• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

fightingirish

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
2,261
Reaction score
456
I have read in a few sources that Block 40 F-22As would have an "advanced helmet mounted display"
On this episode, the retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Terry “Stretch” Scott describes the Raptor’s amazing features, weapons, performance, and more.
He also helps answer a question on why the F-22A does not have an advanced helmet mounted display (HMD). One reason other than budget just for the insertion of the HMD is that under the slim canopy of a F-22A the pilot has less room to move his head with an HMD safely around. IMHO, when I see the pictures of a F-22, I can't really believe it.
If the USAF really wanted a HMD for the F-22A or for a "F-22C", a new canopy would have been to be designed and tested before, which would have driven up the costs more. So the USAF gave the HMD to the teen-fighters, which really needed them.

Source/Link: https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/episodes/061-f-22-raptor/

YouTube:
Code:
https://youtu.be/AguVV7SH9eY?t=3540
 

bring_it_on

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
2,128
Reaction score
148
The HMDCS (now Pilot Systems) was supposed to select an HMD solution in FY19 and take it through a systems level PDR. FY20 would mark the EMD phase of the program with the HMDCS being added to the Block 30/35 Raptor fleet.
 

icyplanetnhc

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
118
Reaction score
29
Website
aiaa.seas.ucla.edu
The F-22's canopy is considerably more tapered than most other fighter canopies for stealth purposes, and I think the polycarbonate material is also thicker as well since it doesn't have a frame and has to endure sustained supersonic flight. Furthermore, the first generation of JHMCS visors did protrude forward from the helmet a fair bit since it's a bolt on addition. Maybe the JHMCS II is a bit less bulky and can fit better, but the best solution would be to have a display system that's incorporated into the base helmet design from the beginning. That's a much more expensive option, however.
 
Last edited:

fredymac

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
1,983
Reaction score
489
F-22 display at Dubai Air Show. Left hand flat spin reversing to right hand flat spin at 3:50 mark. Good camera view of tight back flip at 5:40 mark. Extended vertical pause and back slide at 7:22.

 

TAOG

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
57
Reaction score
60
As a part of the F-22 Capability Pipeline and through Section 804 Middle Tier Acquisition authority, Sensor Enhancements provides improved sensor capabilities to Block 30/35 F-22 aircraft to maintain air dominance and preserve first shot, first kill capability. Funding includes 143 kits, installation, and spares.

Technology development and demonstration efforts continue for Sensor Enhancements. Enabling Group A kits purchased in FY 2020 to deliver in Q4 FY 2021, while Sensor Enhancements Group B development will mature through FY 2021 culminating in a flight test demonstration late in the FY. A subsequent production decision for Group B hardware will occur in FY 2021.

Volume 2-177 to 2-179



--------------------------------------------------

The average price for the B kit is ~12 M, so expensive. It seems like the AESA upgrade, maybe replace the GaAs with GaN?
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
11,213
Reaction score
1,488
Not going to be nearly enough though, by a long shot.
 

Desertfox

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
220
Reaction score
74
At this point a clean-sheet design using F119/F135 and the F-35 avionics and sensor suites, would probably be cheaper than restarting the F-22 line.
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
11,213
Reaction score
1,488
Given the on-going difficulties with the F-35's avionics, it probably would not be a good idea to use them in a new design.
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,210
Reaction score
830
The F15 became the air superiority fighter of Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia. If F22 had been allowed for sale to them it might still have been in production.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,040
Reaction score
1,079
The F15 became the air superiority fighter of Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia. If F22 had been allowed for sale to them it might still have been in production.
I think probably Israel, Japan, and the UK are the only ones I'd have felt comfortable with owning F-22. (And I'm sort of on the fence with Japan given their history of giving information to Russia.)
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,210
Reaction score
830
The US agreed with sferrin. But even an Israeli buy would have helped. UK had Typhoon and F22 would have been too costly given the post Cold War threat in the 90s. I think Japan could have been risked given its threats fro Rus PRC and NK
 

kaiserd

I really should change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2013
Messages
981
Reaction score
302
The F15 became the air superiority fighter of Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia. If F22 had been allowed for sale to them it might still have been in production.
I think probably Israel, Japan, and the UK are the only ones I'd have felt comfortable with owning F-22. (And I'm sort of on the fence with Japan given their history of giving information to Russia.)
I’m sure the Japanese are disgusted, and the Canadian’s livid at not even being mentioned.
Or perhaps they would be completely indifferent to what you would have “felt comfortable with”....
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,210
Reaction score
830
I did not include Canada or Australia in my list for the same reason- they didnt get F15s - like the UK come to that.
Only the Israelis and the Japanese have the money or need to afford F22s. I threw Saudi into the mix for the same reason it got F15- Washington and Riyadh have common enemies
 

icyplanetnhc

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
118
Reaction score
29
Website
aiaa.seas.ucla.edu
Interesting set of pictures of F-22s returning from a Middle East deployment.


