Korean airline flight 007 shootdown September 1, 1983

[AeroFranz]

At the height of the cold war, there was an interesting episode involving a Korean 747 overflying secret soviet installations in the Kamchatka peninsula. It was eventually intercepted and shot down by a 'Flagon'. Much controversy surrounds the event, ranging from navigation error to deliberate espionage. Do forum members have books on the subject to recommend? i would also be interested in hearing if there is an accepted version of the events.

 

[quellish]

At the height of the cold war, there was an interesting episode involving a Korean 747 overflying secret soviet installations in the Kamchatka peninsula. It was eventually intercepted and shot down by a 'Flagon'. Much controversy surrounds the event, ranging from navigation error to deliberate espionage. Do forum members have books on the subject to recommend? i would also be interested in hearing if there is an accepted version of the events.

This is a good starting point:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-articles/read.main?id=72
And it is an excerpt of "Rescue 007: The Untold Story of KAL 007 and Its Survivors," by Bert Schlossberg (which I have not read). James Bamford wrote several articles on NSA's role in this and touched on it in some of his books as well.

 

[Archibald]

Bert Schlossberg theories are BOLLOCKS. Pure siliness !

He base his theories on the fact that KAL-007 four engines worked even after the misiles hits. Thus the Boeing might have land on water, and the passengers survived, and being held "hostage" by the soviets, then the russians... for 26 years.

However the soviet missiles destroyed the hydraulics of the aircraft, which diteched violently in the sea. No survivor.

I had doubts, too, about KAL-007. Couldn't understood how the darn airliner get lost so deep in the soviet airspace.

Then some weeks ago I red this article.

http://www.jamesoberg.com/russian/kal007.html

I stood corrected. Yes, the airliner got lost. Yes, the crew went of course, and never understood nor corrected their mistake, for twelve hours. Sounds incredible, but it is the truth.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Yes, the airliner got lost. Yes, the crew went of course, and never understood nor corrected their mistake, for twelve hours. Sounds incredible, but it is the truth.

Happens too often, and easily. Witness the recent flight that "missed" Minneapolis.

 

[sublight]

Yes, the airliner got lost. Yes, the crew went of course, and never understood nor corrected their mistake, for twelve hours. Sounds incredible, but it is the truth.

Happens too often, and easily. Witness the recent flight that "missed" Minneapolis.

But the tragedy is that the Air Force could have alerted the plane, but they likely were very aware that by not alerting the plane they had a dynamite intelligence gathering opportunity. I'm sure the Air Force personnel involved didn't honestly think the soviets would shoot the Airliner down.

 

[Triton]

But the tragedy is that the Air Force could have alerted the plane, but they likely were very aware that by not alerting the plane they had a dynamite intelligence gathering opportunity. I'm sure the Air Force personnel involved didn't honestly think the soviets would shoot the Airliner down.

That's unsupported speculation. The data from the tapes from the United States Air Force radar installation at King Salmon, Alaska was said to be destroyed when they were subpoenaed by the Department of Justice during the civil suit against Korean Air Lines. It is customary for the Air Force to reuse the tapes after 24-to-30 hours. The Soviet Union has claimed that a US Air Force RC-135S Cobra Ball reconnaissance plane was in the area but this has never been confirmed by the Air Force. An effort by the families of the victims to find out what the US Air Force knew was denied by Chief Justice of the District Court of Washington, D.C. Aubrey Robinson on the grounds that it would endanger national security.

The problem with the story of KAL 007 is that the events have been colored by Cold War disinformation, anti-Soviet propaganda, and far out conspiracy theories to sell sensationalist books.

 

[sublight]

They knew in less than 24 hours that the plane had been shot down. So the re-use of the tapes, therefore destroying the data was deliberate. The area in question was under intense NSA monitoring because of an impending missile test. Its highly unlikely that they were completely unaware of the airplanes divergent flight path.

 

[quellish]

Bert Schlossberg theories are BOLLOCKS. Pure siliness !

D'oh! Glad I mentioned I hadn't read the book, though the article does seem to be a good starting point for some of the controversy!

Assuming that intercept operators on a collection platform are listening in real time is probably a mistake. On a platform like that it's *impossible* to have enough operators to cover what you're actually collecting - and from what I recall there were intercepts from multiple systems for KAL007

 

[Triton]

They knew in less than 24 hours that the plane had been shot down. So the re-use of the tapes, therefore destroying the data was deliberate. The area in question was under intense NSA monitoring because of an impending missile test. Its highly unlikely that they were completely unaware of the airplanes divergent flight path.

The re-use of the tapes and the loss of the radar data they contained is unfortunate and a reasonable person would find this suspicious, but it isn't proof of deliberate data destruction or a conspiracy on the part of the United States Air Force. Another possible explanation is that an Airman did not receive instructions to keep the tape or tapes and was following standard operating procedures in re-using them after 24-to-30 hours.

You have no proof, or supporting evidence, that the Air Force knew that the plane was off course, or was about to fly over restricted air space, or that they deliberately failed to warn the plane for fear of ruining an intelligence gathering opportunity. I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that they were completely unaware of the airplanes divergent flight path. But that's my opinion and without supporting evidence of what the Air Force or National Security Agency knew while the events were unfolding it is not fact but speculation.

