Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[GTX]

F-35 Program Stagnated in 2021 but DOD Testing Office Hiding Full Extent of Problem

More than 20 years after Lockheed Martin won the contract for the F-35 program, development has largely stalled, with little real progress having been demonstrated over the past several years. And now there’s even less transparency.

www.pogo.org

I would take any of POGO's 'reporting' with a fist full of salt, especially anything on the F-35.

 

[sferrin]

F-35 Program Stagnated in 2021 but DOD Testing Office Hiding Full Extent of Problem

More than 20 years after Lockheed Martin won the contract for the F-35 program, development has largely stalled, with little real progress having been demonstrated over the past several years. And now there’s even less transparency.

www.pogo.org

I would take any of POGO's 'reporting' with a fist full of salt, especially anything on the F-35.

More like a truck load. IIRC they were the people paying Sprey & Co. to attack the JSF at every turn back in the day.

 

[GTX]

To give you a feel for the future:

 

[NMaude]

I'm wondering if and when a two-seat version is going to be developed?

 

[GTX]

I'm wondering if and when a two-seat version is going to be developed?

It's never going to be.

 

[GTX]

While I know they will go the the F-35A and it will be in grey, I would love to see this:

 

[NMaude]

I'm wondering if and when a two-seat version is going to be developed?

It's never going to be.

Don't be so sure as it might still happen. I remember reading a USMC paper concerning the need for a two-seat F-35 based on their experience with the F/A-18 Hornet and a two-seater could be made by modifying the F-35B so there's a second seat instead of the lift-fan.

 

[GTX]

Don't be so sure as it might still happen.

Oh, I'm very sure. There are nearly 800 produced and delivered, its in widespread service and there is no operational demand.

 

[X-39]

@NMaude There is still the proposed study case for a "new variant" apparently pitched to an "undisclosed customer".

 

[NMaude]

@NMaude There is still the proposed study case for a "new variant" apparently pitched to an "undisclosed customer".

What are the odds that this "Undisclosed customer" is Israel? Also do you have a link to this study please?

 

[X-39]

@NMaude Yes, probably "Undisclosed" means "Isreal"

Lockheed Martin to design and develop F-35 variant ‘tailored' for foreign customer

Lockheed Martin has been contracted to design and develop a variant of its F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) geared towards the requirements of an unspecified...

www.janes.com

Lockheed Martin has been contracted to design and develop a variant of its F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) geared towards the requirements of an unspecified foreign customer.


The US Department of Defense (DoD) announced on 27 December that the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) had been awarded USD49 million to support its work on an F-35 variant “tailored” for an undisclosed Foreign Military Sale (FMS) customer. Work related to this particular award is expected to run through to December 2026...

 

[TomcatViP]

At 49M$, when it comes to cockpit design for a Stealth a/c, I might be wrong, but you'd probably get no more than a rubber line and a handle bar for the second member...

(Seems the Swedes got to test it before all others)

View: https://youtu.be/jbiSo3ApGdw

 

[bobbymike]

Marines To Test Lightning Carrier Concept With 20 F-35Bs Aboard USS Tripoli This April

The Lightning Carrier concept has been in the works for years and will effectively see big deck amphibious assault ships turned into light carriers.

www.thedrive.com

 

[GTX]

@NMaude There is still the proposed study case for a "new variant" apparently pitched to an "undisclosed customer".

Still won't be a two seater.

 

[Forest Green]

Marines To Test Lightning Carrier Concept With 20 F-35Bs Aboard USS Tripoli This April

The Lightning Carrier concept has been in the works for years and will effectively see big deck amphibious assault ships turned into light carriers.

www.thedrive.com

They already carry AV-8Bs, so hasn't that errr.... ship already sailed?

 

[NMaude]

Marines To Test Lightning Carrier Concept With 20 F-35Bs Aboard USS Tripoli This April

The Lightning Carrier concept has been in the works for years and will effectively see big deck amphibious assault ships turned into light carriers.

www.thedrive.com

They already carry AV-8Bs, so hasn't that errr.... ship already sailed?

The Harrier II's are getting old so they will need replacement in the near future.

 

[Fluff]

Marines To Test Lightning Carrier Concept With 20 F-35Bs Aboard USS Tripoli This April

The Lightning Carrier concept has been in the works for years and will effectively see big deck amphibious assault ships turned into light carriers.

www.thedrive.com

They already carry AV-8Bs, so hasn't that errr.... ship already sailed?

Normally the amphib ships carry a mixed air wing, so mostly helo, to support the marine landing, this will be a pure F35 ship, so it is a miniCV.

 

[TomS]

Marines To Test Lightning Carrier Concept With 20 F-35Bs Aboard USS Tripoli This April

The Lightning Carrier concept has been in the works for years and will effectively see big deck amphibious assault ships turned into light carriers.

www.thedrive.com

They already carry AV-8Bs, so hasn't that errr.... ship already sailed?

