Izumo Class 22DDH Helicopter Destroyer

donnage99 said:
there are great progresses among the current conservative admins of both countries but still a long way to go between fostering an military alliance at a level where shared development is on the table
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And even then, like why?
 
trose213 said:
donnage99 said:
there are great progresses among the current conservative admins of both countries but still a long way to go between fostering an military alliance at a level where shared development is on the table
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And even then, like why?
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as some one from Japan, basically

Korea - There are a lot of people still upset at history and colonialization and what is perceived as insufficient apologies/reparations. Additionally, nationalistic sentiment is quite strong in Korea. Much of Asia, but especially Korea. Their "conservative" parties are generally willing to work with Japan, but do not entirely forgive. But some of the past agreements on issues, such as comfort women, were done under them. Their "liberal" parties on the other hand, tend to have a more softer tone towards North Korea, and a more aggressive tone towards Japan. They tend to bring up historical issues more often and are less open to working with Japan.

Japan - A lot of the older generation and conservative types, especially those you find in the country side, look down on Koreans. They have a lot of negative stereotypes about them, and some even believe in racial superiority over them. As there are many Koreans in Japan, many had a lot of limitations on what they could do for employment, and because of that, Koreans in Japan had to work in areas such as gambling establishments, etc. This gave them a negative image as well. The constant demands for apologies, as well as some of the Korean nationalism (which can be absurd at times), also gives ammunition for the anti-Korean types in Japan.
these days its changing, thanks to Korean soft-power via Dramas and Pop music, women of all ages and youth from both gender, really love Korea now. Korea is the IN thing, all the teens and young adults here dress like BTS.
that said, the country's ruling party, the LDP caters to the old/rural people. Japan's electoral system gives too much voting power to these areas, and so they can't be seen as being too Korea friendly either.
Japan's more liberal leaning parties on the other hand, seem to be more pan-Asian and open to Korea, but the LDP simply has too much power.

Ideally for rapprochement between the two to speed up, you'd want a "conservative" Korean party and a "liberal" Japanese party.
(I put this in quotations because liberal and conservative in Korea and Japan mean different things than the west)

it'll probably be 2 more generations before things really normalize between the two. But by then, probably most of those staunch older generations in Japan would have passed on, while in Korea, public opinion has shifted considerably from anti-Japan to anti-PRC.
 
Optimistic view seeing as 'relations' between the Greeks and Turks are still delicate. A bit like Rangers and Celtic fans, or Millwall fans and everyone else.
 
Foo Fighter said:
Optimistic view seeing as 'relations' between the Greeks and Turks are still delicate. A bit like Rangers and Celtic fans, or Millwall fans and everyone else.
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It just looks like the increasing histrionics of the PRC will help them find a common interest.
 
Rumors are true

they definitely changed the bow of the ship

its now straighter and flatter

before it was more trapezoidal. It also looks like they got rid of the gun?
I am wondering how much more deck space this gives

it certainly looks a lot different than the remodel of her sister ship, the Izumo
which seems to have kept the original bow shape and gun
Pictures_of_the_new_Japanese_aircraft_carrier_JS_Izumo.jpg
 
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helmutkohl said:
Rumors are true

they definitely changed the bow of the ship

its now straighter and flatter

before it was more trapezoidal. It also looks like they got rid of the gun?
I am wondering how much more deck space this gives

it certainly looks a lot different than the remodel of her sister ship, the Izumo
which seems to have kept the original bow shape and gun
Pictures_of_the_new_Japanese_aircraft_carrier_JS_Izumo.jpg
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It was confirmed for quite a long time that both ships would have their bows reshaped, so not really a rumor. Just the Izumo got an expedited first modification to keep at least 1 ship in class operational while the other one was modified.

Izumo got the heat protected deck first to operate V-22s and later down the line F-35s, and also some electrical equipment for F-35 operation. Kaga got the first big overhaul with the same heat coating, JPALS, and reshaped bow. In 2025 the Izumo will have her bow reshaped, PALS added, and interior modified for F-35 maintenance. Then finally Kaga will go back and have her interior redone in 2027.

