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Italian Dive Bomber Projects

lark

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Interesting Hesham,

Will you give us your source ?
 

lark

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Thanks Hesham...
 

Jemiba

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The Fiat Cr.44 and the CANSA glider seem at least to have doubled as torpedo bombers.
BTW, hesham, it would be better, if you'll give the precise link to the page, where you found
those projects, not just the cover page. Seems to be chronologically structured, but there
are lots of pages and we could get more information quicker then, via an online translator,
as far, as we don't know the russian language.
BTW, samples of the Japanese Secret Projects book and of Flitzers artwork, too, can be found,
perhaps one of our native russian speaking members can check, if at least credit is given ?
 

lucamax

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Dear Friends,
According to Aerofan N°100/2007 the Fiat Cr.44 was a project to realize a new "Fighter-Bomber" around the Giacosa A.44 engine, that it was a succesor of the experimental engine A.40 (Giacosa is better know as one the fathers of the First Fiat 500 "Topolino"). In the article is said the A.40 engine should have had a power at least of 1.920 hp at 6.000 meters and it was a 24 "X" pistons. According to Gioiosa, only 2 prototype of that engine have been built. The engine Fiat A.44, however, is very little know, and in the source is said only that the projects of the engine, never realized, started probably in the 1941and it was a 32 "X" pistons of 2.400 hp at 4.500 meters. Based on the new engine, Celestino Rosatelli, probably as a private venture, started even in 1941 the design of a new modern all-metal fighter with retractable carriage and a very complex strucutre. The aircraft would have a very big dimensions, with 15.6 m of wingspan, and a double contrary-rotating propeller. The armament of the aircraft was about 4 machineguns of 12.7 mm and 2 guns of 20 mm (all in the wings), plus the possibility of add a bomb of 500 kg. No data arrived about the performance, but the author of the article (Marco Comelli) says that the aircraft could reach probably 660 km/h.
Said that, the aircraft rule is obscure till now: according to the Aerofan iussue, in fact, the Cr.44 should be used like a fighter, the wingload was the same of the G.55, and used even like an attacker, but like the Tempest or the Typhoon not as a dive-bomber. The author supports this idea because in the drawings there are not airbrakes, even if some source, also an older Aerofan iussue, prefer qualify the plane as a dive-bomber. More: of the Cr.44 was studied also in a 2-seater version, but it is not know why: to refuse the idea of a trainer, it's possible that Rosatelli thought about a fast torpedo-bomber or a fast scout (in the project there was a photocamera location both in the single seater and the 2-seater).
After this explanetions, unfotunatly, the archives of Fiat remainds obscure, but it is said that they are working on an intense job of cataloging: the project, in any case, remaind a paper-craft. Even the engine did not pass the drawings table, but it is mentionated a study for a new Fiat Br 20 bomber with this engine, and the the program was soon terminated.
@moderators: in the article there are some drawings of the aircraft, but I don't know if I can post them because the copyright: tell me if I can or not post theese pictures.
On the web I found this color profile of the Cr.44: hope you'll like it!
 

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hesham

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Jemiba said:
The Fiat Cr.44 and the CANSA glider seem at least to have doubled as torpedo bombers.
BTW, hesham, it would be better, if you'll give the precise link to the page, where you found
those projects, not just the cover page. Seems to be chronologically structured, but there
are lots of pages and we could get more information quicker then, via an online translator,
as far, as we don't know the russian language.
BTW, samples of the Japanese Secret Projects book and of Flitzers artwork, too, can be found,
perhaps one of our native russian speaking members can check, if at least credit is given ?

OK my dear Jemiba,


and here is the source;


http://alternathistory.org.ua/andrea-kurami-i-dzhankarlo-garello-italyanskie-pikirovshchiki-chast-2-italyanskie-pikirovshchiki-vto
 

hesham

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Jemiba

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That's quite clearly a torpedo under the belly ?
And hesham, please, always mention the sources of drawing like that. That's not harassment, but
posting a photo/drawing or soemthing like this a a kind of a quotation and standard fare is at least
to give credit to the source. It's not necessary only, when you made it by yourself.
And another reason is, that maybe someone would like to have a look at that source, too. ;)
 

hesham

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OK my dear Jemiba;


http://alternathistory.org.ua/pikiruyushchii-bombardirovshchik-siai-marchetti-sm93
 