RTFA?

It talks about how this exercise builds on experience with AV-8B. This will be the first time deploying 20 F-35B on an amphib. That goes specifically to the "Lightning" in the Lightning Carrier concept. An air wing with 20 stealth strike fighters is a really different prospect than one with the same number of Harriers. With Harrier, you have mainly a BAI/CAS capability, while F-35 makes you start thinking about how you could use it for strike warfare and war-at-sea maritime strikes.

 

[rooster]

Marines To Test Lightning Carrier Concept With 20 F-35Bs Aboard USS Tripoli This April

The Lightning Carrier concept has been in the works for years and will effectively see big deck amphibious assault ships turned into light carriers.

www.thedrive.com

They already carry AV-8Bs, so hasn't that errr.... ship already sailed?

Didn't they have to get new decks for the 35s engines temps?

 

[rooster]

Marines To Test Lightning Carrier Concept With 20 F-35Bs Aboard USS Tripoli This April

The Lightning Carrier concept has been in the works for years and will effectively see big deck amphibious assault ships turned into light carriers.

www.thedrive.com

They already carry AV-8Bs, so hasn't that errr.... ship already sailed?

RTFA?

It talks about how this exercise builds on experience with AB-8B. This will be the first time deploying 20 F-35B on an amphib. That goes specifically to the "Lighting" in the Lightning Carrier concept. An air wing with 20 stealth strike fighters is a really different prospect than one with the same number of Harriers. With Harrier, you have mainly a BAI/CAS capability, while F-35 makes you start thinking about how you could use it for strike warfare and war-at-sea maritime strikes.

The f35 carrier is a game changer! The biggest limiting factor is the lack of nuclear propulsion

 

[torginus]

I'm wondering if and when a two-seat version is going to be developed?

It's never going to be.

Don't be so sure as it might still happen. I remember reading a USMC paper concerning the need for a two-seat F-35 based on their experience with the F/A-18 Hornet and a two-seater could be made by modifying the F-35B so there's a second seat instead of the lift-fan.

So the USMC, the very reason the F35B exists (which is probably the single biggest problem source for the airframe), are dropping STOVL requirements?

 

[sferrin]

Marines To Test Lightning Carrier Concept With 20 F-35Bs Aboard USS Tripoli This April

The Lightning Carrier concept has been in the works for years and will effectively see big deck amphibious assault ships turned into light carriers.

www.thedrive.com

They already carry AV-8Bs, so hasn't that errr.... ship already sailed?

Didn't they have to get new decks for the 35s engines temps?

No, just a new coating.

 

[kitnut617]

I'm wondering if and when a two-seat version is going to be developed?

It's never going to be.

Don't be so sure as it might still happen. I remember reading a USMC paper concerning the need for a two-seat F-35 based on their experience with the F/A-18 Hornet and a two-seater could be made by modifying the F-35B so there's a second seat instead of the lift-fan.

It wouldn't need to be a tandem seat arrangement, I'm in the process of building a 2-seat F-35B model which would retain the lift fan, it will be a side-by-side arrangement. I have found that the TF-106 nose fits right onto the main bulkhead that the cockpit is attached to without making the bulkhead wider, it also has the benefit of having a very similar cross-section to the F-35's. The TF-106 nose will be slightly modified to look a little more like a F-35 than a TF-106 though, changes to the canopy, F-35 style radome, sharpening up the chine edge etc.

The bulkhead I mention above, is actually wider than most existing side-by-side designs that were used.

 

[riggerrob]

I'm wondering if and when a two-seat version is going to be developed?

It's never going to be.

Don't be so sure as it might still happen. I remember reading a USMC paper concerning the need for a two-seat F-35 based on their experience with the F/A-18 Hornet and a two-seater could be made by modifying the F-35B so there's a second seat instead of the lift-fan.

So the USMC, the very reason the F35B exists (which is probably the single biggest problem source for the airframe), are dropping STOVL requirements?

I doubt if they will ever build a 2-seater version of F-35. Previously, 2- seaters were primarily used as transition trainers for pilots new to a new generation of fighter. But modern - ground-based - flight simulators are realistic enough to provide transition training plus some re-currency training .... re-currency training costing many thousands of dollars per hour.

The other use for 2-seaters is the F-18 Growler electronic warfare version where all the extra electronic counter-measures are so complex that they need a dedicated second crew-member. That second crew-member does not even need to train for pilot duties as he is too busy navigating and chasing electrons. Increased sophistication of avionics allow little black boxes to make many of the decisions currently made by the second crew-member.