As for deck space, the overall length was increased as well and should have roughly the deck space of an America LHD. Likely a little more than the Americas since it's island is absolutely massive in length and width.

The front CWIS wasn't removed and just stuck in the starboard corner of the deck where it won't affect flight operations. It just hasn't been refitted after the change, but you can see it's base where it will sit in the pics posted.
 
news.yahoo.co.jp

海上自衛隊の護衛艦かが、艦首が四角形になった姿で初めて出渠　F35B搭載に向けて軽空母化改修着々と（高橋浩祐） - エキスパート - Yahoo!ニュース

ステルス戦闘機F35Bの搭載に向け、広島県呉市内の事業所で改修中だった海上自衛隊のいずも型護衛艦2番艦「かが」が4月20日、ほぼ1年ぶりに出渠した。艦首が四角形に改修され、前甲板部分が以前と大きく変わ
news.yahoo.co.jp news.yahoo.co.jp
Some more info on Kaga. Conversion will still be carried out through the end of 2023, but likely doesn't need the dry dock anymore.
 
Kota said:
news.yahoo.co.jp

海上自衛隊の護衛艦かが、艦首が四角形になった姿で初めて出渠　F35B搭載に向けて軽空母化改修着々と（高橋浩祐） - エキスパート - Yahoo!ニュース

ステルス戦闘機F35Bの搭載に向け、広島県呉市内の事業所で改修中だった海上自衛隊のいずも型護衛艦2番艦「かが」が4月20日、ほぼ1年ぶりに出渠した。艦首が四角形に改修され、前甲板部分が以前と大きく変わ
news.yahoo.co.jp news.yahoo.co.jp
Some more info on Kaga. Conversion will still be carried out through the end of 2023, but likely doesn't need the dry dock anymore.
Click to expand...
Huh....

From Wednesday, April 6, 2022, Yahoo! JAPAN will no longer be available from the European Economic Area (EEA) and the United Kingdom​

Click to expand...
 
Forest Green said:
Kota said:
news.yahoo.co.jp

海上自衛隊の護衛艦かが、艦首が四角形になった姿で初めて出渠　F35B搭載に向けて軽空母化改修着々と（高橋浩祐） - エキスパート - Yahoo!ニュース

ステルス戦闘機F35Bの搭載に向け、広島県呉市内の事業所で改修中だった海上自衛隊のいずも型護衛艦2番艦「かが」が4月20日、ほぼ1年ぶりに出渠した。艦首が四角形に改修され、前甲板部分が以前と大きく変わ
news.yahoo.co.jp news.yahoo.co.jp
Some more info on Kaga. Conversion will still be carried out through the end of 2023, but likely doesn't need the dry dock anymore.
Click to expand...
Huh....

From Wednesday, April 6, 2022, Yahoo! JAPAN will no longer be available from the European Economic Area (EEA) and the United Kingdom​

Click to expand...
Click to expand...

yeah, its blocked. When I visited Denmark not too long ago, i couldn't access it without a VPN.

since im from Japan, here's a copy and paste of the yahoo article

海上自衛隊の護衛艦かが、艦首が四角形になった姿で初めて出渠　F35B搭載に向けて軽空母化改修着々と​

uUzvQ3lML_bkIqyakc1vFlHZ-lVjSCI3npXVYKE5vkgK0hRmLwT_-ubgwki4aCOCFDKjPLVs-Jyye7FNlkYMYl52lGIJqROSvnSFXU38TvX13t8-_ZLUiV_3bQpG0_mXce4zg6WE9c4Za_jFdKSTccVVJxwm4ot8lO2X1kdxMhBY8U8kP52LCAH2uPTIFcy8

高橋浩祐
英軍事週刊誌ジェーンズ・ディフェンス・ウィークリー東京特派員
4/20(木) 14:43

艦首が四角形に改修され、約1年ぶりに出渠した護衛艦かが（秋山健さん撮影、提供）
ステルス戦闘機F35Bの搭載に向け、広島県呉市内の事業所で改修中だった海上自衛隊のいずも型護衛艦2番艦「かが」が4月20日、ほぼ1年ぶりに出渠した。艦首が四角形に改修され、前甲板部分が以前と大きく変わった姿で初めてドックを出た。軽空母化改修が着々と進んできたことがうかがえる。

