KRIEGSMARINE CENTRAL - KM Ship Plans/Discussion

_Sarcasticat_ said:
alexi said:
View attachment 661174

I have this piece here showing the proposed 45cm and 50cm in L/60 caliber in 1942, got from user named "Thoddy" from navweaps forums, i recalled Breyer said German proposed a numerous large gun with various caliber lengths.
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A 50cm gun...the 50.8cm, or an entirely different project?
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the 50,8 cm is just a conversion from 20" made in anglosaxon literature, european navy mostly use metric system and the "about 20"" german naval gun has always been a 50 cm weapon
 
not really
Both the Imperial German, the new Kreigsmarine and the Austro-Hungarian Navy used the 15cm designation while it was actually a 149mm Gun.
24cm for 238mm Guns and 28cm for 283mm.
 
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Tzoli said:
not really
Both the Imperial German, the new Kreigsmarine and the Austro-Hungarian Navy used the 15cm designation while it was actually a 149mm Gun
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149 mm doesn't round in inches, still no reason to built a 508 or 20" mm gun. Also 149 mm artillery caliber goes back to mid to late XIX century in army use but nearly all the gun caliber developed after circa 1900 were rounded to half a centimeter. Gerat 36 at 533 mm or 21" and the 406 mm sk/c43 are two of the few exceptions, the former an experimental weapon based on account of the most powerful weapon ever developed by RN and the latter was both determined by treaty and later rounded to 42 cm. As no nearly 500 mm naval gun was ever built by germans there was no reason to built a 508 mm weapon, it could be 50 cm 50,5 cm or 51 cm but why 50,8 cm?
 
ALCON,

In the spirit of keeping the discussion alive - I believe there is a lot we can share with one another here - I will be providing a much greater list of plans when I return to the US in the next few days. That's all for now, ty.
 
Does anyone know full length barell of 42cm/L48 (including without breech) perhaps? Oh yeah i just browse bunderachiv for awhile, found the triple turret plans for 16" but this one have their barrels gap slightly offset, it look uncanny.
 
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You know, Wargaming was not wrong that they did give communities the clue (hinting the archives) about triple turret, but hardly anyone bat an eye and call German triple turret pure fantasy.
 
Problem is wargaming creates so much non historical hypothetical designs even with no regards to the nation's design philosophy and the fact they say it was based on historical documents yet not showing any evidence to such documents Like the 4x3 203mm armed IJN Heavy cruiser clearly based on this drawing of a news article:
and which deemed non historical (very americanish look) makes us true naval enthusiasts question EVERY ship they decide to include in the game
 
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Tzoli said:
Problem is wargaming creates so much non historical hypothetical designs even with no regards to the nation's design philosophy and the fact they say it was based on historical documents yet not showing any evidence to such documents Like the 4x3 203mm armed IJN Heavy cruiser clearly based on this drawing of a news article:
and which deemed non historical (very americanish look) makes us true naval enthusiasts question EVERY ship they decide to include in the game
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Yep. If wargaming was clearer about what exactly was based off actual projects and what wasn't, it'd be nice as a starting point for digging into things. But it takes serious connections to get actual answers, and even then it's like pulling teeth (trust me, I'm responsible for a lot of it!)
 
Kingpin6100 said:
Tzoli said:
Problem is wargaming creates so much non historical hypothetical designs even with no regards to the nation's design philosophy and the fact they say it was based on historical documents yet not showing any evidence to such documents Like the 4x3 203mm armed IJN Heavy cruiser clearly based on this drawing of a news article:
and which deemed non historical (very americanish look) makes us true naval enthusiasts question EVERY ship they decide to include in the game
Click to expand...
Yep. If wargaming was clearer about what exactly was based off actual projects and what wasn't, it'd be nice as a starting point for digging into things. But it takes serious connections to get actual answers, and even then it's like pulling teeth (trust me, I'm responsible for a lot of it!)
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It's just as cringe to watch the rest of you guys have to fight tooth and nail just to get some half-assed answers - "it's NDA, sorry".
They come through sometimes, but it's not as consistent as it should be.
 
Nick Sumner said:
Thank you for sharing these Sarcasticat. They are an invaluable resource.
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Of course. I've been wanting to do this for a while, but did not quite know where to make their debut with a good historical community without a sinkhole-minded World of Warships player capitalizing on their release to make terrible suggestions with.
At least let me be the one to make terrible suggestions first.

Anyway, vent aside, I've still got more incoming - a few repeats and plenty of new scans in that hefty .TIFF size. They will taken some time, but they will be coming.
 
Yes WoWs forums is bad for this kind of info sharing.
 
