29."

In 2003 the US Air Force Museum received an Su-22M4 from the USAF. This was acquired from the Luftwaffe and may be one of the aircraft obtained in the 1990's. The aircraft is not on display, but in storage. I don't know if this specific aircraft was exploited or not. Does anyone have more detailed info on the museum aircraft.
 

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Nagumo

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USAF exploited Su-22M4 (back 25+22 / c/n 26409) and Su-22M4 (back 25+33 / c/n 31203). 25+33 was sent do USA 2. September 1993 and 25+33 27. March 1993
 

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