Once again, thank you very much for sharing. Is there any chance to see a Schlachtschiff H twin 3,7 cm Flak armoured turret more closely?
 
Presenting my evidence that the 105mm Flak 38 is actually the mysterious 10.5cm/52 SK C/36.

This is what started it:
1658100417072.png
1658100423845.png

From there, I decided to take a look at what we have between the guns.

Construction year: 1936
Barrel length: 52 caliber
Bore: 105mm.
Produced: 4,200, kept mostly within the Reich's borders.

Remember that "C/XX" is construction year, meaning the gun has been produced. With so many "useless" and "bulky" land-based 105mm just sitting around, it's not hard to picture that these 4200 guns could find another home.
Honestly, it's the only candidate that even comes close to matching.
1658100719756.png
Biggest mystery now is the mount. I'd like to know the characteristics of it someday.


In another interesting plot twist, I found that the 3cm guns on Ftb 1944 aren't actually MK 303 models, but MK 103's. I had at first thought they were rather long-looking and came to the conclusion that they were most likely the longer MK 303, but after carefully measuring I've come to see that the measurements are almost 1:1 to the 3cm/45 MK 103.
Apologies, this was incorrect. They are 3cm/73 MK 303 (Br) guns.
1658100885081.png
This is corroborated in a source: (Said source is INCORRECT, disproven via primary document.)
1658100914527.png





Still wondering how brutal this little thing could have been if they'd been replaced with 3cm/45 Flakvierlings. Just a 334 kg increase using 30mm on the same Flakvierling chassis - ammo notwithstanding.
edit:^this would have still been cool as hell.
 
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So after some re-review, I've come across a slight mistake...

I had said a few days ago that the Flottentorpedoboot 1944 was to carry the 3cm/45 MK 103 in twins...but this does not appear to be quite right. Taking a look at the lengths again, it appears that I misread. It wasn't 2.5m o/a...it was 3m. Well, more closely 3.1m. The 3cm MK 103 is nowhere near this length - but the 3cm MK 303 is, whether it be 3 or 3.1m (3m = Krieghoff / 3.1m = Brno revision).
What I told an associate of mine:
"It's because [the Ftb 1944 plan] is an early 1944 drawing. The 3cm MK 303 was prospective - design work was ongoing for the weapon at this time and there was even still competition from Rheinmetall-Borsig and Mauser with their "M44" designs. It wasn't until sometime (probably in late) 1943 that the MK 303 project from Krieghoff-Waffenfabrik was even transferred to the Czech company Zbrojovka Brno - or "Brno" for short. There it was slightly lengthened...by 200mm. (199mm to be exact). Thus gave birth to the 3145mm 3cm MK 303(Br).
Beforehand it was simply the MK 303, featuring an overall length of 2946mm...very close to 3m. Almost exactly 3m.
The 3cm MK 303(Br) didn't see production until later in 1944, about mid-1944."
Just speculation, but it makes some sense.

On a slightly related note I had the measures done for Type 1945's 3cm AA battery and they match. 3m. So she is also equipped with MK 303's - though that should be no surprise by 1945. MK 103 isn't putting up much competition to it.

I'm really curious about their mount. I read somewhere that there was a 3cm MK 303 or M44 mount for S-Boote being designed or prototyped and weighing nearly 700 kg, though I do not know if this is for a twin (judging by the weight, most likely) or even if they're the same mounts intended for the Ftb 1944/Type 1945. I really wanna see a plan for it.

I had originally thought that it would have made a sort of unique sense for Ftb 1944 to have carried 3cm/45's given that the base weapon had been in service since 1942 and had seen some limited service in the KM aboard S-Boats. Perhaps it could have been an interim 3cm weapon until the 3cm MK 303 could reach production, I thought, but in hindsight...it really doesn't make a lot of sense other than that it would have made a pretty damn good lightweight alternative to the larger, heavier MK 303, and befitting the rather light construction of the Ftb 1944.
The thing didn't even really see service as a true AA weapon until 1945, and by then of course it was a little ahead of the design period of the Ftb 1944, unlike the MK 303.
 
Hi. I've been a lurker here for quite a long time.

I'm looking for a better resolution version of this drawing of Kreuzer-P.

The biggest problem with this one is that you can't read the text.

David R. Wells
 

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Hi. I've been a lurker here for quite a long time.

I'm looking for a better resolution version of this drawing of Kreuzer-P.

The biggest problem with this one is that you can't read the text.

David R. Wells
Hello,

I'd love to help. I can't promise I'll be able to find a higher resolution image of what you've posted, but I can try and see what I have.
 