Tzoli said:
Yes WoWs forums is bad for this kind of info sharing.
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Couldn't agree more. I can't imagine how many times someone without a proper understanding of game mechanics or balance have taken your illustrations - worse, your fictitious ones (as real) - and used them for "proposals".
Best one I have off the top of my head is your Japanese AA Cruiser.
Speaking of, I got a book recently:
This may be of use to you one day?
 
_Sarcasticat_ said:
Anyway, vent aside, I've still got more incoming - a few repeats and plenty of new scans in that hefty .TIFF size. They will taken some time, but they will be coming.
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Looking forward to the rest of RM-24 documents if you looking by, am still curious about German prototype weapons, so many things.

True, its pain to see how WoWs directions went into (i blame WG), reddit and forums turn into hivemind cesspool, only bias and conspiracy nonsense.
 
A japanese book about AA guns and AA ships? IJN or world wide?
But looks interesting

And yes they always find my old drawing of the IJN AA cruiser instead of the better newer one
 
alexi said:
_Sarcasticat_ said:
Anyway, vent aside, I've still got more incoming - a few repeats and plenty of new scans in that hefty .TIFF size. They will taken some time, but they will be coming.
Click to expand...
Looking forward to the rest of RM-24 documents if you looking by, am still curious about German prototype weapons, so many things.

True, its pain to see how WoWs directions went into (i blame WG), reddit and forums turn into hivemind cesspool, only bias and conspiracy nonsense.
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Haven't asked much about weaponry, though I have some questions myself about quite a large variety of German guns. Of course mostly 3cm weapons, a little on the 3.7cm/69 and /57, 12.8cm/61 KM40, /45 SK C/41, a few lesser known weapons like the 10.5cm KM44 or M44, as well as an 10.5cm SK C/36. So many mysteries.

Yes, the WoWs Reddit is truly something else.

Tzoli said:
A japanese book about AA guns and AA ships? IJN or world wide?
But looks interesting

And yes they always find my old drawing of the IJN AA cruiser instead of the better newer one
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Japanese. AFAIK goes into some peculiar projects that aren't particularly known.
cattalonX said:
Japanese AA guns？
View attachment 661873
www.zjsnrwiki.com

三年式E1高角炮 - 舰R百科

www.zjsnrwiki.com www.zjsnrwiki.com
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I'll have to check this one out, ty.
 
_Sarcasticat_ said:
Tzoli said:
A japanese book about AA guns and AA ships? IJN or world wide?
But looks interesting

And yes they always find my old drawing of the IJN AA cruiser instead of the better newer one
Click to expand...
Japanese. AFAIK goes into some peculiar projects that aren't particularly known.
Click to expand...

I know of the Akizuki Destroyers and the Akizuki-Kai or Super Akizukis of the latter I have limited info.
The proposals to convert the Tenryus and Kumas into CLAA
Isuzu's Refit into a CLAA
The conversion of Oyodo and Niyodo into CLAA (The 12x2 10cm design)
New AA Cruiser Design basically an Akizuki with seaplane facilities (4x2 10cm, 2x seaplanes)
Maya's sort of CAAA conversion.
Apart from these I know no other AA oriented projects.
 
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Tzoli said:
_Sarcasticat_ said:
Tzoli said:
A japanese book about AA guns and AA ships? IJN or world wide?
But looks interesting

And yes they always find my old drawing of the IJN AA cruiser instead of the better newer one
Click to expand...
Japanese. AFAIK goes into some peculiar projects that aren't particularly known.
Click to expand...

I know of the Akizuki Destroyers and the Akizuki-Kai or Super Akizukis of the latter I have limited info.
The proposals to convert the Tenryus and Kumas into CLAA
Isuzu's Refit into a CLAA
The conversion of Oyodo and Niyodo into CLAA (The 12x2 10cm design)
New AA Cruiser Design basically an Akizuki with seaplane facilities (4x2 10cm, 2x seaplanes)
May's sort of CAAA conversion.
Apart from these I know no other AA oriented projects.
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I believe this book covers some alternative proposals as well as the ones you listed.
 
I was wondering, are there any real reasons why German ditched turtleback on Mackensen in favor of vertical belt? i heard plenty reasons (weight, long-range fire, underwater shell hit against lower belt, buoyancy etc).
 
_Sarcasticat_ said:
When I take leave here later this August, I'll copy the entire book and place it here.
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Please don't do this - the forum has strict rules about adhering to copyright.

NEVER post images or whole pages from currently available books or magazines without the permission of the copyright holder. This harms revenues and may jeopardise the production of future books and magazines. Aviation publishing isn't a big money maker and we must support the authors and publishers. Posting a summary in your own words is acceptable.
Click to expand...
 
