• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Lockheed P-38 Lightning Competitors

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,899
Reaction score
247
Lockheed P-38 Lightning Competitors

In 1936 the US Army Air Corps (USAAC) put out a tender for a ‘Twin-engine, High Altitude Interceptor’ that was designated as ‘X-608’

The winner of this competition would be the Lockheed Model 22 / P-38 Lightning.
But does anyone know of the proposals to ‘X-608’ submitted by the other aviation company’s that the USAAC approached – Boeing, , Consolidated, Curtiss, Douglas and Vultee.

Do you have their designations, technical data, drawings, art work etc…….

Regards
Pioneer
 

elmayerle

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
134
There was an old issue of the AAHS Journal that had an article on Gerald Vultee's entry.
 

Tophe

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
39
Website
cmeunier.chez-alice.fr
I have read somewhere that there have been also a Hughes entry in the X-608 competition, a twin-boomer, and Howard Hughes then accused Lockheed of illegal copy. This was far before the D-5 design and even before the D-2.
I'd be happy if I ever see a picture of this secret twin-boomer...
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,899
Reaction score
247
Does anyone have a copy of that old issue of the AAHS Journal that had the article on Gerald Vultee's entry?

That sounds like Howard Hughes (have you read his autobiography ?)
I to would be interested in this secret twin-boom Hughes design

Thanks guys!

Regards
Pioneer
 

lark

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,806
Reaction score
77
The Vultee Model 70 is in :
Journal , American Aviation Historical Society /Winter 1995.
3 variants differing mainly in the prop.configuration.
 

devi

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
118
Reaction score
4
1) Boeing Model 3??
2) Consolivated Model ?
3) Curtiss Model ?
4) Douglas Model ?
5) Lockheed Model 22
6) Vultee Model XP1015/Model V-35(and or XP-35)
 

Antonio

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,515
Reaction score
249
Hi Devi,

where did you foud this designations for Vultee?. Can you give more info?. They are unknown for me and not related from Vultee's number system.

You can get the project list from "Vultee Aircraft 1932-1947" by Jonathan Thompson. Ed Narkiewicz//Thompson ISBN 0-913322-02-4. It runs from 1 to 99. All numbers from 100 on were Convair.

Model 70 , as lark posted earlier, is the right entry in the X-608 competition. This pursuit fighter was propelled with the Allison V-1710. Unfortunately I have no more info and no drawing.

Cheers
Antonio
 

devi

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
118
Reaction score
4
Hi pometablava

Vultee Model 70 participated in competition R-40C (XP-54 ---XP-56).

Vultee Model XP1015 (also known as Model XP-35/Model 35) participated in competition X-608.
Source:Journal AAHS,1988,V.33,N1(Spring): Vultee "P-38"(Model XP1015) and soviet old book(Clause about Vultee XP-35 ).
 

Antonio

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,515
Reaction score
249
Thanks a lot Devi, you're very kind.

This is a very interesting info. I have also some additional data from "Vultee Aircraft 1932-1947"
Vultee studied a twin boom, single pusher engine pursuit fighter in 1939 under designation Model V-78 (I have drawings from two different variants). An oversized development designated Model V-84 was Vultee's entry for R-40C (XP-54). The XP-68 (reengined XP-54) retained the Model V-84 designation.
In the book there is also an unclear Model V-84E which I don't know what it is.


Antonio
 

Antonio

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,515
Reaction score
249
I have read somewhere that there have been also a Hughes entry in the X-608 competition, a twin-boomer, and Howard Hughes then accused Lockheed of illegal copy

Dear Tophe,

According to Le Fana de l'Aviation Nº429 (Août 2005) it never existed a Hugues contender for X-608. Hugues wanted new aircraft to go beyond its own record with the Lockheed 14-N2. He ned a fighter-type aircraft which was designated D-2 and studies started in 1938. The Lockheed Model 22 (XP-38) was submitted to the USAAC in April 1937. Even the twin boom fighter was not a Lockheed invention, the Fokker G.1 was the star at Le Salon de l'Aéronautique parisien in 1936.
When Hugues tried to sell the D-2 to the Air Force, he claimed that the P-38 was a copy of its own concept but this was only a
marketing tactic.

Antonio
 

Antonio

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,515
Reaction score
249
Dear folks,

everyone interested in the P-38 must have a copy of "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" by Warren M Bodie. Widewing Publications. ISBN 0-9629359-0-5. It is a masterpiece


Devi, you're right. I get confirmation about Vultee's X-609, it is the XP 1015 (Experimental in house designation) Model V-35.
with 2 Allison V-1710 engines
 

devi

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
118
Reaction score
4
Hi pometablava.

