Long Range Precision Fires

TomcatViP

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That's all that was missing in the Vietnam war arsenal: a Saturn V turned into a ballistic missile... :confused:
 

TomcatViP

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Not sure. Look at what was to be the F-14 before the F-14.... You're not factoring in the bean counters ;)
 

sferrin

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bobbymike

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That's all that was missing in the Vietnam war arsenal: a Saturn V turned into a ballistic missile... :confused:
A Saturn V would take 100,000lbs a hell of a lot further than 200 miles. ;)
Well there was a proposal to turn the Aerojet General 260” solid into an ICBM carrying 150,000lbs payload :oops:
Don't recall the details. Scott L has them (what there is anyway).
I have a graphic of the proposal on my old laptop I’ll do some digging
 

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Long Range Precision Fires seems to me to be a move to move the center of mass away from armor/mech and to artillery to simply pulverize the OpFor where ever it lives in increasingly cost effective ways as the range bands decrease. If I guided RAP arty shell can reach 70 km and cost as much as the shell plus a <$10,000 guidance unit/fuse, then engaging a single 6x6 supply truck with an artillery round suddenly becomes a perfectly cost effective way of doing business. GMLRS pushes that out to 100km+ and $100,000+ for the long range version, but that's still worth a radar or command post at least. PrSM pushes range and price to 500km/$1million, and SM-6 pushes that further out for ~4 million. LRHW is probably 30-40 million, but at that point you're hitting target a couple thousand miles away.

The main feature all of the above need is sufficient ISR to provide targetting data, AI to sort through the wide area target data and identify targets and prioritize them, and further AI to take a list of targets, a list of potential fire sources, and match them up in a range/cost effective manner to produce good effects. I'm specifically very interested in the Project Convergence exercises for this reason. Last year they utilized commercial satellites as well as military ones and apparently the observe to shoot cycle was in minutes or seconds. Obviously that's in a benign test environment, but if a robust, survivable ISR/AI system could be produced to provide fire missions to the Army's LRPS units in an organized way, artillery might decide most engagements.

Picture an armored brigade resting for the night engaged by a battalion of ERCA howitzers upgraded with auto loaders, using GPS ammo and provided with exact vehicle targets as their fire missions (one vehicles = one shell fire mission from one gun). You could fire a round at every armored vehicle in the unit in a minute and then scoot and see what survived.
 

jsport

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The US Army made the goofy decision to eliminate LRPs in favor of UAS some yrs ago.
 

jsport

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These creatures could do airbase defense and more.


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The 5 inch gun-launch system was initially designed to satisfy the requirements of the Meteorological Rocket Network This required that an 0.9 kg (2 lb) payload be carried to an altitude of 65 km (40 miles). Typical payloads were radar reflective chaff ejected at apogee, which was tracked by radar to yield wind data, and small Metsondes which drifted to earth under large parachutes and returned radio telemetry of temperature, humidity and the like. The 7 inch HARP gun system represented the 5 inch system scaled up to the largest barrel size practical, while still remaining portable.
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The 7 inch gun launcher was created by smooth boring a 175 mm gun and extending it in a similar manner as the 5 inch gun system. The completed gun barrel was 16.8 m (55 feet) long (7 inch L 92.4) and was installed in a modified T-76 mount. Two of the new guns were constructed. The 7 inch guns had 3 times the payload capacity of the 5 inch guns and an altitude capability in excess of 100 km. The 7 inch guns filled the altitude gap between the maximum 5 inch gun altitude and the minimal attractive altitude for 16 inch gun probes.
 

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sferrin

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A conventional munition flies at 25 miles per hour????
Usain bolt is fast, but I'm sure a howitzer round travels faster.:(

Looks like they fixed it; now refers to normal shells having a range of 25 miles, versus up to 44 for the ramjet.
Which is pretty sad when you consider only months ago they were talking about much high ranges up to and including 1000+ miles with the super howitzer. Hell a G6 beats it and doesn't even need the ramjet:

 

Josh_TN

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44 does seem a little pointless. I think the ERCA can do that with a RAP.
 

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This is a round with a terminal seeker and that is compatible with not just the ERCA but also existing L39 tubes.
 

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General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (OTS) says it has successfully tested four XM1210 (XM1113ER) high explosive rocket-assisted projectiles for the US Army’s future Extended Range Cannon Artillery (ERCA) system.

According to the company, the projectiles demonstrated a range capability in excess of 70 kilometers during the October 2 test at the Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona.


 

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The company did not disclose the distance the PrSM traveled in its flight test, but the goal of the test was to see exactly how far the missile can travel beyond its previous set requirement of 499 kilometers.
 

bring_it_on

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It's a 500 km class missile that they previously estimated could get to about 550 km once the EMD versions are delivered. So that's its max range capability until it receives a propulsion upgrade possibly later in the decade.
 

totallyaverage

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A conventional munition flies at 25 miles per hour????
Usain bolt is fast, but I'm sure a howitzer round travels faster.:(

Looks like they fixed it; now refers to normal shells having a range of 25 miles, versus up to 44 for the ramjet.
Which is pretty sad when you consider only months ago they were talking about much high ranges up to and including 1000+ miles with the super howitzer. Hell a G6 beats it and doesn't even need the ramjet:

SLRC is a much larger weapon in the 200mm plus range. It isn't relevant to the M109.

As for the Rheinmetall demo, of course they beat what the M109 could do with a ramjet, the G6 ER is a L52 gun with a non-NATO standard 25 liter chamber. You can get a RAP very far with that setup. The M1299's gun can easily hit that range with a RAP, even with a drag-inducing PGK on the front of it. A ramjet round fired from this gun on the other hand is expected to go past a hundred kilometers.
 

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I wish them luck, but I think the SLRC was probably a bridge too far.

I wonder if the longer barrel of the ERCA would impart a significant range advantage or if the round would just top out at terminal velocity and only go incrementally further?
 

bring_it_on

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SLRC is funded but its an S&T effort and not a program or even an operationally fieldable prototype program like the other efforts. There are three teams working on a ramjet round for the 155 mm guns including ERCA. All are funded to demo around the same time.
 

Josh_TN

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I think the 155mm will definitely happen; its an achievable goal. SLRC I think had range and cost requirements that are just beyond the tech right now. I was curious though whether increasing the charge behind a ramjet round appreciably ups the range; I kinda would have thought once the ramjet is up to speed most of the the extra energy is just bled off in drag during flight. Basically, would the ERCA really add more range compared to plane jane M109A7 if the round is mostly an airbreather? But even if not, still an amazing capability if they can field it. The US and its allies have no shortage of 155mm tubes.
 

jsport

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SLRC is funded but its an S&T effort and not a program or even an operationally fieldable prototype program like the other efforts. There are three teams working on a ramjet round for the 155 mm guns including ERCA. All are funded to demo around the same time.
there are surely many multiple issues and even options to resolve to get SLRC right, and unfortunately likely not enough time, however msles are still one shot wonders in more respects than one.

PS: a return of the 203mm or 175mm ramjets w/ ranges beyond any 155mm would likely be worth a look.
 

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