I think this is the first time that I've noticed that the 600 gal external tanks are actually toed in slightly (in stark contrast to the F/A-18E/F pylons...). I suppose this may have the benefit of reducing drag in supersonic flight due to conical flow.

https://flic.kr/p/2gkJHY5
 
Last edited:

BDF

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
108
Reaction score
11
Went down the rabbit hole on a google excursion and came across a website that sells desktop avionic trainers. They had one for the F-22. It represents unclassified symbology and displays but I've see these displays before in the cockpit trainer Lockheed used to give demonstrations to media etc. Anyway I was wondering if anyone knew what the symbol is on the PMFD shown by the orange arrow? I'm assuming its the radar footprint but it seems strange to me that the wider coverage portion stops at the 20nm ring then a much longer footprint that extends out to what appears to be +/- 10 off of centerline out to . I believe that AESA radars have reduced performance the further off boresight you get, especially as you approach scan limits. This strikes me as a drastic drop. I've also attached an interesting concept for SAR mapping image. Note that on this one the PMFD in the middle has two green football shapes emanated off to the sides of the radar footprint. Any ideas on what those are?

website where I found these: http://www.zedasoft.com/products/f22.jsp


F-22 PMFD.jpg
f22.jpg
f22_2.jpg
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,322
Reaction score
370
Is it a realistic idea to adapt the F-22 airframe to the F-35 systems and modern engines with the radar absorbing coatings etc to produce a sidekick aircraft with complementary abilities? Obviously they have different roles and capabilities so could the hybrid be a useful addition to the fleet instead of modernising 4th gen aircraft while hoping they can do the job? I know this is as old as the hills but with all the talk of F-15X and F-16 that I thought I would see if I could get a single answer or just differentiated opinion. Rock on.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,621
Reaction score
422
@BDF : IMOHO the radar is in TWS mode* and the larger cone in the 20 first nm reflects enhanced capabilities to keep your SA level. TWS have traditionally a narrow scan band (steerable) that is here markedly alleviated by this increase coverage cone (proximity awareness).


*TWS: Track While Scan
 

icyplanetnhc

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
118
Reaction score
29
Website
aiaa.seas.ucla.edu
Is it a realistic idea to adapt the F-22 airframe to the F-35 systems and modern engines with the radar absorbing coatings etc to produce a sidekick aircraft with complementary abilities? Obviously they have different roles and capabilities so could the hybrid be a useful addition to the fleet instead of modernising 4th gen aircraft while hoping they can do the job? I know this is as old as the hills but with all the talk of F-15X and F-16 that I thought I would see if I could get a single answer or just differentiated opinion. Rock on.
When it comes to adapting the F-22 airframe with F-35-like systems, the technical feasibility shouldn't in question, although you may need to add more electrical power generation. In fact, I believe that a mid-life upgrade in the 2020s is aiming to adapt a lot of the F-35's additional air-to-air capabilities into the F-22, such as DAS, cockpit upgrade, hardware refresh, sensor enhancements (some of this is being funded in FY2021, I think), etc. If you're talking about producing upgraded F-22 aircraft, I think the main problem is cost and schedule, since the production line is gone so any new F-22s production restart would need some pretty substantial non-recurring costs, on the order of $10 billion over nearly a decade. I think the USAF would rather invest those funds on a fresh NGAD design that would offer far greater capabilities for the money. It's a shame that we don't have more F-22s, but that is well behind us now.

The entire reason for buying the F-15EX is to rapidly get more fighter aircraft for the USAF as the F-15C fleet is nearing the end of its structural life, and relatively affordably since the production line is still active from export orders (Saudi Arabia and Qatar). Although, I have to admit that the justification is a bit shaky given that the apparent unit cost of the F-15EX doesn't seem to be particularly different from an F-35A, but I suppose it can fulfill a different set of missions or perhaps niche roles; USAF and Israeli Air Force at least found it compelling enough. I suspect that industrial considerations to support Boeing's St. Louis division might also be a motivating factor.
 