If there is in the book " The Lockheed P-38 Lightning " projects designation of other competitors of program X-608, shall forgive tell to us:

1) Boeing Model 3??
2) Consolivated Model ?
3) Curtiss Model ?
4) Douglas Model ?
5) Lockheed Model 22
6) Vultee Model XP1015/Model V-35(and or XP-35)


If there is in the book " The Lockheed P-38 Lightning " projects designation of other competitors of program CP39-775 (Lockheed XP-49, Grumman XP-50) shall forgive tell to us:

1) Grumman G-41---------------------------------later G-45 (XP-50)
2) Lockheed Model 222/model L-106-------later Model 522/L-106 (XP-49)
3) ? Model ? --------------------------later Model ?
4) ? Model ? --------------------------later Model ?
 

Antonio

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,515
Reaction score
249
According to "The American Fighter" from Angelucci and Bowers the X-608 contenders were Consolidated, Curtiss, Douglas, Lockheed and Vultee but in Warren M Bodie book there are references to Lockheed, Curtiss and Vultee submissions.

From page 16:
although we have never managed to find even a single sketch of the Curtiss interceptor design entry, it was probably a version of the A-18 with single seat and two Allisons

The Curtiss A-18 Shrike from 1937 was Model Type 76A (Minidocavia 2. "A-comme Attaque". Alain Pelletier. Editions Larivière)
 

Antonio

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,515
Reaction score
249
If there is in the book " The Lockheed P-38 Lightning " projects designation of other competitors of program CP39-775 (Lockheed XP-49, Grumman XP-50) shall forgive tell to us:

I have never found references to different submissions other than XP-49 and XP-50 for CP39-775 long range escort fighter
 

Tophe

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
39
Website
cmeunier.chez-alice.fr
Thanks for reminding the competition XP-49/XP-50 - that made me draw a what-if XP-50-like Lightning, at http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4626&st=400&#entry158793
Thanks again for enriching our dreams.
 

lark

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,806
Reaction score
77
The research by Devi concerning the Vultee model 35 is correct
The Vultee model 70 mentioned earlier was responding to
Air Corps type spec.XC 622 of November 1939 for a single
engined single seat pursuit.
Thus much later than XC 608 .
Well done Devi and Pometablava...
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,092
Reaction score
3,769
Hi,

and may be the Boeing proposal was the Model-306C,the drawing is from this topic;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,304.0/highlight,boeing+306.html
 

Attachments

  • Bo-306C.JPG
    Bo-306C.JPG
    49.1 KB · Views: 1,292

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,227
Reaction score
471
Elsewhere I read that the Model 306A, also a flying-wing design, was a bomber project. So is it possible that the 306C could be a pursuit project?
 

toura

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,203
Reaction score
103
hi Stargazer,
Look "secret projets"
Boeing flying wings projects of 1930
Bye
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,092
Reaction score
3,769
Hi,

the Vultee XP-1015;
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4181.0/highlight,vultee.html
 
J

joncarrfarrelly

Guest
pometablava said:
Thanks a lot Devi, you're very kind.

This is a very interesting info. I have also some additional data from "Vultee Aircraft 1932-1947"
Vultee studied a twin boom, single pusher engine pursuit fighter in 1939 under designation Model V-78 (I have drawings from two different variants). An oversized development designated Model V-84 was Vultee's entry for R-40C (XP-54). The XP-68 (reengined XP-54) retained the Model V-84 designation.
In the book there is also an unclear Model V-84E which I don't know what it is.


Antonio

My reading of Thompson's text is that the Model V-84 became the Model V-84E (XP-54 41-1210) when the engine was changed from the P&W X-1800 to the Lycoming XH-2470.

Jon
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,227
Reaction score
471
Very interesting thread! I like the P-54 and find it unfair that although the winner over the the Curtiss and Northrop designs, it is the least known of the three... I didn't know that the XP-68 retained the V-84 designation, although it's pretty logical. Now was the XP-68 really called the "Tornado", as some sources claim, or was it a confusion with the Tornado engine? Also I once found that the XP-54 had been developed for Specification "24-C", although we know it was in fact R-40C. Could it be that there was an earlier specification that was overridden by R-40C for some reason? The earlier V-78 "Shrike" project is also said to have been for the same competition...
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,227
Reaction score
471
pometablava said:
According to "The American Fighter" from Angelucci and Bowers the X-608 contenders were Consolidated, Curtiss, Douglas, Lockheed and Vultee but in Warren M Bodie book there are references to Lockheed, Curtiss and Vultee submissions.