 

[riggerrob]

This new concept brings strike aircraft carriers back into the price range of medium-sized navies like Argentina, Brazil, India, Italy, Spain, etc.
It also raises questions about a tanker able to fly from that short deck. While the quick-and-dirty solution is merely hanging buddy-refueling pods under VTOL F-35s, that proves prohibitively expensive in the long run.
The long term solution requires a VTOL drone that can work as an unpiloted tanker, COD or electronic warfare plane. An un-manned drone will vastly reduce long-term costs.

 

[Flyaway]

@NMaude There is still the proposed study case for a "new variant" apparently pitched to an "undisclosed customer".

I thought that was meant to be the UAE.

 

[FighterJock]

@NMaude There is still the proposed study case for a "new variant" apparently pitched to an "undisclosed customer".

I thought that was meant to be the UAE.

Yes you are right Flyaway, plus I thought that the new variant would have certain classified technologies removed for security reasons.

 

[TomcatViP]

Are you not confusing the TF-102 with the TF-106?

 

[GTX]

It wouldn't need to be a tandem seat arrangement, I'm in the process of building a 2-seat F-35B model which would retain the lift fan, it will be a side-by-side arrangement.

Let's not confuse fantasy model building (which I am fully supportive of...just not for this thread) with reality.

 

[sferrin]

I'm wondering if and when a two-seat version is going to be developed?

It's never going to be.

Don't be so sure as it might still happen. I remember reading a USMC paper concerning the need for a two-seat F-35 based on their experience with the F/A-18 Hornet and a two-seater could be made by modifying the F-35B so there's a second seat instead of the lift-fan.

It wouldn't need to be a tandem seat arrangement, I'm in the process of building a 2-seat F-35B model which would retain the lift fan, it will be a side-by-side arrangement.

Don't even joke about such a monstrosity.

 

[TomcatViP]

Well, now that we have Germany in the program, I dare you not to think at a Zwilling F-35; Albeit called... The F-66*!


*F-35 + (P-82-P-51)

 

[NeilChapman]

That second crew-member dos not even need to train for pilot duties as he is too busy navigating and chasing electrons. Increased sophistication of avionics allow little black boxes to make many of the decisions currently made by the second crew-member.

And the pilot... Planes fly themselves to a point in space these days.

 

[TomS]

So the USMC, the very reason the F35B exists (which is probably the single biggest problem source for the airframe), are dropping STOVL requirements?

The Marines also have several squadrons of F-35C for operations from aircraft carriers.

 

[sferrin]

So the USMC, the very reason the F35B exists (which is probably the single biggest problem source for the airframe), are dropping STOVL requirements?

The Marines also have several squadrons of F-35C for operations from aircraft carriers.

Yep. F-35B replaces their Harriers and the F-35C replaces their legacy Hornets.

 

[NMaude]

I'm wondering if and when a two-seat version is going to be developed?

It's never going to be.

Don't be so sure as it might still happen. I remember reading a USMC paper concerning the need for a two-seat F-35 based on their experience with the F/A-18 Hornet and a two-seater could be made by modifying the F-35B so there's a second seat instead of the lift-fan.

So the USMC, the very reason the F35B exists (which is probably the single biggest problem source for the airframe), are dropping STOVL requirements?

No, I'm saying there are certain roles where a second crew-member maybe needed, say, for example an electronic warfare variant.

 

[TomS]

No, I'm saying there are certain roles where a second crew-member maybe needed, say, for example an electronic warfare variant.

It's hard to figure out when/where the USN/UC would need it, though. On a full carrier, the Growler fills the role. On a big-deck amphib, F-35B needs the lift fan.

 

[NMaude]

On a big-deck amphib, F-35B needs the lift fan.

If a two-seat version of the F-35 was developed (Call it the F-35D) for the USMC and/or the USN it would likely be a modified F-35B forward fuselage (Lift-fan replaced by a second seat) attached to an F-35C (Centre and aft-fuselage plus wings, tailplane and landing gear) and be deployed on a regular carrier. If such a version was developed for the USAF I image the modified -B forward fuselage would be mounted on an F-35A airframe.

 

[kitnut617]

Are you not confusing the TF-102 with the TF-106?

D'oh! Yes, you are right --- but like Greg says, another thread, another forum ----

 

[NMaude]

Are you not confusing the TF-102 with the TF-106?

The TF-106 was called the F-106B as unlike the TF-102A it had the same combat capabilities as the F-106A.

 

[rooster]

I'm wondering if and when a two-seat version is going to be developed?

It's never going to be.

Don't be so sure as it might still happen. I remember reading a USMC paper concerning the need for a two-seat F-35 based on their experience with the F/A-18 Hornet and a two-seater could be made by modifying the F-35B so there's a second seat instead of the lift-fan.

So the USMC, the very reason the F35B exists (which is probably the single biggest problem source for the airframe), are dropping STOVL requirements?

There are lots of papers published..... a Paper is just that and not even worth the paper it's printed in