Joly / Délémontez - Pre-Jodel Predecessor Projects and Designs

cluttonfred

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Wonderful, and only one with any hint of what we imagine today as the "Jodel look." Thanks for sharing!
 

Jemiba

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We should be more precise here, I think: The brand "Jodel" was named after TWO men, Édouard Joly and Jean
Délémontez and at least the first two designs can be attributed to Joly only, as can be read on the Ferriere site.
Actually, the "Société Avions Jodel" didn't start their existence before 1946, so principally there are no designs,
that fit this section here.
Nevertheless, thaose are interesting designs, especially that military trainer, but as it is described as "in a class
with the SIPA S.11", it probably is a postwar design. Not quite sure about that high wing single seater, may actually
be the design be Délémontez mentioned here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13452.msg133171.html#msg133171.

To prevent the history of aviation to be re-written, I've merged this thread with "little known French projects"
thread.
 

cluttonfred

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Actually, given the significance of the Jodel designs, which gave birth to the production wood-and-fabric Robin aircraft among others, why not leave it as a separate topic, maybe "Joly + Délémontez = Jodel - projects, prototypes and precursors." It would be nice to have the complete D.XXX series and the unbuilt and one-off prototypes and early Délémontez designs highlighted in one thread.
 

cluttonfred

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It's worth noting that the first of those Délémontez sketches posted by Hesham includes the caption:

Projet dit "aile vivante" de biplace de formule Mignet. L'aile est à incidence variable, il n'y a ni gouvernail de profondeur, ni ailerons
OR
Mignet-formula "living wing" two-seater project. The wing features variable incidence, there is neither an elevator nor ailerons
In fact, this may be something of a hybrid in that the usual Mignet configuration is to use the front wing incidence for pitch control and have no roll control at all. It's not clear from the sketch whether there is one or a pair of pushrods between the turtledeck and the wing trailing edge, but from the arrangement of the struts and the clear division of the wing in two halves, there MAY have been an intention to use differential variable incidence for roll control as well.

But what the heck are the little angled winglets in front of the wingtips?!?

Neat!

Cheers,

Matthew
 

Jemiba

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"...why not leave it as a separate topic, maybe "Joly + Délémontez = Jodel - projects, prototypes and precursors." )"

Ok, why not ?
BTW, the trainer design, as a full metal and miliktary aircraft is very different from the later Jodel aircraft. Maybe it goes back
to Délémontez time with the "bureau d'étude de l'Atelier Industriel de l'Armée" (Army Industrial Design Office) mentioned in
the Ferriere link ?
 

hesham

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Thank you my dears for your explanations.
 

cluttonfred

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Thanks, gents, for the initial post and the reshuffle. On the military trainer, you're right, of course, about the construction and size, I was referring to the signature Jodel straight center section and tapered and cranked outer panels.
 

hesham

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The Series from D.1 to D.8;

the D.1 was a single seat high-parasol wing monoplane,D.2 was developed from it,but
a two-seat version,D.3 was two seat high-wing monoplane and D.4 was a tandem two-
seat low-wing monoplane,intended as military trainer.

The D.5 was derivative of D.1,with closed cabin,D.6 was a motor glider,D.7 was a two-
seat high wing monoplane and D.8 was a three-seat closed cabin high-wing monoplane,
but most of them remained a Projects.

As I think,I repeat sending the same drawings,with ID for each one,if I was wrong,please
tell me.

Avions 144
 

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cluttonfred

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Great stuff, hesham, but are you sure that the D.5 was not a derivative of the high-wing tractor D.3 rather than the pusher D.1?
 

hesham

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My dear Cluttonfred,

I am sure,but maybe they change the shape,or the D.5 was not it,and it was
unknown Project ?.
 

Apophenia

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Yes, the D 5 was derived from the D 1 (not the D 3) and was to be fitted with the D 1's 27 cv AVA motor.

However, Richard Ferriere identifies the "D.1" photo as the Joly E-1 motorglider (created using the wings of an AVIA XIA primary training glider and a 25 hp Poinsard motor). Image "D.2" is Édouard Joly's 1944 CAB 44 motorglider study, not the Délémontez D 2.

BTW, Délémontez considered a biplane version of the D 2 in 1938-1939. The D.3 2-seater study was to have a 35 cv engine. The D 4 was to be a small 2-seat tandem low-winged trainer of metal construction powered by a 32 cv engine.

Source: Avions Jodel: du D1 de 1936 au DR400 de 1996, Xavier Massé, Nouvelles éditions latines, 2000
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Apophenia,

and was their any drawings or pictures to them ?.
 

Apophenia

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The book's artwork is the same as that reproduced by Richard Ferriere. The sketches are signed "odile 92". I'm not sure who that is ... perhaps Odile Barbazan?
 

hesham

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OK and thanks to you my dear Apophenia.
 

hesham

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That's meaning,we don't know what was this ?.
 

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hesham

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Thank you my dear Apophenia,

and was this a D.4 or not ?.
 

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Apophenia

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It is. I'm not sure why the caption compares it to the SIPA S.11 other than its general layout.

According to Xavier Massé, the D 4 was to have a 32 cv engine - less than 1/10th the power of the S.11's SNECMA/Renault 125 engine. Of course, Massé could be wrong about the planned powerplant ... that cowling does look rather large!
 

hesham

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That's my point my dear Apophenia.
 

cluttonfred

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There is definitely some sort of misunderstanding here. I can't imagine any circumstances under which a 32 hp engine would be suitable for a two-seat military trainer, especially not during that time period.
 

Apophenia

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Agreed. The cowling looks too large ... and most 32 cv powerplants of that time are 2-cylinder horizontally-opposed engines like that of the D 5.
 

hesham

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Apophenia said:
Agreed. The cowling looks too large ... and most 32 cv powerplants of that time are 2-cylinder horizontally-opposed engines like that of the D 5.
My dear Apophenia;

that was my thought from your early reply.
 

avion ancien

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That looks like a development of the Joly Motoplaneur or E-1 of 1933. Here's a photograph of that which, I think, has its source in Les Ailes (but, regrettably, I don't have the issue date noted)
 

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hesham

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avion ancien said:
That looks like a development of the Joly Motoplaneur or E-1 of 1933. Here's a photograph of that which, I think, has its source in Les Ailes (but, regrettably, I don't have the issue date noted)
Yes my dear Avions,but maybe it looks like D.1 ?.
 
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