Kamov Ka-52K Katran

yasotay

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
3,122
Reaction score
2,043
No one "wants" to overfly the enemy. The tactics they have to use make it harder to do what the Apache was doing in the video above (i.e. hovering attack). When flying very low and fast, target observation distances are shorter (for both sides).

Without some idea of how many sortie the Ka-52 are flying it is hard to tell how well they are doing (loss/missions). That said, I would agree that the Ka-52 is doing better than the venerable Mi-24 as it is a more modern aircraft and has integrated survivability systems.
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
2,838
Reaction score
1,713
Combat use of the Ka-52 in Gostomel (Ukraine) This is not a "Katran", I did not find a more suitable topic
I must have missed something, was the aircraft hit? Badly damaged?
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
2,838
Reaction score
1,713
Cue one very frightened crew looking to get out of it well. Never funny whoever. I hope they got through it OK.
 

yasotay

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
3,122
Reaction score
2,043
Cue one very frightened crew looking to get out of it well. Never funny whoever. I hope they got through it OK.
Usually when one plans a large air assault one plans for at least one CSAR bird as well.

Certainly the Ka52 appears more durable than its predecessors. Of the four I have seen in disrepair, two made it to the ground intact, one went into a river (with at least one aircrew successfully using the ejection system it appears) and one appears to have made it to the ground intact before burning.

The attached picture demonstrates the durability as it is clear that the pictured aircraft was hit by a MANPAD in the wing tip ASE pod. Note the significant overpressure damage to the intermediate section of the tail boom. Rotor system has had better days as well.
 

Attachments

  • 0.jpg
    0.jpg
    69 KB · Views: 112

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
2,838
Reaction score
1,713
Indeed, the rotor layout should make for good autorotation qualities too but leaving politics aside and as an ex serviceman, I have a concern for all service members in the world. A tough job right now.
 

paralay

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
349
Reaction score
595
Website
www.paralay.ru
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,501
Reaction score
5,279
The stub wing flapping motion (flutter) is scarry. For the pilots and anyone near the flight path when they fire their rockets pods.
As an Engineer, I will advise anyone to act with extreme caution if remotely in the line of sight of this thing: duck for cover... from Ukraine to Paris!
 

muttbutt

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
319
Reaction score
224
The Russians left the Ka-52 that was brought down in February at Hostomel, intact for the Ukrainians to capture....Steve the friendly flatbed driver from Cargo Is Accessible will be along shortly for pick up.

ra9Rst9.jpg

o1V0kXO.jpg
 

stealthflanker

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
1,172
Reaction score
1,226
They didnt destroy the helicopter during retrat, i wonder why. It might be inert and unflyable but still can provide some good piece of intelligence.
 

yasotay

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
3,122
Reaction score
2,043
Ukrainians took out a Ka-52 with a Stugna-P ATGM...notice how they kept the laser off target until the last minute..clever.
Rule #1 for helo pilots in modern combat: ALWAYS keep moving as fast as you can and never go in a straight line.
Most of the video I have seen of Ka52 in this war have shown pilots following this rule. This crew did not and paid the price.
@Orionblamblam - when a dude shows up with a suitcase full of $100 bills; enough to buy a squadron of cropdusters, you smile and help put the thing on the truck.
 

Orionblamblam

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
9,705
Reaction score
5,009
Website
www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com
@Orionblamblam - when a dude shows up with a suitcase full of $100 bills; enough to buy a squadron of cropdusters, you smile and help put the thing on the truck.

The *first* one will merit a suitcase of $100 bills. The second, a case of fifties. Soon enough Kamovs and Mils will be littered about like dropped AK-74's.
 

aonestudio

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
1,074
Reaction score
2,235

Cannonfodder43

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Dec 8, 2019
Messages
66
Reaction score
148
View: https://twitter.com/DylanMalyasov/status/1524659575848374272
Interesting, I do remember seeing Ka-52 footage and seeing the stubs wings move quite a bit in flight. To see it flex this much even on hover and take off....

Going to have to redesign to fix this issue if it's pretty apparent it's bad.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,501
Reaction score
5,279
See post #50 above commenting video in post #49 (video unavailable anymore)

Malpractice is a terrible enemy to any military...
 
Last edited:

yasotay

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
3,122
Reaction score
2,043
This is suprising to me as the Kamov rotor system has been around for a number of decades. Heavy vibration is a know facor with coaxial rotor systems. Could it be a factor of field use and maintenance not maintaining track and balance. Are full combat loads a new thing?
 

