KAI T-50 and FA-50 Golden Eagle Thread

helmutkohl

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TomcatViP

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From link above:
KAI has exported 156 trainer jets worth US$3.1 billion -- 72 T-50 advanced trainer jets worth $2.6 billion and 84 KT-1 basic trainer jets worth $700 million -- to countries that include Indonesia, Iraq, Thailand, Turkey, Peru and the Philippines since its foundation in 1999.
 

helmutkohl

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Summary translation
this pertains to a number of aircraft not just the Golden Eagle

Malaysia is thinking of getting Kuwait's legacy F-18s

also wants a light combat aircraft. bidders are
KAI Golden Eagle
JF-17
L-15
Red Hawk
M-346
Tejas
Yak-130
L-39NH

is this the first time the Yak-130 is competing with its siblings, the M-346 and L-15?
 
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starviking

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Malaysia is thinking of getting Kuwait's legacy F-18s

also wants a light combat aircraft. 8 bidders

Hawk
Any details on the BAe bid? I’m assuming a LCA would need a radar, which would suggest something like the Hawk 200, which Malaysia has operated.
 

helmutkohl

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Malaysia is thinking of getting Kuwait's legacy F-18s

also wants a light combat aircraft. 8 bidders

Hawk
Any details on the BAe bid? I’m assuming a LCA would need a radar, which would suggest something like the Hawk 200, which Malaysia has operated.
sorry, mistranslation on my part. its the Red Hawk, (Boeing), not the BAe Hawk
 

Tony Williams

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The attack version of the plane (A-50) is fitted with a three-barrel version of the M61A2 six-barrel cannon, developed by GD. As far as I know, this does not have a designation, other than A-50. Does anyone know more?
 

Maro.Kyo

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The attack version of the plane (A-50) is fitted with a three-barrel version of the M61A2 six-barrel cannon, developed by GD. As far as I know, this does not have a designation, other than A-50. Does anyone know more?
M197. Yes, that gun used by cobra and viper.
 

Tony Williams

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The attack version of the plane (A-50) is fitted with a three-barrel version of the M61A2 six-barrel cannon, developed by GD. As far as I know, this does not have a designation, other than A-50. Does anyone know more?
M197. Yes, that gun used by cobra and viper.
No, the M197 is an old design with a low rate of fire of 750-1,500 rpm (depending on the installation). The new gun is based on the M61A2 but with only half the number of barrels, and it fires at 3,000 rpm.

I notice that the KAI website just refers to it as the "20mm Three-Barreled Gun"
 

Maro.Kyo

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The attack version of the plane (A-50) is fitted with a three-barrel version of the M61A2 six-barrel cannon, developed by GD. As far as I know, this does not have a designation, other than A-50. Does anyone know more?
M197. Yes, that gun used by cobra and viper.
No, the M197 is an old design with a low rate of fire of 750-1,500 rpm (depending on the installation). The new gun is based on the M61A2 but with only half the number of barrels, and it fires at 3,000 rpm.

I notice that the KAI website just refers to it as the "20mm Three-Barreled Gun"
Right, I must be wrong then. Quite a few Korean news named M197 as the gun so I thought that would be the case. Well otherwise I could also only find descriptions which names it a "M61 variant"
 

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Thought they had reused the M197 designation, thanks for the clarification.
 

TomS

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The attack version of the plane (A-50) is fitted with a three-barrel version of the M61A2 six-barrel cannon, developed by GD. As far as I know, this does not have a designation, other than A-50. Does anyone know more?
M197. Yes, that gun used by cobra and viper.
No, the M197 is an old design with a low rate of fire of 750-1,500 rpm (depending on the installation). The new gun is based on the M61A2 but with only half the number of barrels, and it fires at 3,000 rpm.

I notice that the KAI website just refers to it as the "20mm Three-Barreled Gun"

GD does the same -- the press release announcing the original contract award from KAI just said 3-barreled 20mm gun, for example.

Tony, I assume you've seen this already, but just in case, here is a GD NDIA brief on some of the changes in the feed mechanism for the T/A-50 installation: https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgov...gun_missile/GMWedPM1/FletcherPresentation.pdf
 

TomS

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Tony, I assume you've seen this already, but just in case, here is a GD NDIA brief on some of the changes in the feed mechanism for the T/A-50 installation: https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgov...gun_missile/GMWedPM1/FletcherPresentation.pdf
No, I hadn't seen it - thanks for the link.