Hood said:
_Sarcasticat_ said:
When I take leave here later this August, I'll copy the entire book and place it here.
Click to expand...
Please don't do this - the forum has strict rules about adhering to copyright.

NEVER post images or whole pages from currently available books or magazines without the permission of the copyright holder. This harms revenues and may jeopardise the production of future books and magazines. Aviation publishing isn't a big money maker and we must support the authors and publishers. Posting a summary in your own words is acceptable.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
My apologies, I should have known. I won't post it here.


Completely unrelated, if anyone wants to talk to me directly (for questions and the like) please feel free to send me a DM on discord at _Sarcasticat_#8213.
 
alexi said:
I was wondering, are there any real reasons why German ditched turtleback on Mackensen in favor of vertical belt? i heard plenty reasons (weight, long-range fire, underwater shell hit against lower belt, buoyancy etc).
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A BB question, a bit out of my realm, but I believe this is discussed in Gary Staff's German Battlecruisers of World War I.

Ah, it is!

Staff writes that the design department removed the Böschung (sloping armor) to:
- Allow for easier coaling
- Provide structural advantages
- Increased weight savings (for speed, which was deemed paramount)
Not to say that there weren't other considerations, but these appear to be the ones on their minds.
 
Ladies, Gentlemen...Apache Attack Helicopters...the day has arrived.
I said I would let you know when I obtained more plans. So, as promised, I'm proud to present the next set of 20 plans recently made available to me.
Here is the link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TvB_4n7bAEFCNdy5kOFPAruCxWLS9HXW?usp=sharing
Here is the list:
RM/25 7747: Zerstorer Frankreich (ZF)2/ Between Deck 1:50
RM/25 7748: ZF2/ Furnishings - Aft Tween Deck 1:50
RM/25 7749: ZF2/ Stowage 1:50
RM/25 7785: ZF6, ZF7: Arrangement of Boilers, Turbines, And Auxiliary Equipment 1:50
RM/25 8570: Spahkreuzer/ Upper Decks and Bridges, 1941 1:100
RM/25 8571: Spahkreuzer/ Lower Deck and Inner Floor, 1941 1:100
RM/25 8573: Spahkreuzer 38/ Carrier-Main Boiler-Boiler Rm 2, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8574: Spahkreuzer38/ Carrier-Auxiliary Boiler, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8575: Spahkreuzer 38/ Carrier-Turbine System Starboard, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8577: Spahkreuzer/ Speed Measurement System Frame 92.2 to 93.2 Port, 1941 1:10
RM/25 8578: Spahkreuzer/ Equipment-Rear Deckhouse-Back Deck-Frame 33 to 52.95, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8579: Spahkreuzer/ Equipment-Deck House-Superstructure Deck, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8612: Spahkreuzer/ Boiler, Turbine, and Auxiliary Equipment - Power Plant 2 1:50
RM/25 8694: Spahkreuzer/ Middle Shaft Motors, 1940 1:50
RM/25 8696: Spahkreuzer/ Boiler, Turbine, and Auxiliary Equipment - Power Plant 1 1:50
RM/25 8698: ZF2/ Boiler, Turbine, and Auxiliary Machine Arrangement, 1941 1:50
RM/25 16146: Spahkreuzer 40/ Turbine, Boiler, Engine, and Auxiliary Machine Arrangement, 1941 1:100
RM/25 16155: Spahkreuzer 40/ Allocation Plan, 1942 1:200
RM/25 16389: Type 1936C/ Longitudinal Section and Top View 1:100
RM/25 16141: Spahkreuzer 38/ Splinter Protection Arrangement, 1941 1:250

You will, of course, find the other plans I've obtained in there. Be warned, these are EXTREMELY LARGE .TIFF FILES. If your internet isn't godlike, I advise prepping for a long download time. These are anywhere between 150 MB and upwards of 900 MB per image. The folders also in the Primary Documents-->Germany folder contain numerous, if less detailed and cohesive, hand-taken pictures of various other plans.

If you have any questions, do not feel any reluctance to ask.
 