Another source I once took notes from listed the same but replaced Lockheed by Boeing... :-\
 

Nico

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
266
Reaction score
24
Pioneer said:
Lockheed P-38 Lightning Competitors

In 1936 the US Army Air Corps (USAAC) put out a tender for a ‘Twin-engine, High Altitude Interceptor’ that was designated as ‘X-608’

The winner of this competition would be the Lockheed Model 22 / P-38 Lightning.
But does anyone know of the proposals to ‘X-608’ submitted by the other aviation company’s that the USAAC approached – Boeing, , Consolidated, Curtiss, Douglas and Vultee.

Do you have their designations, technical data, drawings, art work etc…….

Regards
Pioneer

Was 1936? I found a note quoting February 1937 (but I lack the source...)
Nico S.
 

Richard N

Lost in the Sky
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
559
Reaction score
369
From a very old issue of "Flying" in my library.
 

Attachments

  • We built it to compete with Lockheed.jpg
    We built it to compete with Lockheed.jpg
    106.4 KB · Views: 719

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,092
Reaction score
3,769
Hi Richard N,


I think it was a fake design,not real at all.
 

Johnbr

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
749
Reaction score
154
1937 competition X-608 -- issued 01/08/1937:

-- twin-engine interceptor, 360-400 mph @ 20,000', climb to 20,000' in 6 min.

-- Lockheed Model 22-64-01 -- proposal submitted 04/1937; contract for prototype awarded 06/23/1937; first flight 01/27/1939; becomes P-38

-- Vultee XP1015

-- Boeing (not specified)

-- Consolidated (not specified)

-- Curtiss (not specified)

-- Douglas (not specified)
 

Attachments

  • Vultee XP1015 (competitor to P-38.jpg
    Vultee XP1015 (competitor to P-38.jpg
    202.8 KB · Views: 497

Antonio

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,515
Reaction score
249
Topics merged


XP-1015 specific topic here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4181.0/all.html
 

RyanCrierie

Crazy Researcher
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
847
Reaction score
83
Website
www.alternatewars.com
The final standing and measures of merit in the X-608 competition were:

Lockheed 65%
Hughes 47.3%
Vultee 45.4%
Vought 41.5%

The Hughes designation was H-1 and attached is a picture.
 

Attachments

  • HughesH1.png
    HughesH1.png
    768.2 KB · Views: 749

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,092
Reaction score
3,769
Amazing and great find my dear Ryan,

please can you named those Projects ?,for example Hughes H-1,Lockheed Model-?,and
...elt
 

RyanCrierie

Crazy Researcher
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
847
Reaction score
83
Website
www.alternatewars.com
My dear Hesham, the stuff I found is found here:

LINK

LINK 2

link 3

reprinted in the Truman Committee senate hearings; because Hughes was still butt-hurt over losing the P-38 competition to Lockheed, so for some reason these documents were entered into the congressional record.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,092
Reaction score
3,769
Thank you my dear Ryan,

and there was also Hughes H-2 ?.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,092
Reaction score
3,769
RyanC said:
The final standing and measures of merit in the X-608 competition were:

Lockheed 65%
Hughes 47.3%
Vultee 45.4%
Vought 41.5%

When you search in Vought list,you find nothing about that proposal ?.
 

Attachments

  • Vought_projects_2.gif
    Vought_projects_2.gif
    34.8 KB · Views: 400

sienar

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
653
Reaction score
284
RyanC said:
My dear Hesham, the stuff I found is found here:

LINK

LINK 2

link 3

reprinted in the Truman Committee senate hearings; because Hughes was still butt-hurt over losing the P-38 competition to Lockheed, so for some reason these documents were entered into the congressional record.

I've been looking through these documents and found the 2 place design Hughes submitted to this competition under the H-2 designation.
 

Attachments

  • hughes h2 2.jpg
    hughes h2 2.jpg
    366.9 KB · Views: 266

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,227
Reaction score
471
Awesome discoveries, RyanC and sienar, thanks for these!

It's annoying though that Hughes reused the H-1 designation which was already that of his 1935 racer...
 

Similar threads

Top