Quite welcome. One more, then, with a lot of the same slides, but some other info on the origin of the various gun system elements. The M197 did contribute the mid-barrel clamp and rotor tracks, but almost all of the rest of the gun proper seems to be from the M61A2. The feed side is a hybrid between the F-15 and F-16.

 
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Maro.Kyo

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The attack version of the plane (A-50) is fitted with a three-barrel version of the M61A2 six-barrel cannon, developed by GD. As far as I know, this does not have a designation, other than A-50. Does anyone know more?
Just found out that the ROKA DoD also calls it a "M61 variant" as well. Maybe they've internally named it something like a "M61A3" as well, who knows? I'll check out the ROKA DoD documents regarding logistics and ask a few people as well, though don't expect much from me. :rolleyes:
 

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I suspect that the closest matches to this gun are the experimental XM301 intended for the RAH-66 Comanche recce helicopter of the 1990s, and the current XM915 for the US Army’s Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (a project announced in 2020). The exact relationship between these two guns is unclear, but they are both developed from the M61A2, have three barrels, and fire at up to 1,500 rpm.

It should be noted that the rate of fire of these guns is limited by the installation and ammo feed arrangements rather than the guns themselves. For instance, the M197 can fire at up to 1,500 rpm in a gunpod, but only 750 rpm in a belt-fed turret.
 

GTX

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If anyone thought the JF-17 even had a chance they were kidding themselves. Safe money...very safe...is on the T-50/FA-50. Mind you the rumour of ex-Kuwaiti Hornets could overtake this as well. I suppose it all comes down to the reality of the Malaysian budget situation.
 

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In 2023, Korea Aerospace Industries is slated to launch deliveries of orders secured in 2021 from Indonesia (TA-50 trainers worth KRW137.2bn) and Thailand (T-50 trainers worth KRW74.8bn). Potential FA-50 orders from Senegal (KRW176.4bn) and Malaysia (KRW235.2bn) expected in 1Q22 are reflected in our 2023 earnings forecasts. As for domestic operations, sales from the KF-21 project will likely climb 20.7% YoY to KRW1.2tr. The company should also book new sales from the development of mine countermeasures helicopters (KRW59.5bn) and marine attack helicopters (KRW112bn). Aircraft parts sales are projected at KRW889.5bn (+19.1%YoY).
 

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GTX

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Out of date info given the K-2 deal won't occur. They are getting M1A2 SEP V3 instead - potentially up to 600. I suspect the T-50 info is also out of date.
From what I know It's the complete opposite. These news only recently came out based on the developments wrt the Polish MoND visit to Korea. Also the K-2 related discourse is closely related to Wilk and recent handover of T-72s to Ukraine and the gap which formed as a result. Purchase of M1A2 was a different matter.

FA-50 related news only came out end of this May for the first time as well. Before that, the last time anything related to Poland concerning T-50 was reported was when they were looking for new trainers and that's a few years ago. Allegedy, Italy is also offering their M-346FA.

Obviously I'm not trying to argue that there's anything really concrete regarding these deals but at least they aren't resused scripts afaik.
 
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helmutkohl

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Out of date info given the K-2 deal won't occur. They are getting M1A2 SEP V3 instead - potentially up to 600. I suspect the T-50 info is also out of date.
From what I know It's the complete opposite. These news only recently came out based on the developments wrt the Polish MoND visit to Korea. Also the K-2 related discourse is closely related to Wilk and recent handover of T-72s to Ukraine and the gap which formed as a result. Purchase of M1A2 was a different matter.

FA-50 related news only came out end of this May for the first time as well. Before that, the last time anything related to Poland concerning T-50 was reported was when they were looking for new trainers and that's a few years ago. Allegedy, Italy is also offering their M-346FA.

Obviously I'm not trying to argue that there's anything really concrete regarding these deals but at least they aren't resused scripts afaik.
yeah I've been hearing the same thing from the Polish circles

the M1 deal is separate from the K-2, and they are either going to go for a 2 tank type fleet
or go all in on M1s. But that the K2 was preferred but they needed something ASAP and settled for an early buy of M1s
 

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the M1 deal is separate from the K-2, and they are either going to go for a 2 tank type fleet
or go all in on M1s. But that the K2 was preferred but they needed something ASAP and settled for an early buy of M1s
The news I am hearing is that they are going for a single type fleet of up to 600 M1A2 Sep V3. The order for the first 250 is already in the system.
 

helmutkohl

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seems like Poland just signed an MoU for Korean tanks and other armored vehicles.
no idea if it also expands to the Golden Eagle jets yet

 

helmutkohl

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2022070512550347759.jpg

supposedly this is a FA-50 from the Black Eagle performance squadron, being sent to the UK?