海自関係者によると、今回の出渠は一時的なもので、「かが」の1回目の軽空母化改修は今年度中は続く。現段階では、艦首右舷の前甲板先端にある高性能20mm機関砲（ファランクスCIWS）が台座だけになっていたり、外舷塗装もまだらになっていたりする。艦番号の「184」も記されていない。足場などの作業用構築物も残ったままになっている。今回出渠した理由は分かっていない。
艦首が四角形に改修され、約1年ぶりに出渠した護衛艦かが。左舷がぐんと拡張されたことがよく分かる（「呉湾艦船めぐり」撮影、提供）
政府は2023年度予算で、いずも型護衛艦1番艦「いずも」と2番艦「かが」に短距離離陸と垂直着陸が可能なF35Bを搭載できるよう、改修費として52億円を計上した。

「いずも」と「かが」の改修は、5年に一度実施される大規模な定期検査を利用して、それぞれ2回にわたって行われている。

海上幕僚監部広報室によると、海自呉基地を母港にする「かが」は昨年3月にジャパンマリンユナイテッド呉事業所の修理ドックに入渠し、軽空母化に向けての1回目の改修工事が始まった。具体的には「いずも」で既に実施された飛行甲板上の耐熱塗装や標識塗装などに加えて、「いずも」に先駆けて艦首形状を四角形に変更する工事が実施されてきた。

もともとの艦首は台形。海幕によると、細い先端部分での乱気流を抑えてF35Bを安全に運用するために、甲板を横に付け足して四角形にすることが必要となっていた。

艦首が四角形に改修され、約1年ぶりに出渠した護衛艦かが（「呉湾艦船めぐり」撮影、提供）
この「かが」の1回目の改修は今年度に終わる予定だ。2回目の改修は2026、2027の両年度に実施される。

「かが」の2回目の改修に向け、防衛省は今年度、着艦誘導装置を取得する。また、飛行甲板にある標識灯火灯を改造するほか、温度計測装置の工事を実施する。さらに衛星通信装置も改造する。

艦首が四角形に改修され、約1年ぶりに出渠した護衛艦かが。左舷がぐんと拡張されたことがよく分かる（秋山健さん撮影、提供）
なお、防衛省によると、今年度のいずも型軽空母化改修費52億円の中には米軍からの技術支援経費も含まれている。

防衛省は2024年度から宮崎県新富町にある航空自衛隊新田原基地へのF35Bの配備を予定している。

a quick translation...

The destroyer Kaga, whose bow has been refitted to a square shape, docked for the first time in almost a year (photo by Ken Akiyama, courtesy)
On April 20, the second Izumo-class destroyer of the Maritime Self-Defense Force, the Izumo class destroyer "Kaga," which was undergoing refit at a plant in Kure City, Hiroshima Prefecture, to accommodate the F35B stealth fighter, docked for the first time in almost a year. The bow of the ship was modified to a square shape, and the foredeck left the dock for the first time with a much different appearance than before. The ship's conversion to a light aircraft carrier has been progressing steadily.

According to officials of the Maritime Self-Defense Force, the docking is temporary, and the first refit of the "Kaga" to become a light aircraft carrier will continue during this fiscal year. At this stage, the high-performance 20mm phalanx CIWS located at the tip of the foredeck on the starboard side of the bow is only on a pedestal, and the exterior paintwork is still uneven. The ship number "184" is also not marked. Scaffolding and other working structures are still in place. The reason for the docking is not known.
The destroyer Kaga, with her bow modified to a square shape, has docked for the first time in about a year. The port side of the ship has been enlarged (photo taken and provided by "Kure Bay Ship Tour").
The government has allocated 5.2 billion yen in the fiscal 2023 budget to upgrade the first and second Izumo class destroyers, the Izumo and the Kaga, to be equipped with the F35B, which is capable of short takeoffs and vertical landings.

The "Izumo" and "Kaga" are being upgraded twice each, taking advantage of large-scale periodic inspections that are conducted every five years.