Found Flottentorpedoboot 1944 weight statement. On Wikipedia, of all things.
"The preliminary weight composition reflects the planning status in 1944." [Note that the ships were ordered March 28, 1944.]

description Weight
[t]
Hull 579.00
Main machines 557.80
Auxiliary machines 70.20
Construction reserve S 20.00
Artillery armament 63.20
Torpedo armament 26.00
Spear weapon facility 11.40
Empty ship 1,327.60


General devices 27.00
Nautical instruments, rigging 2.50
Radio and UT systems 10.36
Artillery equipment 11.75
Torpedo devices 4.00
Spear weapon devices 4.03
Water in the pipelines 0.50
Empty ship 1,387.74


Artillery, rifle and salute ammunition 60.30
Torpedo ammunition, smoke acid 10.50
Spear ammunition 5.44
Consumables 4.50
Crew (165 men) 12.38
effects 8.75
Provisions (1 week) 2.50
Type displacement 1,492.11


Drinking water, washing water 7.90
Feed water 13.70
Heating oil for 1,900 nm at a speed of 19 kn 116.80
Fuel oil 3.20
Lubricating oil 3.20
Construction displacement 1,636.61


Drinking and washing water, mob supplies 11.90
Feed water, mob supply 20.50
Heating oil, mob stock 175.20
Fuel oil, mob supply 4.80
Lube Oil, Mob Supply 4.80


Full displacement 1,854.11


I'm personally not quite sure what source this draws from as apparently only Harold Fock's Die Deutsche Flottentorpedoboot 1942-1945 (of which I have a physical copy) is listed, but I do not recall a weight statement being provided for Ftb 1944 in his book - only Type 1939, 1940, and 1941.
I hope this bit of information will find its way to someone who will find it useful.

Sincerely, and until next time,
Sarcasticat.
 
_Sarcasticat_ said:
Ladies, Gentlemen...Apache Attack Helicopters...the day has arrived.
I said I would let you know when I obtained more plans. So, as promised, I'm proud to present the next set of 20 plans recently made available to me.
Here is the link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TvB_4n7bAEFCNdy5kOFPAruCxWLS9HXW?usp=sharing
Here is the list:
RM/25 7747: Zerstorer Frankreich (ZF)2/ Between Deck 1:50
RM/25 7748: ZF2/ Furnishings - Aft Tween Deck 1:50
RM/25 7749: ZF2/ Stowage 1:50
RM/25 7785: ZF6, ZF7: Arrangement of Boilers, Turbines, And Auxiliary Equipment 1:50
RM/25 8570: Spahkreuzer/ Upper Decks and Bridges, 1941 1:100
RM/25 8571: Spahkreuzer/ Lower Deck and Inner Floor, 1941 1:100
RM/25 8573: Spahkreuzer 38/ Carrier-Main Boiler-Boiler Rm 2, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8574: Spahkreuzer38/ Carrier-Auxiliary Boiler, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8575: Spahkreuzer 38/ Carrier-Turbine System Starboard, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8577: Spahkreuzer/ Speed Measurement System Frame 92.2 to 93.2 Port, 1941 1:10
RM/25 8578: Spahkreuzer/ Equipment-Rear Deckhouse-Back Deck-Frame 33 to 52.95, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8579: Spahkreuzer/ Equipment-Deck House-Superstructure Deck, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8612: Spahkreuzer/ Boiler, Turbine, and Auxiliary Equipment - Power Plant 2 1:50
RM/25 8694: Spahkreuzer/ Middle Shaft Motors, 1940 1:50
RM/25 8696: Spahkreuzer/ Boiler, Turbine, and Auxiliary Equipment - Power Plant 1 1:50
RM/25 8698: ZF2/ Boiler, Turbine, and Auxiliary Machine Arrangement, 1941 1:50
RM/25 16146: Spahkreuzer 40/ Turbine, Boiler, Engine, and Auxiliary Machine Arrangement, 1941 1:100
RM/25 16155: Spahkreuzer 40/ Allocation Plan, 1942 1:200
RM/25 16389: Type 1936C/ Longitudinal Section and Top View 1:100
RM/25 16141: Spahkreuzer 38/ Splinter Protection Arrangement, 1941 1:250

You will, of course, find the other plans I've obtained in there. Be warned, these are EXTREMELY LARGE .TIFF FILES. If your internet isn't godlike, I advise prepping for a long download time. These are anywhere between 150 MB and upwards of 900 MB per image. The folders also in the Primary Documents-->Germany folder contain numerous, if less detailed and cohesive, hand-taken pictures of various other plans.

