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Lazarov Early Projects

hesham

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Hi,

the early projects to this designer is such a mystery,the LAZ-1,
LAZ-2 and LAZ-3 were well known aircraft and all of them were
built,but I knew from a long time that the LAZ-5 was a single
seat fighter project,yesterday I found this info about LAZ-4,
it is also a single seat fighter but I don't know if it was only a
project or actually built ?.

The source;

[/URL]
 
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Apophenia

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Thanks as always Hesham.

In 1941, Lazarov was responsible for final design on the proposed DAR-11 Lyastovitsa ('Swallow'), the planned (but ultimately unbuilt) licenced Avia B.135. Since Lazarov applied his own designations to designs he worked on (including those based on foreign designs), I'm wondering if his DAR-11 work might explain either of these single-engined fighter projects?

[BTW: what was the "well-known" LAZ-2? :)]
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Apophenia,

and the LAZ-2 was DAR-6.
 

Apophenia

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hesham said:
... LAZ-2 was DAR-6.
Thanks Hesham. I'm compiling DAR and Laz designation lists. DAR is complete (I think) but, for Lazarov, I was stumped for the Laz-2, Laz-5, and Laz-13.

Some online sources list the DAR-6 listed as the Laz-1. Is it possible that Laz-1 refers to the original DAR-6(I) design and Laz-2 to the DAR-6(II) -- or even the DAR-6A ???
 

hesham

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My dear Adrien,


it's very strange comment,that's because in A-Z magazine,they mention LAZ-2
and LAZ-3,also in anther Bulgarian site,they wrote that exactly; LAZ-5 was single
seat fighter project,of course by Bulgarian language,but I don't remember this
site now.
 

Jemiba

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hesham said:
it's very strange comment,that's because in A-Z magazine,they mention LAZ-2
and LAZ-3...
This seems to be one of those quite typical cases, where information on the internet
probably are not as well researched, as they should be ! I've absolutely no knowledge
about Bulgarian aircraft, but as Adrien pointed to an author, who obviously has worked
on that theme, this information seems more trustable to me, than an unknown site.
Additionally it can be found often, that gaps in designation systems are filled by
"researchers" and those designations appointed to designs. Unfortuantely, often an
addendum like "perhaps", "maybe" or "could have been" was forgotten, so turning a
pure guess into an alleged certainty ! ::)
 

hesham

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My dear Jemiba,


of course I am sure about that Bulgarian site which mentioned LAZ-5 as a fighter
project,but you know many sites was disappeared from Internet,I make a big
searching,but I couldn't find it again,it means they delete that site,aslo we can't
ignore A-Z magazine,which wrote about LAZ-2 and LAZ-3,but the early six
designs was made for anther company,and when he opened his own company
he started with LAZ-7.


So we can say,the first six numbers,we can all them Model or No 1 up to 6.
 

Jemiba

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hesham said:
...which wrote about LAZ-2 and LAZ-3,but the early six designs was made for another
company,and when he opened his own company he started with LAZ-7.
That may be the answer ! He actually designed six aircraft before the LAZ-7, but as they
were built or at least planned for other companies, they never wore an LAZ designation.
Knowledge of those seven designs nevertheless makes it seem plausible to designate them
all as "LAZ-...". Not everything, that is somewhat logical is correct !
My point always is, to take sources from the internet with a grain of salt. Often they don't
mention their sources (that's why we are insisting here on mentioning the original source !)
and as those sites may be short lived only, it often isn't possible to check them again after
a while. And all that remains then, are uncertain citations, that nevertheless often are
regarded as the "foundation of a new truth" ... ::)
The internet is a great medium, but it has its dangers .
 

c460

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Hi Hesham and Jens,
I will post an extract from the text by Ivan Borislavov: the original text in Bulgarian, the machine translation by Google, and my own attempt at making this machine translation more readable.
As a disclaimer, I don't read Bulgarian, other that knowing or guessing a few words here and there. But I think that the machine translation clearly shows the rough meaning. Obviously it would be nice to get confirmation from a native Bulgarian speaker.