According to the Public Relations Office of the Maritime Staff Office, the "KAGA," which is based at Kure Air Base, entered the repair dock of Japan Marine United's Kure Shipyard last March, and the first round of refurbishment work to convert it into a light aircraft carrier began. Specifically, in addition to the heat-resistant painting and sign painting on the flight deck that had already been carried out on the "Izumo," work to change the shape of the bow to a rectangle was carried out prior to the "Izumo.

The original bow was trapezoidal. According to the naval staff, in order to suppress turbulence at the narrow tip and safely operate the F35B, it was necessary to add a deck to the side to make it a square shape.

The destroyer Kaga, whose bow was modified to be square, docked for the first time in about a year (photo taken and provided by "Kure Bay Ship Tour").
The first refit of the Kaga is scheduled to be completed this fiscal year, and the second refit will take place in fiscal years 2026 and 2027.

For the second refit of the "KAGA," the Ministry of Defense will acquire a landing guidance system this fiscal year. In addition, the signaling lights on the flight deck will be modified, and work will also be carried out on temperature measurement equipment. In addition, satellite communication equipment will be modified.

The destroyer Kaga has been refitted with a square bow and has docked for the first time in about a year. The port side of the ship has been enlarged (photo by Ken Akiyama, courtesy of the Ministry of Defense).
According to the Ministry of Defense, the 5.2 billion yen spent this fiscal year to upgrade the Izumo to a light aircraft carrier includes the cost of technical assistance from the U.S. military.

The Ministry of Defense plans to deploy F35Bs to the Air Self-Defense Force's Nittahara Air Base in Shintomi Town, Miyazaki Prefecture, starting in FY2024.
 
isnt that a bad location to have the ski jump, since its potentially affecting landing spots, than had it been moved more forward
 
helmutkohl said:
isnt that a bad location to have the ski jump, since its potentially affecting landing spots, than had it been moved more forward
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I think so. The QE class has their ski jump all the way forward, but a flat deck to starboard.
 
It's not an actually proposed design for them, just a fan design. The Izumo class for sure is not getting any major structural changes for the rest of their service life after the F-35 conversions finish. The more realistic option would be a new class which would likely be a CATOBAR based on Kawasaki's gigacell EMALS system rather than the ski jump. GCAP is in an awkward place where all 3 main members operate aircraft carriers, but they are STOVL designs, so a CV version is possible, but unlikely.
 
Kota said:
It's not an actually proposed design for them, just a fan design. The Izumo class for sure is not getting any major structural changes for the rest of their service life after the F-35 conversions finish. The more realistic option would be a new class which would likely be a CATOBAR based on Kawasaki's gigacell EMALS system rather than the ski jump. GCAP is in an awkward place where all 3 main members operate aircraft carriers, but they are STOVL designs, so a CV version is possible, but unlikely.
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any reason why Kawasaki is invested in EMALS? do they plan to install some light version on the existing class for drone? or is there serious interest in a CATOBAR ship?

as for GCAP, there's been some rumblings that the Royal Navy wants to install catapults.. but whether its a small one for just drones or a full size one, remains to be seen. But there is a possibility a EMALS ready GCAP for UK and Japan.
If not, there is always the F-35C as an option as well.
 
helmutkohl said:
any reason why Kawasaki is invested in EMALS? do they plan to install some light version on the existing class for drone? or is there serious interest in a CATOBAR ship?
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Probably to get ahead in the game. One thing that the new JMSDF carrier groups are going to lack with the Izumo's in organic AWACS/EW capability. Japan already has one of the largest E-3 fleets behind the US, so it makes sense to prep for a future CATOBAR carrier purely for that capability. If you look at the old JMSDF DDH/CV thread or https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/海上自衛隊の航空母艦建造構想
Japan has been trying to revive their carrier force since the 50s and they are finally getting that jumping off point with the Izumo's and will only expand from there.
helmutkohl said:
as for GCAP, there's been some rumblings that the Royal Navy wants to install catapults.. but whether its a small one for just drones or a full size one, remains to be seen. But there is a possibility a EMALS ready GCAP for UK and Japan.
If not, there is always the F-35C as an option as well.
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That is still up in the air, but it's not something that can be trusted enough to pull a France and demand a CV variant for everyone else to pay for. The F-35C would make the most sense until either the UK or Italy announces some kind of CATOBAR carrier.
 