Hi. I've been a lurker here for quite a long time.

I'm looking for a better resolution version of this drawing of Kreuzer-P.

The biggest problem with this one is that you can't read the text.

David R. Wells
Hello,

I'd love to help. I can't promise I'll be able to find a higher resolution image of what you've posted, but I can try and see what I have.
Many thanks for all of your help -- DRW
 
Hi. I've been a lurker here for quite a long time.

I'm looking for a better resolution version of this drawing of Kreuzer-P.

The biggest problem with this one is that you can't read the text.

David R. Wells
Hello,

I'd love to help. I can't promise I'll be able to find a higher resolution image of what you've posted, but I can try and see what I have.
Many thanks for all of your help -- DRW
I researched and poked around and unfortunately I cannot find anything with exception to this image, which is very similar to what you posted.
1659923720194.png
It's approximately similar.
I also have this, which might be helpful:

Finding information for the almost absurd amount of variation this design has is mind-numbing.


Oh, and there are two new Graf Spee images in the GS folder.
 
I researched and poked around and unfortunately I cannot find anything with exception to this image, which is very similar to what you posted.
View attachment 682234
It's approximately similar.
I also have this, which might be helpful:

Finding information for the almost absurd amount of variation this design has is mind-numbing.


Oh, and there are two new Graf Spee images in the GS folder.

Well, this is the well known A-V drawing. I believe this one is from Breyer's "Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer 1921-1997", pg 185. There is a similar one in Gröner's "German Warships 1815-1945 Volume One: Major Surface Vessels".

The drawing in Appendix F that I provided earlier is compelling because it is similar to the one in Breyer's "Battleships and Battlecruisers 1905-1970" (yes, that's the English translation) pg 305. Breyer says it is from late 1938.

The Appendix F version is much more detailed, and has some interesting differences. Breyer pretty admitted that his drawing was mostly from memory. Since the Appendix F version seems to be original, it is, to my mind, much more valuable. Unfortunately, the resolution of the image is not good enough for us to read the text.

David R. Wells
Kreuzer_P_Breyer.jpg
 
You mean Appendix L? its probably lost somewhere in the bunderarchiv, in the list of nameless scans and documents, i see what i can find on German and Russian forum sites.
Appendix L - P cruiser
Appendix M -???
Appendix N - KW45/50 battlecruiser.
 
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You mean Appendix L? its probably lost somewhere in the bunderarchiv, in the list of nameless scans and documents, i see what i can find on German and Russian forum sites.
Appendix L - P cruiser
Appendix M -???
Appendix N - KW45/50 battlecruiser.

Sorry, you are correct, Appendix L. I'd blame a "fat finger" error, but the keys are too far apart. :)
DRW
 
You mean Appendix L? its probably lost somewhere in the bunderarchiv, in the list of nameless scans and documents, i see what i can find on German and Russian forum sites.
Appendix L - P cruiser
Appendix M -???
Appendix N - KW45/50 battlecruiser.
I had forgotten that KW45/50 were in Appendix N. I have heard that KW45/50 were found in the US National Archives, so perhaps more P-class variant designs reside there as well, unfound by European historians?
 
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RM 20/2443 "Technische Zeichnung vom Kreuzer P 15.4.1939 – Maschinenanlage und Panzeranordnung, 1:200" (Techincal plan of P-class cruiser engine and machinery layout).

RM 20/1913 "Allgemeine Typenfragen für Schlachtschiffe, Panzerschiffe und Kreuzer" (General plans of battleship, armored ship and cruiser), since comments on marinearchiv.de said KW45/50 draft is likely in here.

RM 20/1912 "Neubauplan" (ship plans for Bismarck, plan-Z, H-class battleship, Dutch battleship/battlecruiser design, Prinz Eugen and other small crafts).

Also i founded M-class minesweeper. View attachment RM_20_2442.jpg
 
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"Dutch battleship/battlecruiser design"

Beyond the 1047? Do tell more......

Dave G
 
Given Sanglune read on Dutch admiralty wanting their own Bismarck? possible, or it just battlecruiser plans since in German they were refer as "battleship" (as in "Holland schlachtschiff typ").

Here's H-klasse armor scheme with alternative variant.
H-klasse protection alternative.jpg
 
RM 20/2443 "Technische Zeichnung vom Kreuzer P 15.4.1939 – Maschinenanlage und Panzeranordnung, 1:200" (Techincal plan of P-class cruiser engine and machinery layout).

RM 20/1913 "Allgemeine Typenfragen für Schlachtschiffe, Panzerschiffe und Kreuzer" (General plans of battleship, armored ship and cruiser), since comments on marinearchiv.de said KW45/50 draft is likely in here.