Here is the original Bulgarian text, taken from http://history.rodenkrai.com/new/bylgarska_aviaciq/prof._inj._cvetan_lazarov_i_bylgarskoto_samoletostroene_ii_chast/vsichki_stranici.html
Настъпва моментът първият пропотип да отлети за Белград. Но на един от конструкторите, Даньо Йотов, все му се струва, че на самолета външно нещо му липсва. Виждал е на снимки по бордовете на чуждестранни самолети изписани и изрисувани какви ли не работи и на него му хрумва идея.

Ето какво си спомня г-н Йотов след повече от 50 години:

"...След последните контролни полети от двамата югославски летци, самолетът трябваше да отлети за Белград. Единственото, което напомняше, че самолетът е произведен в България, бе емблемата на ДСФ-Ловеч на вертикалния стабилизатор. Предпоследния следобед поднесох на инж. Лазаров лист паус и го помолих за един едър "министерски подпис". Той попита за какво ми е, аз му казах: "за хубава идея" и той едро се разписа на листа. Увеличих подписа на проекционния апарат върху кадастрон, изрязах буквите и се получи бояджийски шаблон. Вечерта, когато самолетът бе прибран в хангара, отидохме с бояджията Мончо с преносимия компресор и пистолета при машината. През шаблона пръснахме с червена боя саморъчния подпис на конструктора върху моторните обтекателни ламарини. Но нещо липсваше! Да, липсваше годината на конструирането, 1947-а. И добавихме една седмица, малко разкривена, както я пишеше Лазаров. Така се получи Лаз-7...
На другия ден, като изкараха самолета от хангара, отидохме с инж. Лазаров и с Каратодоров да се снимаме за спомен пред машината. Като стигнахме до самолета, инж. Лазаров видя нашата "самодейност" и каза: "Йотов, значи ето за какво ти трябваше моят подпис? Но моля те, сполучливо, красиво, обаче много нескромно!"
Само че вече беше късно да се смива засъхналата нитроцелулозна боя, което би довело до пребоядисване на целия нос на самолета. И прототипът "Лястовица" отлетя за Югославия, кръстен Лаз-7."

Така кръстник на "Лаз"-а е един от конструкторите му и съратник на инж. Лазаров, авиоконструкторът Даньо Йотов. Снимките с надписа Лаз-7 остават и ВВС харесва това име за самолета. Когато започва серийното производство, решено е машината да бъде приета на въоръжение като Лаз-7.

Ще го последват пътническият четириместен Лаз-8, модернизацията, осъществена от млад заводски колектив и приета на въоръжение от ВВС като Лаз-7М, едноместният самолет за тренировка на летци изтребители във фигурен пилотаж, останал само като прототип Лаз-12. След години някои авиационни "историци" започнаха ретроспективно за "Лазаруват" и другите конструкции на инж. Лазаров, самолетите от поредицата ДАР (ДАР-6/Лаз-1, ДАР-6А/Лаз-2, ДАР-9/Лаз-3, ДАР-10А/Лаз-4, ДАР-10Ф/Лаз-5), произвеждани през 1932-1941 г. в Божурище. Това е некоректно, защото първият самолет, носещ името "Лаз" е Лаз-7. И никой от "кръстниците пост фактум" не се е замислил къде при това се дяна Лаз-6?...
Here is a machine translation by Google:
The moment the first propotip flying to Belgrade. But one of the designers, Danyo Yotov, there seems to him that the aircraft exterior missing something. Is seen photos by boards of foreign aircraft painted and painted all sorts of work and Heyerdahl idea.