The JASDF has 5 E-2Ds, with 8 more on order.

These are to replace their E-2C fleet.

So they already have the carrier-based AEW&C aircraft taken care of.
 
Question. are these E-2Cs and Ds the same as the US Navy (with all the correct landing gears, arrestor hook, etc)
or were they modified to have them removed?
 
helmutkohl said:
any reason why Kawasaki is invested in EMALS? do they plan to install some light version on the existing class for drone? or is there serious interest in a CATOBAR ship?
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EMALs means that you don't need an expensive steam plant to be able to use catapults, whether a light cat for drones or a full CATOBAR conversion.

I expect that the next class of Helicopter Destroyers will have one or two cats to be able to launch E-2s.
 
helmutkohl said:
Question. are these E-2Cs and Ds the same as the US Navy (with all the correct landing gears, arrestor hook, etc)
or were they modified to have them removed?
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There was no reason to design new landing gear just for the JASDF - nor to remove the tailhook, as that works just fine for the land-based runway-end arresting gear (see the lighter tailhooks on the USAF's fighters).
 

Japan Announces 7-Month, Dual Big Deck Deployment, USS Carl Vinson Heading to RIMPAC
Dzirhan Mahadzir April 16, 2024 5:27 PM
The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force will dispatch both its Izumo-class big decks on their largest deployment to date, officials said on Tuesday.
Previous Indo-Pacific Deployments featured single Izumo or Hyuga-class big decks for four to five months.

Meanwhile, the Theodore Roosevelt Carrier Strike Group (CSG) wrapped up drills with the JMSDF on Saturday. The German military on Tuesday revealed that the Carl Vinson CSG will take part in the Rim of the Pacific 2024 exercise near Hawaii this summer.

A total of six surface ships – destroyer carriers JS Izumo (DDH-183) and JS Kaga (DDH-184), destroyers JS Ariake (DD-109) and JS Haguro (DD-180), amphibious landing ship JS Kunisaki (LST-4003) and frigate JS Noshiro (FFM-3) – divided into 4 surface mission units with embarked JMSDF Special Boarding Units, two P-1 Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) divided into two air units and an undisclosed number of submarines will deploy separately in a 7-month period beginning May 3 and ending on Dec. 15, according to a JMSDF announcement.

.....

The first surface unit includes Kunisaki and its integral two Landing Craft Air Cushions under the command of Rear Adm. Izuru Ikeuchi, the commander of the JMSDF Mine Warfare Force. The JMSDF’s amphibious ships are all under the Mine Warfare Force. The second surface unit includes Izumo, Ariake and Haguro under the command of Escort Flotilla 3 commanding officer Rear. Adm. Kazushi Yokota, while Noshiro forms the third surface unit headed by Noshiro’s commanding officer, Cdr. Tetsunobu Hori. Kaga rounds out IPD 24 as the fourth surface unit, headed by Kaga’s commanding officer, Capt. Shusaku Takeuchi.

Countries visited during the deployment will include Australia, Fiji, French Polynesia, India, Kiribati, Palau, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Tonga, the United States and Vanuatu. The visit to Tonga will include participation in the Tonga Royal Navy’s 50th Anniversary Fleet Review and Japan is currently in discussions with other countries for additional visits. Exercises that IPD 24 units will participate in are Marara, RIMPAC, Pacific Dragon, Pacific Vanguard, Kakadu, Pacific Partnership and Malabar.

.....

Kaga’s participation in IPD 24 is the ship’s first deployment since it completed the first stage of modification work last month to enable the helicopter destroyer to operate F-35B fighters. Work on Kaga also included modifying the bow’s shape to a square to better facilitate F-35B operations. Izumo’s bow will get modified when it enters the second stage of the update. Kaga is expected to be the Izumo-class carrier that will conduct F-35B integration trials on the US East Coast in November this year.
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