 

[Triton]

How about this for wacko conspiracy theories related to the KAL 007 shootdown? :

Incident at Sakhalin:The True Story of Flight KAL 007 by Michel Brun
Published by Four Walls Eight Windows (December 29, 1995)

From the book's jacket:

The KAL 007 tragedy was one of the most dramatic and dangerous episodes in the last phase of the Cold War. Despite two official investigations, innumerable television reports, newspaper and magazine articles, and books, the startling truth of this incident - in which 269 civilian passengers and crew lost their lives, and the world came closer to nuclear war than at any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis - has been obscured by a brazen and on-going cover-up.

Here, as a result of more than ten years of research, Michel Brun reveals the truth, which at least four governments have colluded to conceal. Incident at Sakhalin not only demolishes the official story of a lone civilian airliner flying innocently off course. It does much more. The book establishes that as the Korean Boeing 747 approached the Russian island of Sakhalin, so too did a number of U.S. military and reconnaissance aircraft in an ill-conceived intelligence and provocation operation that turned into a two-hour battle in which thirty or more U.S. Air Force and Navy personnel were killed and ten or more U.S. aircraft were shot down.

Contrary to "official" reports from the United States and the International Civil Aviation Organization, KAL 007 was not shot down over Sakhalin but was destroyed off Honshu, the main Japanese island, nearly an hour later than the reports claimed and by means and for reasons still not clear.

Incident at Sakhalin is an astonishing chronicle of a Cold War catastrophe that raises questions about a democracy and its relationship to its military and intelligence agencies. For anyone interested in politics, aviation, or international intelligence, Incident at Sakhalin is a must read.

From Wikipedia:

According to this book, KAL007 was involved in a spy mission intended to trigger Soviet air defences and to cover the missions of several USAF spy airplanes. The Korean aircraft was communicating with Tokyo-Narita controllers around half an hour after the official time of the shootdown. A large air battle occurred between Soviet Air Force and USAF, during which the Soviets shot down several American aircraft, including an RC-135, an EF-111 and probably even an SR-71. The Su-15 pilot, Major Osipovich, flew two sorties and shot down two targets (contradicted by the 1991 interview with Osipovich). The whereabouts of the KAL-007 wreckage is not known to anyone, but is probably 500 kilometres (310 mi) away from the Moneron island. The theory postulates further that the real cause of the destruction is not known, but could have been a surface-to-air missile fired from USS Badger (similar case with USS Vincennes shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655) or from Japanese forces, who could not identify the airliner which was keeping radio silence.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAL_007

 

[sublight]

Haha, I would more likely believe that the NSA helped dream up that book than I would believe the tales written in it....

 

[Triton]

Has anyone read the ammended "Fact Finding Investigation Regarding the Shooting Down of Korean Air Lines Boeing 747 (Flight KAL007)" report authored by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)?

 

[Archibald]

How about this for wacko conspiracy theories related to the KAL 007 shootdown? :

Incident at Sakhalin:The True Story of Flight KAL 007 by Michel Brun
Published by Four Walls Eight Windows (December 29, 1995)

From the book's jacket:

The KAL 007 tragedy was one of the most dramatic and dangerous episodes in the last phase of the Cold War. Despite two official investigations, innumerable television reports, newspaper and magazine articles, and books, the startling truth of this incident - in which 269 civilian passengers and crew lost their lives, and the world came closer to nuclear war than at any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis - has been obscured by a brazen and on-going cover-up.

Here, as a result of more than ten years of research, Michel Brun reveals the truth, which at least four governments have colluded to conceal. Incident at Sakhalin not only demolishes the official story of a lone civilian airliner flying innocently off course. It does much more. The book establishes that as the Korean Boeing 747 approached the Russian island of Sakhalin, so too did a number of U.S. military and reconnaissance aircraft in an ill-conceived intelligence and provocation operation that turned into a two-hour battle in which thirty or more U.S. Air Force and Navy personnel were killed and ten or more U.S. aircraft were shot down.

Contrary to "official" reports from the United States and the International Civil Aviation Organization, KAL 007 was not shot down over Sakhalin but was destroyed off Honshu, the main Japanese island, nearly an hour later than the reports claimed and by means and for reasons still not clear.

Incident at Sakhalin is an astonishing chronicle of a Cold War catastrophe that raises questions about a democracy and its relationship to its military and intelligence agencies. For anyone interested in politics, aviation, or international intelligence, Incident at Sakhalin is a must read.