Here's what you remember Mr. Yotov after more than 50 years:

"... After the last flight control of the two Yugoslav pilots, the plane had to fly to Belgrade. The only thing reminded that the aircraft was manufactured in Bulgaria, was the emblem of the dry film thickness-Lovech of the vertical stabilizer. Penultimate afternoon I filled eng. Lazarov sheet tracing paper and asked him for a big "ministerial signature." He asked what I was, I told him, "for a good idea" and he scored a wholesale list. increased the signature of the projector on kadastron cut letters and get painting pattern. in the evening, when the plane was picked up in the hangar, we went with the painter Moncho with portable compressor and gun in the machine. in the template splattered with red paint handwritten signature of the constructor on motor fairing plates. But something was missing! Yes, the missing years of construction, 1947 -a. And we added a week a little distorted, as he wrote Lazarov. So get Laz-7 ...
The next day, when they had airplane hangar went with eng. Lazarov and Karatodorov to shoot for a memorial before the machine. As we reached the plane, eng. Lazarov see our "amateur" and said, "Yotov, then here's what you had my signature? But please, successful, beautiful, very immodest!"
Only that it was too late to wash down the dried nitrocellulose paint, which would lead to repainting the entire nose of the aircraft. And the prototype "Swallow" flew to Yugoslavia, named Laz-7. "

So godfather "Laz" -a one of its constructors and associate of eng. Lazarov aviokonstruktorat Danyo Yotov. Photos with caption Laz-7 remain BBC love that name for the plane. When the series begins, the machine is determined to be the armory as Laz-7.

Will follow four-passenger Laz-8 modernization carried out by a young factory team and the armory by the BBC as Laz-7M, microlight aircraft to train fighter pilots in aerobatic, remained only as a prototype Laz-12. After some years of aviation "historians" began retrospective of "Lazaruvane" and other structures eng. Lazarov, the planes of the series DAR (DAR-6 / Laz-1, DAR-6A / Laz-2 DAR-9 / Laz-3 DAR-10A / Laz-4 DAR-10F / Laz-5) produced in 1932-1941, at Bozhurishte. This is incorrect because the first plane, named "Laz" is Laz-7. And none of the "godfathers post factum" has not considered where I go in this Laz 6? ...
Here is my own quick attempt at polishing the machine translation:
It was the moment when the first prototype would have to fly to Belgrade. But one of the designers, Danyo Yotov, thought that something was missing to the external aspect of the aircraft. Seeing pictures of foreign aircraft with all sorts of paintings, he had an idea.

After more than 50 years, Mr. Yotov remembers:

"... After the last flight test by the two Yugoslav pilots, the plane had to fly to Belgrade. The only thing reminding that the aircraft was manufactured in Bulgaria, was the emblem of DSF-Lovech of the vertical stabilizer. Two days before the departure, in the afternoon, I asked eng. Lazaov a big "ministerial signature". He asked what it was for, I told him it was "for a good idea". Then I enlarged the signature with a projector and cut the letters for a painting mask. In the evening, when the plane was in the hangar, we went to the aircraft with the painter Moncho with a portable compressor and paint gun. Using the template, the handwritten signature of the constructor was filled with red paint on the engine cowlings. But something was missing! Yes, the year of construction, 1947. And we added it a little distorted, as he wrote Lazarov. So we got Laz-7 ...

The next day, when we went to the hangar with eng. Lazarov and Karatodorov to shoot a picture in front of the machine. As we reached the plane, eng. Lazarov see our job and said, "Yotov, then this is what you used my signature for? Please, this is beautiful but very immodest!" But it was too late to wash down the dried nitrocellulose paint, which would lead to repainting the entire nose of the aircraft. And the prototype "Swallow" flew to Yugoslavia, named Laz-7."

So the godfather (i.e. the one who gave the name) of the Laz was Danyo Yotov, one of its constructors and associate of eng. Lazarov. Photos showing the name Laz-7 remained, and the VVS used that name for the plane. When the series began, the machine was used by the air forces as the Laz-7.