RM 20/1912 "Neubauplan" (ship plans for Bismarck, plan-Z, H-class battleship, Dutch battleship/battlecruiser design, Prinz Eugen and other small crafts).

Also i founded M-class minesweeper. View attachment 682441
I'll be seeing if I can get my hands on these sometime.
 
Writing this for later.

RM/20 Marinekommandoamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine --> RM/20 Inventory --> 1.12 Fleet Department (AV) --> 1.12.1 Shipbuilding Issues --> RM/20 1913 "General type questions for battleships, ironclads and cruisers 10 Feb - 11 Dec 1939 Contains ao :Contains ao: Type P cruiser; battleships "Scharnhorst", "Gneisenau", "Bismarck", "H" and "O" Cruiser "M"; baggage ships; Conversion of armored ships"

RM/20 Marinekommandoamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine --> RM/20 Inventory --> 1.12 Fleet Department (AV) --> 1.12.1 Shipbuilding Issues --> RM/20 1912 "new construction planMarch 30, 1939 - July 4, 1940 Contains, among other things: Lecture on battleship "Bismarck"; Z plan; battleship building; draft Dutch battleship; Treatment of new ships in the case of mobilization; battleship "H"; manning levels; armored motor boats; trawler; cruiser "Prinz Eugen"; Construction plan for new warships; submarine construction"

RM/20 Marinekommandoamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine --> RM/20 Inventory --> 1.12 Fleet Department (AV) --> 1.12.1 Shipbuilding Issues --> RM/20 2443 "Technical Drawings Ironclad Type "P" (9) 1939 Contains, among other things: Fol. 1: Technical drawing of the cruiser P 15.4.1939 - machinery and armor arrangement, 1:200; Fol. 2: Panzer Arrangementb Kreuzer "P", 1:100, March 1939; Fol. 3: A technical drawing of the battleship "F.- hull and artillery, 1939 Fol. 4: A technical drawing of the machinery and armor arrangement, 1:20, 1939 (draft), fol. 52; Fol. 5: Battleship type "P" .- Proposal AV with H-motors.- Main frame, 1:100, 1939 (fol. 53) Fol. Folio 7: Ironclad Type "P" - Armored deck thickness, 1:100, 1939 (Fol. 75) Folio 8: Ironclad Type "P" - Cross-sections in the area of the SA ammunition chambers, 1: Fol. 9: Sketch of the cruiser type "P" (draft 2), 1:250, 25.3.1939 (fol. 125);Sketch of cruiser type "P" 2 attachments to AV 806/39 Kds. (fol. 151) is missing

Additional Things:
RM/20 Marinekommandoamt der Reichsmarine und Kriegsmarine --> RM/20 Inventory --> 1.12 Fleet Department (AV) --> 1.12.2 Artillery Weapons Issues --> RM/20 1909 "Artillery Weapons QuestionsApr 1939 - Jul 1940Contains among others :contains among others:secrecy;cruiser type P;Main information about the guns on board (as of Jan. 1, 1939);heavy anti-aircraft guns on light vehicles;Dete systems for onboard use;basic questions of anti-aircraft armament;flak allocation;Allocation Dete plants;Final assessment cruiser "Blücher"
 
Yes, its a lot, looking forward when you have them, apparently the files are so big that have they to split out (with most P-class drafts put into /2443).
 
I'll do what I can to nab them.

In the meantime, I think that one of the previously-thought 28cm guns is actually 30.5cm for the Zenker 1928. Was doing a bit of poking and measuring.
1660536025845.png
This image is of the "28cm/55 C/26La (with Railcart)". It appears to have a 16.6m overall gun length. Divided by 283mm you get a caliber of 58.6. Divided by 305mm you get a caliber of 54.4.
1660536136830.png
This image is of the "28cm/55 C/27Lc2 (Elevator Hoist)". It appears t have a 15.45m overall gun length. Divided by 283mm you get a caliber of 54.6. Divided by 305mm you get a caliber of 50.65.

It had come to my attention a while ago that the 30.5cm guns intended for Zenker's battlecruiser design were to be of /55-caliber length.

I believe that the first image - the C/26La - is actually either the 305mm gun used for Zenker's battlecruiser or a slightly earlier predecessor. Given the shapes...I might be forced to go with the latter conclusion.
1660536777417.png
1660536957730.png
Close, but not the same.
I still maintain that it's a 305mm gun based on measurements, but what are y'all's thoughts on it?


