Messerschmitt Bf/Me 210/410 Projects, Prototypes & Derivatives

hesham

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Hi,


from Flugzeug CLASSIC 3/2008,here is a small info about Messerschmitt P.1060 which led to develop
Bf.110 and early drawing to Me.210.
 

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Jemiba

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The P.1060 didn't lead to te Bf 110, but was the project number for its intended successor,
the Me 210. ;)
 

hesham

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Jemiba said:
The P.1060 didn't lead to te Bf 110, but was the project number for its intended successor,
the Me 210. ;)

Thank you my dear Jemiba.
 

blackkite

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Me310 high altitude fighter/ bomber
A single aircraft was built by converting a Me 210. It had a pressurised cockpit and was powered by two 1,380 kW (1,850 hp) Daimler-Benz DB 603A inline engines.
The Me 310 first flew on 11 September 1943, but the project was cancelled later the same year, as it showed hardly any aerodynamic improvement over the Me 210. A subsequent prototype, the Me 410 showed sufficient improvement in its aerodynamics to be put into production.
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/me310.html
"At the beginning of summer of 1942 of the designer Messershmitta from Augsburg started development at once two projects of the hunters, capable to replace loser Me.210. Both projects got support of the ministry of aircraft and designation of Me.310 and Me.410. They were close on a design, and for their production it was possible to use the most part of equipment of the predecessor. Though both planes were similar, the first intended for actions first of all at big heights and respectively received a wing of bigger scope without automatic predkrylok and germokabinu.
As a prototype of Me.310 remade Me.210A-1 (#179 VN+AQ), equipped with a new tail part on a sample "as Me.210-V17 and a wing bigger on 0,65 m of scope without predkrylok served. The plane in a new look was for the first time obletan in September, 1943. As production versions the Me.310a-1 projects (Schnellbomber - a high-speed bomber) and Me.310A-2 (Zerstoerer - the hunter) were offered.
Both types should be equipped with the 1750 l DB 603А engines.page. at the earth, 1850 l.page. at the height of 2100 m and 1625 l.page. at the height of 5700 m. Planes were armed with two 7,92-mm machine guns of MG 17 and two 20-mm guns of MG 151 which have been rigidly mounted in a forward part of a fuselage, and also two 13-mm machine guns of MG 131 placed on boards in remotely operated tourist's fir-trees. On an internal suspension bracket the Me-310 plane could bear 1000 kg of bombs. As Me-310 differed from Me-410 only a little increased scope of a wing and a tight cabin, at the end of 1943 of Tecbnisches Amt ordered to curtail further works on this plane, having concentrated all efforts on operational development of Me-410."
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Me410 video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je5ySCoUrvY
 

hesham

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Hi,

here is a Messerschmitt Me.410 TL Project,P.1101 Variants (note a biplane and
M-wing),P.1109-02 and P.1110/170.

Jet Planes of the Third Reich - The Secret Projects-volume one
 

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sienar

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410C proposed as a nachtjager in 44

From Flugzeug Classic Special #6
 

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CJGibson

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Hood and I had a wander around the RAF Museum at Cosford. While looking at their Me 410A-1-U2, we were drawn to the propeller tips. They appear to be cropped. Are they cropped and if so why?

We did wonder if it was noise or vibration related or perhaps a very mundane reason.

Any ideas?

Chris
 

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kitnut617

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Prop tip to ground clearance on take off/landing maybe :-\
 

Hood

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And to add to the mystery, the only Me 410 I can find photographs of with cropped tips is the Cosford example.
Most period photos of Me 410s clearly have a pointed tip. So were only certain marks fitted with cropped tips or are these propellers from something else and used for the 1986 restoration?
 

newsdeskdan

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Interesting mystery. As far as I can tell, Me 410 A-1/U2 WNr. 420430 should have left the factory at Augsberg fitted with a pair of standard VDM 3.4m propellers for its DB 603 As, just like every other Me 410 A-1. Presumably, the clipped tip blades were fitted some time later in its service career (https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/85-AF-78-Me-410-420430.pdf). I'm not aware of VDM manufacturing any clipped-tip blades and they supplied 90% of the Luftwaffe's propellers.
 

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newsdeskdan

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Justo Miranda said:
Seems like a reasonable guess (first mentioned by Kitnut617!) to me. I don't know what the condition of the airfield at Vaerlose in Denmark was like at the end of the war but by then most Luftwaffe units were having to fly from what amounted to rough strips. There wasn't much prop clearance on the Me 410 anyway (though plenty for a well-maintained concrete runway) so it's possible that for safety's sake the blade tips were clipped as a field mod. Had any other 410s from Vaerlose survived, I think we might have seen clipped blade tips on them too. This now seems unlikely!
 

Blackbuck

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Nice to see you up my neck of the woods Hood.

I'll have to see if I can find where I read it but I seem to recall that they were cropped at some point during the aircraft's preserved existence, around the time they did the ground runs with it I believe.
 

hesham

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Blackbuck said:
Nice to see you up my neck of the woods Hood.

I'll have to see if I can find where I read it but I seem to recall that they were cropped at some point during the aircraft's preserved existence, around the time they did the ground runs with it I believe.
Welcome aboard at first,

and what was that mean ?.
 

Hood

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Blackbuck said:
Nice to see you up my neck of the woods Hood.

