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Me 163B WITH Torpedos

Michel Van

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I Know sound Crazy

but German had 1944 Study about Me 163B Rocketplane WITH Torpedo's !

in 1992 they Discover in Aerodynamische Versuch Anstalt (AVA) at Göttingen several Files note.
of Windchannel Model of a Me 163B with 2 Bomb Torpedo's type BT1000.

one note was of a conference between engineer Hubert (from Messerschmitt) and professor Betz from AVA
"its necessary to check the Stability Me 163B with BT1000 in a Windchannel Test"
"the soon use of Plane against Shiptarget deepens of that Test Result"
"The Model is Ready middle of February for Test of 2 Day duration.
"A longer Test has to be interrupt, because of not urgent." signature mister Hildenbrand.
the note is date 9 February 1944.

more Files note and Photos show that Test was made

A letter from 22. September 1944 from Junkers "Flugzeugwerke und Motorenwerke" to AVA
say they receive the test result from February

the BT1000 Bomb Torpedo's
1000 kg Bomb rocket for land and sea Target
from Research's institute Graf Zeppelin in Stuttgart-Ruit

the Pilot or Bomber used a special developed "Reflexvisier"
from Drop height depend the BT1000 fly 3000 Meter far
the BT1000 was Propelled by Solid rocket by company "Rheinmetall"

Source Flug Revue April 1992 page 49
Source Picture Stüdienbüro für Luftfahrt, Feiler
 

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CJGibson

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See Herwig and Rode's "Luftwaffe Secret Projects Ground Attack and Special Purpose Aircraft" for more info on this and a different photo of the wind tunnel model.

KB
 

Archibald

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Better to ram directly the sea target, like an Okha... crazy luft'46 concept!! ::)
 

Jemiba

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Judging the range f the Me 163, it seems unlikely, that this aircraft armed
with bomb torpedoes, would have ever had a chance to attack a ship at sea ... :D
 

Michel Van

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with 40 km not much

can it be that Me 163B was für Aircraft Carrier "Graf Zeppelin" ???
 

Jemiba

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Probably not, I think.
The wind tunnel model is from about 1944, as you stated, the construction of the
Graf Zeppelin was stopped in 1943. And not to mention the dangers of the highly
volatile and explosive fuels of the Me 163, which already were too well known at
that time. I wouldn't think of these weapons as an operational armament for the
"Kraftei" (power egg, nickname of the Me 163), but as a test with a readily available
high speed aircraft.
 

Antonio

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At Geheimprojekte der DFS 1935-1945. Motorbuch Verlag. 2000 Page 142 there is a crude sketch. It represents a Me328 towed by a He111 flying over the sea. The Me328 is released and dives against an aircraft carrier. (The aircraft carrier is Graff Zeppelin). When I saw it for the first time I thought it was a torpedo attak but, in fact, the drawing is not detailed enough to see even if it is a suicide strike.

My German skills are very basic to understand the text. So if anybody wants to see it, I can send him.
 

Jemiba

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I just downloaded the mail from Pometablava with the mentioned sketch.
The description says :
"Mission profile of the Me 328B. A bomber towing the engineless Me 328B is
approaching the target. Out of range of the enemies air defence, the Me 328B
is released. It closes in gliding flight, until diving onto the target in a steep
dive with high speed."
The part of the article on this page clearly is describing the organisation of the "SO-Kommandos",
the suicide attack groups. Really startling stuff ! Groups of ten men were formed, five
of them should have been chosen by chance, to fly attacks. Only if they were succesful,
the other five would have been released from flying attacks on their own. This was seen
as a way to improve efficiency of the attackers, as they had the responsibility for the lives
of their comrades !
It's emphasized, that those men joined the SO-Kommando absolutely freely and were free
to leave, until they were chosen for an attack.
And the shown carrier is without any doubt the Graf Zepelin !
 

Antonio

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Thanks a lot Jemiba, that text I sent you is more interesting than I expected.
I knew about
SO-Kommandos is new for me.

I've heard about:

Lufwaffe Sturmgruppen
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S9088~ser=AEU~per=2

Fieseler Fi 103 Reichenberg
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/Elevon/baugher_other/fi103.html
(According to Steven Zaloga's "Target America". Ed Presidio. ISBN 0-89141-400-2. on page 113 can be read that Otto Skorzeny developed a scheme to launch piloted Fi-103 against key Soviet industries in the Urals. He proposed 250 air launched Fi-103 to be released. Pilots will bail out before the crash.

Daimler Benz Project E

http://www.luft46.com/db/dbbombe.html


Me 163 with torpedo was tested on 9 February 1944 so could it, and also the Me 328B, be related to defence against Allied amphibious assaults?. Overlord was in June 1944.
 

Antonio

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Just one more reference to Luftwaffe suicide unit from Wings&Airpower Article Index 1972-2004 (the 2005 version I received it from lark, but a 2007 version can be found here:

http://www.wingsairpower.com/back-issues/

In August 1971 it was published "Rommkommando. Lufwaffe Suicide Sqdn. (Westell)

Unfortunally, that issue is not available. I feel very curious about its contents :'(
 

AMF

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I remember having read the article in Flug Revue mentioned in Michael Van's post.
I absolutely could not remember the year before I saw it in the first post of this thread.
However, I remembered the month of the issue of Flug Revue perfectly well, even before I saw it again in Michael Van's post. Why could I remember the month so well? Because it was an April issue and at the first time I read the article I took it for an All Fools' Day joke. I think I remember another article from another April issue of Flug Revue about a supposed project to put the turret of a Leopard tank on a pair of aircraft floats as the basis for a "high speed gunboat".
Of course I can guarantee nothing, but I still think the likelyhood of a joke as fairly high. Perhaps the 1992 May issue of Flug Revue might shed some light on this, because newspaper or journals often admit their All Fools' Day jokes afterwards.
As Jemiba already stated, the range of the Me 163 was ridiculously short (and would be even shorter with a heavy load like the one mentioned) and it was very prone to accidental explosions. For an interceptor, the limited range is not that bad. If you station it near, say, Berlin then enemy aircraft are bound to come to the interceptor. But how is anti-shipping plane to come near enemy ships? With a range of 40 km (mentioned by Michael Van) you cannot even reach the other side of the English Channel at its narrowest point and return.
Would there even have been ground clearance for the bomb-torpedoes? The Me 163 landed on a skid, which makes landings (I think) somewhat bumpy. Would the bomb-torpedoes not break loose if the Me 163 tried to land with them, after a practice flight or after not having found its target?
 

Jemiba

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Had another look at the photo, and I think, with these weapons, the Me 163
would hardly have been able to take off on itself, because of too low ground
clearance. But, of course, there may have been thoughts, about other take-off
methods, e.g. piggy back. This also would have cured some range problems, so
an attack on an invasion fleet nearby the coast could have been possible.
But, of course, that's only an idea, that I cannot prove with any source !
 

CJGibson

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Now then, now then, what have we here? It was sent to me by a mate. It was apparently dug up in Germany and subsequently blown up by an EOD team! I don't have any details apart from that it was first posted on another forum.

Chris
 

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Jemiba

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The T-shaped object reminds me on the guide pins used on tube launched torpedoes
and probably not needed on an airlaunched variant. Maybe one of the rocket torpedo
types tested at the end of the war ?
 

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Grzesio

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The T-shaped thing is a standard suspension lug used on heavier German bombs, while the whole projectile obviously is a BT with a Rheinmetall-Borsig solid fuelled engine for rocket bombs, with reduction valve etc.
BT 1000 RS seems to be a good match (as the picture is named) - if any BT 1000 RS were built. :)
 

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