From Wikipedia:

According to this book, KAL007 was involved in a spy mission intended to trigger Soviet air defences and to cover the missions of several USAF spy airplanes. The Korean aircraft was communicating with Tokyo-Narita controllers around half an hour after the official time of the shootdown. A large air battle occurred between Soviet Air Force and USAF, during which the Soviets shot down several American aircraft, including an RC-135, an EF-111 and probably even an SR-71. The Su-15 pilot, Major Osipovich, flew two sorties and shot down two targets (contradicted by the 1991 interview with Osipovich). The whereabouts of the KAL-007 wreckage is not known to anyone, but is probably 500 kilometres (310 mi) away from the Moneron island. The theory postulates further that the real cause of the destruction is not known, but could have been a surface-to-air missile fired from USS Badger (similar case with USS Vincennes shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655) or from Japanese forces, who could not identify the airliner which was keeping radio silence.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAL_007

Another idiot, this one pretends KAL-007 was caught in the middle of a ferocious air battle - PVO vs USN and USAF.

D'oh! Glad I mentioned I hadn't read the book, though the article does seem to be a good starting point for some of the controversy!

Sorry for over-reacting.

 

[Archibald]

Yes, the airliner got lost. Yes, the crew went of course, and never understood nor corrected their mistake, for twelve hours. Sounds incredible, but it is the truth.

Happens too often, and easily. Witness the recent flight that "missed" Minneapolis.

And Oberg cite some cases in the article, too. The sky is wide !

The problem with the story of KAL 007 is that the events have been colored by Cold War disinformation, anti-Soviet propaganda, and far out conspiracy theories to sell sensationalist books.

Plus the fact that, around 1978, a KAL Boeing 707 veered of course, entered soviet airspace, and was gunned by a soviet fighter.
Anyone know how the KAL 707 get lost in the soviet airspace in 1978 ? Same reasons as for KAL-007 ?
The 1978 incident is used by conspirationist as a proof that KAL was a trojan horse for the CIA, or the south korean CIA, or something else.
The coincidence is disturbing, to say the least.

 

[Triton]

It seems that there isn't much information written about the incident after 1993 when Boris Yeltsin's government turned over the cockpit data recorders to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) in Paris.

 

[lancer21]

How about this for wacko conspiracy theories related to the KAL 007 shootdown? :

Incident at Sakhalin:The True Story of Flight KAL 007 by Michel Brun
Published by Four Walls Eight Windows (December 29, 1995)

From the book's jacket:

The KAL 007 tragedy was one of the most dramatic and dangerous episodes in the last phase of the Cold War. Despite two official investigations, innumerable television reports, newspaper and magazine articles, and books, the startling truth of this incident - in which 269 civilian passengers and crew lost their lives, and the world came closer to nuclear war than at any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis - has been obscured by a brazen and on-going cover-up.

Here, as a result of more than ten years of research, Michel Brun reveals the truth, which at least four governments have colluded to conceal. Incident at Sakhalin not only demolishes the official story of a lone civilian airliner flying innocently off course. It does much more. The book establishes that as the Korean Boeing 747 approached the Russian island of Sakhalin, so too did a number of U.S. military and reconnaissance aircraft in an ill-conceived intelligence and provocation operation that turned into a two-hour battle in which thirty or more U.S. Air Force and Navy personnel were killed and ten or more U.S. aircraft were shot down.

Contrary to "official" reports from the United States and the International Civil Aviation Organization, KAL 007 was not shot down over Sakhalin but was destroyed off Honshu, the main Japanese island, nearly an hour later than the reports claimed and by means and for reasons still not clear.

Incident at Sakhalin is an astonishing chronicle of a Cold War catastrophe that raises questions about a democracy and its relationship to its military and intelligence agencies. For anyone interested in politics, aviation, or international intelligence, Incident at Sakhalin is a must read.

From Wikipedia:

According to this book, KAL007 was involved in a spy mission intended to trigger Soviet air defences and to cover the missions of several USAF spy airplanes. The Korean aircraft was communicating with Tokyo-Narita controllers around half an hour after the official time of the shootdown. A large air battle occurred between Soviet Air Force and USAF, during which the Soviets shot down several American aircraft, including an RC-135, an EF-111 and probably even an SR-71. The Su-15 pilot, Major Osipovich, flew two sorties and shot down two targets (contradicted by the 1991 interview with Osipovich). The whereabouts of the KAL-007 wreckage is not known to anyone, but is probably 500 kilometres (310 mi) away from the Moneron island. The theory postulates further that the real cause of the destruction is not known, but could have been a surface-to-air missile fired from USS Badger (similar case with USS Vincennes shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655) or from Japanese forces, who could not identify the airliner which was keeping radio silence.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAL_007

WHAT ? Gee what is that guy smoking??? Good for a spy/conspiracy fiction book tho...

I have read several years ago a translated book, itself written by an american (i think) , in 1984...if i remember correctly , it says that actually US officials( maby even the president?), admitted in haveing an RC-135 in the area ( and that was categorized as a blunder )...might be interesting to dig out contremporary media&press...

Truth is KAL007 is a sad episode of the cold war , the americans sticking their noses to see what the ruskies are doing , the russians getting increasingly jumpy, the local military commanders under pressure to do something about those spy flights...add a bit of fate and bad luck , and that was it...269 peoples perished.

(Maby to a point the situation in 1983 was akin to 1960 and before ...then too the americans were getting into USSR to take a look at what the ruskies are doing regardless, and the russians were under heavy pressure to do something ...)