I'll have to see if I can find where I read it but I seem to recall that they were cropped at some point during the aircraft's preserved existence, around the time they did the ground runs with it I believe.
Nice to see you here Blackbuck.
That is the theory that I am most favouring.
I found pictures of the aircraft from the 1960s on Air Britain's AB-Pic and it clearly had standard propellers back then.
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/search?q=messerschmitt+me+410&f=_all&exact=1&type=&registration=&operator=&code_number=&construction_number=&airport=&country=&photographer=&date_taken=&airshow=&military_unit=&information=&exact=1&search_type=simple
I have found an engine run video on Youtube at St Athan in 1988 after the restoration and return to engine running and the tips were clipped, so I would agree the tips must have been clipped during the restoration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAcgUPjb16Q
 

newsdeskdan

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Hood said:
Blackbuck said:
Nice to see you up my neck of the woods Hood.

I'll have to see if I can find where I read it but I seem to recall that they were cropped at some point during the aircraft's preserved existence, around the time they did the ground runs with it I believe.
Nice to see you here Blackbuck.
That is the theory that I am most favouring.
I found pictures of the aircraft from the 1960s on Air Britain's AB-Pic and it clearly had standard propellers back then.
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/search?q=messerschmitt+me+410&f=_all&exact=1&type=&registration=&operator=&code_number=&construction_number=&airport=&country=&photographer=&date_taken=&airshow=&military_unit=&information=&exact=1&search_type=simple
I have found an engine run video on Youtube at St Athan in 1988 after the restoration and return to engine running and the tips were clipped, so I would agree the tips must have been clipped during the restoration.
A postwar alteration to a museum-piece standard production model then, rather than a Messerschmitt Bf/Me 210/410 Project, Prototype or Derivative. Ground clearance therefore seems to be an unlikely explanation, so why do it during restoration? Some interesting information here about what might happen to old propeller blades - corrosion, damage due to nicks and scratches resulting in failure, tips suffering damage due to hitting foreign objects, metal tips melting due to lightning strike etc. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-37e.pdf
 

Grey Havoc

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It might have been meant as a temporary expedient which for one reason or another never got fixed.
 

hesham

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Brilliant my dear Dan.
 

sienar

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newsdeskdan said:
Me 210 with twin tail wind tunnel model.
Is the 43 date on that just from when the report was created or is that wind tunnel testing from that year?
 

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Weird that it has a twin tail with still the turrets placed on the side fuselage lobes. Wouldn't it looks like they had some intends to carry something voluminous on the back?
 

newsdeskdan

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sienar said:
newsdeskdan said:
Me 210 with twin tail wind tunnel model.
Is the 43 date on that just from when the report was created or is that wind tunnel testing from that year?
It's the date on the report. It doesn't say when the testing was carried out.
 

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Arjen

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TomcatViP said:
Weird that it has a twin tail with still the turrets placed on the side fuselage lobes. Wouldn't it looks like they had some intends to carry something voluminous on the back?
The first Me 210 V1 prototype had a twin vertical tail similar to the Bf 110's tail. All subsequent Me 210 aircraft had a single vertical tail. I may be wrong about this, but I always thought the 210 prototype's tail was simply a carry-over from the 110 - impractical(?) for the 210's side mounted guns, OK for the gun on the rear end of the 110's canopy.
 

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newsdeskdan

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Arjen said:
TomcatViP said:
Weird that it has a twin tail with still the turrets placed on the side fuselage lobes. Wouldn't it looks like they had some intends to carry something voluminous on the back?
The first Me 210 V-1 prototype had a twin vertical tail similar to the Bf 110's tail. All subsequent Me 210 aircraft had a single vertical tail. I may be wrong about this, but I always thought the 210 prototype's tail was simply a carry-over from the 110 - impractical for the 210's side mounted guns, OK for the gun on the rear end of the 110's canopy.
In June 1944 (!) the DVL was testing an Me 210 (not 410) model with extended fuselage and V-tail...
 

sienar

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Arjen said:
TomcatViP said:
Weird that it has a twin tail with still the turrets placed on the side fuselage lobes. Wouldn't it looks like they had some intends to carry something voluminous on the back?
The first Me 210 V-1 prototype had a twin vertical tail similar to the Bf 110's tail. All subsequent Me 210 aircraft had a single vertical tail. I may be wrong about this, but I always thought the 210 prototype's tail was simply a carry-over from the 110 - impractical for the 210's side mounted guns, OK for the gun on the rear end of the 110's canopy.
I dont think it'd be that big of an issue. The side mounted guns will have pretty close to the same coverage in the vertical as the conventional tailed 210. The guns didn't have much horizontal traverse, probably not enough for the verticals to block their field of fire. And this arrangement has much better downwards coverage than a 110 style armament even if a twin tail restricts its field of fire a bit more.

I think the twin gun barrettes were first proposed when the 210 will still envisioned as a subtype of the 110. Its possible that this model dates from the late 30s.
 

Arjen

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Regarding twin tails: France ordered the DB-7, and asked Douglas to investigate a twin-tailed version because that might offer a better field of fire for the rear gun(s). Douglas complied, found out there were no meaningful advantages to the twin tail as regarded field of fire. All DB-7s delivered to France had conventional tails.
 

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Tonton-42

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Arjen said:
Regarding twin tails: France ordered the DB-7, and asked Douglas to investigate a twin-tailed version because that might offer a better field of fire for the rear gun(s). Douglas complied, found out there were no meaningful advantages to the twin tail as regarded field of fire. All DB-7s delivered to France had conventional tails.
Hello !

We shall note with interest the positioning of the flag of tail on the drift and not the rudder ...

Tonton
 
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