Will follow the Laz-8, a four-passenger aircraft, the Laz-7M, a modernization carried out by a young factory team and the VVS armed forces, and the Laz-12, a light aircraft to train fighter pilots in aerobatics, which remained a prototype only. After some years, aviation "historians" began a retrospective of other "Lazarov" aircraft by eng. Lazarov, with the planes of the DAR series (DAR-6 / Laz-1, DAR-6A / Laz-2 DAR-9 / Laz-3 DAR-10A / Laz-4 DAR-10F / Laz-5) produced in 1932-1941, at Bozhurishte. This is incorrect because the first plane, named "Laz" is Laz-7. And none of the "godfathers post factum" (i.e. those who will give a new name many years after the facts) has found what would be the Laz-6 ?...
You see, the author is unambiguous as to the non-existence of Laz aircraft before the Laz-7, and this is based on the first-hand testimony of the very person who invented the Laz-7 designation, from year 1947.
Adrien
 

Jemiba

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Thanks for your effort, Adrien !
It always seems to be tempting to fill gaps, maybe it's just human !
And I can imagine, that this book by Ivan Borislavov wasn't known
to many historians, who just relied on conclusions then.
We can be glad, that those errors got corrected in the end now !
 

bigvlada

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I had Macedonian and Slovenian language as subjects for one year in primary school (they were official languages in Yugoslavia). Bulgarian is similar to Macedonian and in southern Serbia they speak a mix of all three :D .
I've mentioned the story about Laz 7 in Ikarus postww2 thread. The Bulgarians were invited to participate in Yugoslav's trainer aircraft competition and they sent the LAZ 7. Ikarus won that competition with his Aero 2b design. I'm not sure that i read this correctly, but it seems that Bulgarians wanted to buy the Aero 2 because they were not allowed to produce combat aircraft. The article mentions that LAZ 7 wasn't the first bulgarian plane in Yugoslav's inventory, they have got nine DAR 9 Siniger (Tit - yes, tit, breast :D ) and unknown number of KB-11B Fazan (pheasant) as war reparations. Never heard of the first one, but second one was in JNA's inventory as liasion plane.
DAR was Bulgarian state aircraft manufacturer, and these are their designs:
Aircraft Type/Quantity/Service Entry/Retirement/Origin
DAR U-1/Uzunov-1DAR U-1/Uzunov-1 (DFW C.Va) 7 1925 19?? Bulgaria
DAR DAR-1 Peperuda 12 1926 1940+ Bulgaria
DAR DAR-1A 8 1928 1940+ Bulgaria
DAR DAR-2 (Albatros C.III) 12 1926 1934+ Bulgaria
DAR DAR-3(I) 1 1928 Feb 1934 Bulgaria
DAR DAR-3(I.bis) 1 1929 19?? Bulgaria
DAR DAR-3 Garvan I 6 1936 1940+ Bulgaria
DAR DAR-3 Garvan II 6 1937 194? Bulgaria
DAR DAR-3 Garvan III 12 1939 1945 Bulgaria
DAR DAR-5 Brambar prototype 1 1930 19?? Bulgaria
DAR DAR-6 prototype I 1 1932 1937 Bulgaria
DAR DAR-6 prototype II 1 1937 19?? Bulgaria
DAR DAR-6A prototype 1 1938 19?? Bulgaria
DAR DAR-7 SS.1 1 1935 19?? Bulgaria
DAR DAR-8 Slavey 12 1937 1942+ Bulgaria
DAR DAR-9 Siniger 42 1940 1949+ Bulgaria
DAR DAR-10A Bekas 1 July 1941 Oct 1942 Bulgaria
DAR DAR-10F Bekas 1 1945 1949 Bulgaria
more info on the these designs:
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/bulgaria/af/types/dar.htm#U-1
Air Power of the Kingdom of Bulgaria. (Parts 1-4) by Dimitar Nedialkov
 

Maveric

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Nice list bigvlada, but you forget the DAR.4 ;)
 

bigvlada

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There wasn't a DAR 4 design, according to that list. Haven't read the book so I can't be sure.
 

Maveric

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I have the D.A.R. 4 from an old "Flugzeug"-article...
 

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