If you have any questions, do not feel any reluctance to ask.
Click to expand...
RM 25-22617 is really interesting! Thx, didn't know of this proposal
 
Roodbaard1958! said:
_Sarcasticat_ said:
Ladies, Gentlemen...Apache Attack Helicopters...the day has arrived.
I said I would let you know when I obtained more plans. So, as promised, I'm proud to present the next set of 20 plans recently made available to me.
Here is the link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TvB_4n7bAEFCNdy5kOFPAruCxWLS9HXW?usp=sharing
Here is the list:
RM/25 7747: Zerstorer Frankreich (ZF)2/ Between Deck 1:50
RM/25 7748: ZF2/ Furnishings - Aft Tween Deck 1:50
RM/25 7749: ZF2/ Stowage 1:50
RM/25 7785: ZF6, ZF7: Arrangement of Boilers, Turbines, And Auxiliary Equipment 1:50
RM/25 8570: Spahkreuzer/ Upper Decks and Bridges, 1941 1:100
RM/25 8571: Spahkreuzer/ Lower Deck and Inner Floor, 1941 1:100
RM/25 8573: Spahkreuzer 38/ Carrier-Main Boiler-Boiler Rm 2, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8574: Spahkreuzer38/ Carrier-Auxiliary Boiler, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8575: Spahkreuzer 38/ Carrier-Turbine System Starboard, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8577: Spahkreuzer/ Speed Measurement System Frame 92.2 to 93.2 Port, 1941 1:10
RM/25 8578: Spahkreuzer/ Equipment-Rear Deckhouse-Back Deck-Frame 33 to 52.95, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8579: Spahkreuzer/ Equipment-Deck House-Superstructure Deck, 1941 1:25
RM/25 8612: Spahkreuzer/ Boiler, Turbine, and Auxiliary Equipment - Power Plant 2 1:50
RM/25 8694: Spahkreuzer/ Middle Shaft Motors, 1940 1:50
RM/25 8696: Spahkreuzer/ Boiler, Turbine, and Auxiliary Equipment - Power Plant 1 1:50
RM/25 8698: ZF2/ Boiler, Turbine, and Auxiliary Machine Arrangement, 1941 1:50
RM/25 16146: Spahkreuzer 40/ Turbine, Boiler, Engine, and Auxiliary Machine Arrangement, 1941 1:100
RM/25 16155: Spahkreuzer 40/ Allocation Plan, 1942 1:200
RM/25 16389: Type 1936C/ Longitudinal Section and Top View 1:100
RM/25 16141: Spahkreuzer 38/ Splinter Protection Arrangement, 1941 1:250

You will, of course, find the other plans I've obtained in there. Be warned, these are EXTREMELY LARGE .TIFF FILES. If your internet isn't godlike, I advise prepping for a long download time. These are anywhere between 150 MB and upwards of 900 MB per image. The folders also in the Primary Documents-->Germany folder contain numerous, if less detailed and cohesive, hand-taken pictures of various other plans.

If you have any questions, do not feel any reluctance to ask.
Click to expand...
RM 25-22617 is really interesting! Thx, didn't know of this proposal
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Yeah, my little bit of research indicates this is the German civilian vessel Hansadampfer converted into a CVL.
 
alexi said:
The mystery documents about O, P and possibly Q variants, yet unsolved, do you think its possible on bunderarchiv?
https://imgur.com/CJq38j6
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Ah yes, I have had this image for a little while now. Comparing it to the final specifications of the O and P-class, it shares some similarities with these mentioned designs but does not accurately match any one of them. The closest is O39, which I figure directly precedes the finalized design created in 1940 - but is not the O40. Even though orders for the ships were called for in 1939, it was realized that construction would have to be done post-war and thus weren't laid down. This gives some time for designers to speculate, and that's what I believe this source to be primarily about: speculation on variants to the O and P-class. I can only say that this document likely originated in 1942 or perhaps prior given the latest date is "O42". Honestly I have no idea where this comes from or if it's in the Bundesarchiv. It could be one of the many yet-named but digitalized pieces that can be found in the Invenio search function.
 
ssaa8836 said:
This doc comes from Die deutsche Kriegsmarine-Rüstung 1942-1945 (by Guntram Schulze-Wegener), on page 78.
Its source is BA-MA RM 6/83
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Oh, i found it on the achive, some interesting data sheets but sadly i can't read German at all.
 
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alexi said:
Not much to discuss, here's some 28cm turret plans in 1926/27 for preliminary panzerschiff projects, one of Zenker panzerschiff type "A" carrying these turrets (assuming by the gunhouse shape).
https://imgur.com/a/XU3INYp

d08.jpg
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Beautiful find Alexi, I've been wondering what these would be like.
alexi said:
ssaa8836 said:
This doc comes from Die deutsche Kriegsmarine-Rüstung 1942-1945 (by Guntram Schulze-Wegener), on page 78.
Its source is BA-MA RM 6/83
Click to expand...
Oh, i found it on the achive, some interesting data sheets but sadly i can't read German at all.
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I'll see if I can do anything with it.
 

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