Edit: No, it's not for Entwurf II/30 and VII/30, those turrets are of a much older design, it appears. (Very WWI 30.5cm SK L/50-esque)
 
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Is that drawing from Breyer? He might not had access to the turret drawings but rather a sketch of the BC and made his own extrapolation. Same happenned with his Japanese No.13 drawing.
 
Is further information available on operational parameters for the "Fohn" rockets and launcher sometimes fitted to later R-Boots?
 
Those turrets are likely intended for B1, B2 and C panzerschiffs, Zenker latter works, panzerschiff A i posted previously have similar gun-house shape like C/27 model.
 
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Is that drawing from Breyer? He might not had access to the turret drawings but rather a sketch of the BC and made his own extrapolation. Same happenned with his Japanese No.13 drawing.
That seems really odd. Breyer has the most information out of any source regarding the design, so it would only make sense that he has a sketch of the original design? If anyone would have the original design/sketch, chances are it would be him.
Those turrets are likely intended for B1, B2 and C panzerschiffs, Zenker latter works, panzerschiff A i posted previously have similar gun-house shape like C/27 model.
Always a possibility.
 

!! RM 20/1912 AND RM/20 2443 HAVE BEEN DIGITIZED !!

This is due to principally to someone I know on Discord named Magiaconatus, who has also contacted and requested documents from the Bundesarchiv - though their ventures are regarding Scharnhorst (/1912), and just-so-happened to have picked up /2443 along the way, doing so ironically around the same time that we sit here discussing about wanting it.
 
High speed battlecruiser project KW45 and KW50 at page 304-314, curious what "KW30" could have been had the project not die first (maybe 4 turret O-class but slower?).

I also noticed there are some recently? digitalized plans, will keep looking.
 
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High speed battlecruiser project KW45 and KW50 at page 304-314, curious what "KW30" could have been had the project not die first (maybe 4 turret O-class but slower?).

I also noticed there are some recently? digitalized plans, will keep looking.
Looking for KW-45 and KW-50 but can't find it. Can you provide a direct link?
 
Triple turret 20.3 plan in 1931, which has been digitalized, looks like C/25 turret on steroid.


Looking for KW-45 and KW-50 but can't find it. Can you provide a direct link?
Easy to miss it because long wall of texts.
That 203mm triple looks amazing. Wish we had such detaiĺ for the 1938 Krupp version.

KW30 is probably something akin to O-class, though it leaves me wondering if KW30 and O class are more similar than just sharing a theoretically similar Displacement. I'm starting to believe that KW30 evolved into the O-class and KW45 and KW50 are the overarching successors (O40/41/42 being the internal successor designs) or alternative designs.
 
From Wikipedia, but it goes to show what I mean:

"As part of the plan, design work on the P class was halted in mid-1939 in favor of the O class. Displacement was limited to 30,000 t (30,000 long tons) in the new designs so that the length of construction would be shortened from the normal four or more years that a battleship required, to an estimated three[5] to three and a half years.[6] Required characteristics for the battlecruisers was a displacement of 30,000 t (29,526 long tons), a main battery of six 380 mm (15 in) guns, a secondary battery of dual purpose guns, a top speed of 34 knots (63 km/h; 39 mph), a range of 15,000 nmi (28,000 km) at 19 knots (35 km/h; 22 mph), and enough armor to counter the 203 mm (8 in) guns of heavy cruisers.[7]"
This is likely to be our "30k ton lightweight" version of KW45 and 50, interest being revived in battlecruisers in 1938 and design work seriously beginning for them in 1939, same as described in the RM 20 text (January 1939).

I would like to add that, just because these designs come from a private shipyard, does not mean that they were not seriously considered. Spahkreuzer 38 - a class of 22 planned ships under the Z Plan, 1 laid down and several engine sets completed and more ordered, began its life as a Blohm and Voss alternative to the Type 1938A destroyer series and was taken in and subsequently modified.
 
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I was kinda hoping for it, but mostly P-class cruiser sketch and draft (in the separate RM/2443 files), pity since current existed KW45 picture have poor quality which make it difficult to track (the clue at bottom further right), at least give us a good reading how OKM want these ships to be, i head back to RM/6 sections do bit of reading.

Anyway, forgot that 15cm/L60 triple turret plan also digitalized, check it out.
 
I was kinda hoping for it, but mostly P-class cruiser sketch and draft (in the separate RM/2443 files), pity since current existed KW45 picture have poor quality which make it difficult to track (the clue at bottom further right), at least give us a good reading how OKM want these ships to be, i head back to RM/6 sections do bit of reading.

Anyway, forgot that 15cm/L60 triple turret plan also digitalized, check it out.
Do you know the archive number for the 15cm/60?
 

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