2022070512551953826.jpg
 

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seems like Poland just signed an MoU for Korean tanks and other armored vehicles.
no idea if it also expands to the Golden Eagle jets yet

Frankly speaking, it sounds they should've probably went for "F-50" despite with KF-X.
Apparently export market alone would've made this endeavor profitable.
 

helmutkohl

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From the newly announced news about the purchase of FA-50 by Poland, it has been revealed that the Polish version would be basesd on Block 20. Currently there are two upgraded variants of FA-50, one being the Block 10 and other being 20.

Block 10 is more of a modest imporvement of ground attack capabilities, signified by integration of Sniper ATP.

Block 20 on the other hand represents significant improvements on air-to-air capabilities, most notably the integration of a new AESA radar(yet to be determined if LIG wpuld be chosen or Hanwha. LIG's design is more advanced, although it lacks the commonality Hanwha's offer have to existing KF-21 radar) and AMRAAM. Block 20 has still not been realised due to added costs and more importantly lack of ROKAF interest.

It was previously rumored that the offer to Malaysia is based on Block 20, mainly due to the proposed program cost being noticably higher than previous export history. Now there are not much known about the Malaysian LWF program, apart from that with various military and economical offsets, India and their Tejas offer has claimed the high ground.

Polish are also planning to use their FA-50s as LIFTs, essentially the same way ROKAF utilises their TA-50. ROKAF have already seen extensive benefits of changes imposed on the training curriculum by the addition of TA-50, especially in terms of the operating costs and downtime of combat aircraft. More specifically, with TA-50 ROKAF was able to shorten CRT phase of KF-16 pilot training from 27 weeks of 48 sorties to just 8 weeks of 9 sorties, bulk of which now replaced by 21 weeks of LIFT training on TA-50, also reducing 3 weeks of total training time. Poland would be able to expect the same.

Arguably, Poland could achieve the same LIFT training benefits with M-346FA, since Italians are already using M-346 for that exact purpose alongside more modest M-345, but that would be a far less combat capable option.
 

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I’m also guessing the FA-50 is much easier to transfer over to from F-16s than MiG-29s.
I doubt any of these new toys would go to Ukraine. Poland is raising their defense budget to 3% of their GDP now, and is hellbent on replacing every bit of Warsaw Pact era gear and expanding the size of their armed forces by several hundred thousand personal.
Sorry, by “transfer over” I meant pilots going through the F-16 training system, and the system itself, would be much more amenable to supporting FA-50 training. Poland can start running down its MiG-29 training and possibly transfer it and equipment to Ukraine, if politically feasible.
Ah no worries! I agree with your viewpoints; it'll be interesting to see how their M-346 fleet fairs in the future.
Indeed! Future synergies would favour dropping them for the T-50, but maybe not in the short-term.
Sorry for moving the conversation. I think it's more appropriate here nonetheless.

I've heard some rumors surrounding complaints from the Polish forum regarding M-346, ranging from simple delays to problems concerning on-board simulators. I wasn't able to confirm how genuine those rumors are though.
 
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helmutkohl

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indeed it is interesting that Poland already operates the M-346FA but still went with the FA-50
given the smaller ranges of Polands air space, the FA-50 or M-346FA could be useful air police aircraft as well
 

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indeed it is interesting that Poland already operates the M-346FA but still went with the FA-50
given the smaller ranges of Polands air space, the FA-50 or M-346FA could be useful air police aircraft as well
I don’t believe the variant Poland operates is the FA/TA, rather the regular trainer variant without combat capacity
 

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I don’t believe the variant Poland operates is the FA/TA, rather the regular trainer variant without combat capacity
That might indicate that the M-346 is intended for the advanced or even intermediate jet trainer role, with the FA-50 intended for LIFT, air policing, and then during wartime as a light attack CAS/BAI aircraft. Similar to how the Alpha Jet was meant to be used.

Although with AESA and potentially Meteor it may be a nasty little air defense fighter as well as an attack aircraft. Sort of a poor man's Gripen.
 

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indeed it is interesting that Poland already operates the M-346FA but still went with the FA-50
given the smaller ranges of Polands air space, the FA-50 or M-346FA could be useful air police aircraft as well

I had not realized that. They are the only country in the world to have both trainers, I wonder if that's not going to end a little expensive for them ? talk about a training school, starts from M346 then move into T-50 and finally, into F-35. I kind of like that Polish air force.
 
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