TomS

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
5,674
Reaction score
3,837
This is suprising to me as the Kamov rotor system has been around for a number of decades. Heavy vibration is a know facor with coaxial rotor systems. Could it be a factor of field use and maintenance not maintaining track and balance. Are full combat loads a new thing?

Reading the comments, it sounds like the wing fasteners aren't properly torqued down.
 

_Del_

I really should change my personal text... Or not.
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
767
Reaction score
658
The high-speed flight vibration discussed earlier didn't surprise me at all. They're much higher aspect ratio than a more "normal" stub-wing, and getting higher loads than most.

The image in the hover is more surprising. I'd want a lot more information than a three second GIF to make any sort of conclusion about vibration being an actual problem. The fact we have decades of video of the Ka-52 in flight and hover without ever observing this before, is a pretty good hint that there is something odd occurring in this single example.
 

_Del_

I really should change my personal text... Or not.
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
767
Reaction score
658
This is suprising to me as the Kamov rotor system has been around for a number of decades. Heavy vibration is a know facor with coaxial rotor systems. Could it be a factor of field use and maintenance not maintaining track and balance. Are full combat loads a new thing?

Reading the comments, it sounds like the wing fasteners aren't properly torqued down.
Tired people make mistakes. As we've learned ourselves over and over again. As good a guess as any.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
1,210
Reaction score
2,072
i would imagine co-axial designs led to less vibrations rather than more?

I've also been wondering of the co-axial design works well in maritime applications like ASW, and less so for attack helicopters (especially limits on mast mounted sensors)
 

Jemiba

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,412
Reaction score
1,825
The lower rotor always works in the full downwash of the upper one, and the moment, when the upper and lower blades reach the same point on the horizontal level, may well be prone to inducing vibrations, I think.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,501
Reaction score
5,279
Guys, this is not simple vibrations. It's a flutter problem, meaning that something was badly executed during the design, the testing phase and service introduction.
 

yasotay

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
3,122
Reaction score
2,043
Guys, this is not simple vibrations. It's a flutter problem, meaning that something was badly executed during the design, the testing phase and service introduction.
So then you would subscribe to this being another example of "less than stellar" Russian engineering effort? That has been a popular mantra in western press, but I have to wonder if as storied a helicopter concern as Kamov would overlook such a thing. Very similar rotors on Ka-32 have been operating by western nations. How come we have not heard of this from the Egyptians who operate Ka-52?
Unfortunate for the aircrews regardless.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,501
Reaction score
5,279
Manufacturing isn't devoid of the same problem faced by architecture: a lot of fine concepts and design got shell-out by grid and stupidity during project execution. The stub wing might have been manufactured by another contractor, modified to cut cost or the installation setup modified versus what Kamov originally designed. Fact is that we don't yet know. What we do know is that sending kids on the frontline with such is utterly wrong and, military and industry wise, dysfunctional.
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
2,838
Reaction score
1,713
Poor maintenance seems a better bet to me, much more variable in standard than design and build anyway, especially in a conflict with high rates of operation.
 
Last edited:

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,501
Reaction score
5,279
I very much doubt of that. You don't see Mil24 & 35's pilot exposed to the same danger nor Apache and Cobra pilots that went in hanger facing similar threat and conflict hurdles.

But let's agree to disagree here.
 

Trident

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,393
Reaction score
1,017
Battle damage? There are other videos of Ka-52s approaching to land with a similar load out where you'd expect that amplitude of movement to visible, but the wings look rigid. Perhaps even a small arms hit to a certain structural member alters its response to downwash excitation in a manner that produces this result?
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
5,501
Reaction score
5,279
That is possible but the discussion was raised after, allegedly, numerous crew reporting the same problem. In the video, none of the two crew seemed alerted by the flapping motion (they should), meaning that they got used to it the wrong way.
 
Last edited:

yasotay

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
3,122
Reaction score
2,043
It is my (very limited) understanding that you have to carefully balance the rotor phasing (where they pass over each other) or it can cause serious resonance issues. I do not know if this is something that is set in the design and is not changeable in the field, or if it is something that can be effected by less than adequate field maintenance.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
1,210
Reaction score
2,072
Question on Ka-52 and Mi-28 operations. They've been used in Ukraine and I think also Syria among others.
I believe there's a large overlap in roles between the two in combat.. but is the Russian military using them for different purposes in these conflicts? or the same?
Thus far, the Mi-28 seems to have had a bit less losses than the 52 and wondering if an apples to apples comparison can be made
 

Similar threads

Top