Last edited:

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,322
Reaction score
370
Somewhere in this thread or the F3 thread is a comment that the tooling is still extant in storage and if the Japanese are going to go for the hybrid F22/35 it may just make enough financial sense to see of the enhanced gen 4 aircraft. Might just end up with a better aircraft.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,621
Reaction score
422
The representation we were given to see point to a larger design that no traditional F-22 airframe is going to cover.
Then we can discuss about the longer range versions proposed by LM. But since none were built to my knowledge, the cost of re-opening the 22 line is not relevant to the discussion anymore (although the variants I am talking about were re-using F-22's fuselage sections).
 

BDF

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
108
Reaction score
11
@BDF : IMOHO the radar is in TWS mode* and the larger cone in the 20 first nm reflects enhanced capabilities to keep your SA level. TWS have traditionally a narrow scan band (steerable) that is here markedly alleviated by this increase coverage cone (proximity awareness).


*TWS: Track While Scan
Hmmmm not sure that makes sense. AESA radars can scan the entire field of view quickly and interleave modes as they operate. BTW- my memory failed me, it's AESA's beam width that increases as it approaches scan limits, not so much as power drop. So a TWS limited scan volume doesn't make sense. For mechanical radars, you limit scan volumes to increase update rates for accurate target tracking and weapons support but AESAs don't have that limitation. In fact they don't even scan in a traditional raster type scan that mechanical arrays do, instead employing pseudo-random scan patterns.

It does make sense that high priority target mode (HPT) would include targets closer to the aircraft as those are the most threatening but it doesn't to me make much sense to demark that scan volume at such a short range. I could see the longer range scan cone (for lack of a better phrase) representing some sort of long range search volume. In any case whatever that display represents I'm sure doesn't represent the real capability.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,040
Reaction score
1,079
Interesting set of pictures of F-22s returning from a Middle East deployment.


I think this is the first time that I've noticed that the 600 gal external tanks are actually toed in slightly (in stark contrast to the F/A-18E/F pylons...). I suppose this may have the benefit of reducing drag in supersonic flight due to conical flow.

https://flic.kr/p/2gkJHY5
I think it may be more a result of perspective.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,040
Reaction score
1,079
The representation we were given to see point to a larger design that no traditional F-22 airframe is going to cover.
Then we can discuss about the longer range versions proposed by LM. But since none were built to my knowledge, the cost of re-opening the 22 line is not relevant to the discussion anymore (although the variants I am talking about were re-using F-22's fuselage sections).
My favorite was always FB-22-1
fb-22_p02_1_0001_zps689a872d.jpg
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,322
Reaction score
370
Bloody marvelous. Thank you.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
121
The representation we were given to see point to a larger design that no traditional F-22 airframe is going to cover.
Then we can discuss about the longer range versions proposed by LM. But since none were built to my knowledge, the cost of re-opening the 22 line is not relevant to the discussion anymore (although the variants I am talking about were re-using F-22's fuselage sections).
My favorite was always FB-22-1
View attachment 628523
If 6th G is going to be another decde of PPT we had better get back on the F22,
 

Josh_TN

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
231
Reaction score
99
Is it a realistic idea to adapt the F-22 airframe to the F-35 systems and modern engines with the radar absorbing coatings etc to produce a sidekick aircraft with complementary abilities? Obviously they have different roles and capabilities so could the hybrid be a useful addition to the fleet instead of modernising 4th gen aircraft while hoping they can do the job? I know this is as old as the hills but with all the talk of F-15X and F-16 that I thought I would see if I could get a single answer or just differentiated opinion. Rock on.
When it comes to adapting the F-22 airframe with F-35-like systems, the technical feasibility shouldn't in question, although you may need to add more electrical power generation. In fact, I believe that a mid-life upgrade in the 2020s is aiming to adapt a lot of the F-35's additional air-to-air capabilities into the F-22, such as DAS, cockpit upgrade, hardware refresh, sensor enhancements (some of this is being funded in FY2021, I think), etc. If you're talking about producing upgraded F-22 aircraft, I think the main problem is cost and schedule, since the production line is gone so any new F-22s production restart would need some pretty substantial non-recurring costs, on the order of $10 billion over nearly a decade. I think the USAF would rather invest those funds on a fresh NGAD design that would offer far greater capabilities for the money. It's a shame that we don't have more F-22s, but that is well behind us now.

The entire reason for buying the F-15EX is to rapidly get more fighter aircraft for the USAF as the F-15C fleet is nearing the end of its structural life, and relatively affordably since the production line is still active from export orders (Saudi Arabia and Qatar). Although, I have to admit that the justification is a bit shaky given that the apparent unit cost of the F-15EX doesn't seem to be particularly different from an F-35A, but I suppose it can fulfill a different set of missions or perhaps niche roles; USAF and Israeli Air Force at least found it compelling enough. I suspect that industrial considerations to support Boeing's St. Louis division might also be a motivating factor.
I think the main motivation for F-15 over F-35 is that it is an entirely different line. The F-35 line is quite spoken for; if you want more aircraft you have to go somewhere else. Additionally I think there is a desire to have a two engined heavyweight fighter than potentially can lug around a large hypersonic piece of ordnance on the center station. The F-15 likely has a larger war load and more known tolerances for outsided ordnance than other craft.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
121
An article in AW&ST this week claimed LM and the JPO confirmed 35s will replace 15Es by 2035. Es currently number 228. That is not a one to one replacement by any means. A mix of 15EXs and new 22s would sure be the better way not to lose payload delivery capacity much like the 21 would reduce payload delivery capacity w/ the potential hasty but necessary retirement of many of the Bones.
 

In_A_Dream

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
136
Reaction score
36
If the US wanted to re-open the Raptor production line because Congress felt the threat from China was significant enough, they would. Right now, that specific threat isn't large enough, which means they think they can get a good 6th gen platform fielded in time to stay a generation ahead of the Chinese.
 

TAOG

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
57
Reaction score
60
An article in AW&ST this week claimed LM and the JPO confirmed 35s will replace 15Es by 2035. Es currently number 228. That is not a one to one replacement by any means. A mix of 15EXs and new 22s would sure be the better way not to lose payload delivery capacity much like the 21 would reduce payload delivery capacity w/ the potential hasty but necessary retirement of many of the Bones.
Can you provide the AW&ST article link? Thx
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
11,213
Reaction score
1,488
If the US wanted to re-open the Raptor production line because Congress felt the threat from China was significant enough, they would.
Unfortunately it's not that simple. For example, much of the equipment and materials set aside for such a contingency was (illegally) used by Lockheed Martin over the years to prop up F-35 production.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
121
An article in AW&ST this week claimed LM and the JPO confirmed 35s will replace 15Es by 2035. Es currently number 228. That is not a one to one replacement by any means. A mix of 15EXs and new 22s would sure be the better way not to lose payload delivery capacity much like the 21 would reduce payload delivery capacity w/ the potential hasty but necessary retirement of many of the Bones.
Can you provide the AW&ST article link? Thx
As USAF Feet Plans Evolve, can the F-35A progrm survive intact. Mar 23 Apr 5 AWST p38
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
121
If the US wanted to re-open the Raptor production line because Congress felt the threat from China was significant enough, they would. Right now, that specific threat isn't large enough, which means they think they can get a good 6th gen platform fielded in time to stay a generation ahead of the Chinese.
IMHO you are just factually incorrect about the PLAAF.
 

critter

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
1
Reaction score
2
I worked on and helped install the Circulator Automated Assembly and Test System referred to here.
 

In_A_Dream

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
136
Reaction score
36
IMHO you are just factually incorrect about the PLAAF.
From my perspective, I haven't seen anything that points to the J-20 being in FRP and there isn't anything available in the PLAAF inventory to significantly challenge our F-22s. On an existential level, yes the CCP is America's largest threat (and vice versa) and I'm by no means downplaying their military/industrial potential but specifically in regards to an Air Dominance fighter, the threat isn't there yet to justify a 5th gen (new or updated F-22 model) stop gap in Air Dominance. Once we see FRP begin for the J-20, I think Congress will consider options for the future.
 

BDF

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
108
Reaction score
11
Is there any program of record for the active duty Raptors to get these updates? Glad to see that IRST and HMD are tops of the list.
 
Top