Jemiba

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Nico

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lucamax said:
Dear Friends,
According to Aerofan N°100/2007 the Fiat Cr.44 was a project to realize a new "Fighter-Bomber" around the Gioiosa A.44 engine, that it was a succesor of the experimental engine A.40 (Gioiosa is better know as one the fathers of the First Fiat 500 "Topolino"). In the article is said the A.40 engine should have had a power at least of 1.920 hp at 6.000 meters and it was a 24 "X" pistons. According to Gioiosa, only 2 prototype of that engine have been built. The engine Fiat A.44, however, is very little know, and in the source is said only that the projects of the engine, never realized, started probably in the 1941and it was a 32 "X" pistons of 2.400 hp at 4.500 meters. Based on the new engine, Celestino Rosatelli, probably as a private venture, started even in 1941 the design of a new modern all-metal fighter with retractable carriage and a very complex strucutre. The aircraft would have a very big dimensions, with 15.6 m of wingspan, and a double contrary-rotating propeller. The armament of the aircraft was about 4 machineguns of 12.7 mm and 2 guns of 20 mm (all in the wings), plus the possibility of add a bomb of 500 kg. No data arrived about the performance, but the author of the article (Marco Comelli) says that the aircraft could reach probably 660 km/h.
Said that, the aircraft rule is obscure till now: according to the Aerofan iussue, in fact, the Cr.44 should be used like a fighter, the wingload was the same of the G.55, and used even like an attacker, but like the Tempest or the Typhoon not as a dive-bomber. The author supports this idea because in the drawings there are not airbrakes, even if some source, also an older Aerofan iussue, prefer qualify the plane as a dive-bomber. More: of the Cr.44 was studied also in a 2-seater version, but it is not know why: to refuse the idea of a trainer, it's possible that Rosatelli thought about a fast torpedo-bomber or a fast scout (in the project there was a photocamera location both in the single seater and the 2-seater).
After this explanetions, unfotunatly, the archives of Fiat remainds obscure, but it is said that they are working on an intense job of cataloging: the project, in any case, remaind a paper-craft. Even the engine did not pass the drawings table, but it is mentionated a study for a new Fiat Br 20 bomber with this engine, and the the program was soon terminated.
@moderators: in the article there are some drawings of the aircraft, but I don't know if I can post them because the copyright: tell me if I can or not post theese pictures.
On the web I found this color profile of the Cr.44: hope you'll like it!

My dear Lucamax,
the correct spell for the surname of the "father of the 500" is Giacosa.
Notwhistanding that your post is very interesting
Nico
 

Silencer1

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Hi!


I have two questions, related to subject, but perhaps off-topic.
If administrators decided to move my post to "The Bar" - let it be.


So:
1) Regia Aeronautica and Italian aeronautical companies tries to design and produce "national" dive bomber type. I think, that Savoia-Marchetti SM-85 has been signle mass-produced type, and then Junkers Ju-87s became a standard type of dive-bombers.
Is this statement true?
Did Italy even need such type of bombers - or did they used extensively in main theatres of operations?


2) What differrence in Italian langauage between "names" of dive bombers: what "picchicatelli" and "tuffatori" exactly means?
Could someone write the widely used term for such type of aircraft?


Thanks in advance!
 

lucamax

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Dear Silencer1,
"Picchiatelli" was a nickname, given from the italian crews, of the Junkers Ju 87 "Stuka" in Regia Aeronautica service. "Tuffatori" was the name of the aircraft type, a sort of italian word for the "dive-bomber" concept.
The italian aeronautical companies tried to develop a good dive-bomber, but with poor success. The problem was, from my point of view, that the headquarters of the Regia Aeronautica preferred a conventional horizontal speedy bomber and the dive-bomber solutions were not appreciated much: so the few aricraft aviable to make this role were generally nor improved or supported by the Air Minister.
The Regia Aeronautica, however, used a lot of aircraft as "assaltatori", a role like the air-support or air-attacker, but generally with old fighters, especially with the Fiat Cr.42 and the Macchi Mc 200, and the results were not so good.
Only the Breda Ba 65 saw a limited action in North Africa, bur the aircraft was too much old and obsolete to make good things.
I think that the Regia Aeronautica needed more fighters, able even to carry a bomb if necessary for ground support (like the Fw 190), and the dive-bomber aircraft was, for the italian industrial capacity, a luxury.
Off course this is just my thought :)
 

Silencer1

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Dear Lucamax!


Thanks a lot for translation and explanation.
Seems, that was a large gap between the needs of Regia Aeronautica, the ideas of its' staff (partially inspired by some Luftwaffe types) and possibilities of Italian aircraft industry - from prototype' development to mass production.
The dive bombers in Italy didn't reaches the usefulness of the ones in foreign air forces, so assault versions of fighters (cheap and available) have been used, as you mentioned.
The same situation with heavy or night fighters - all attempts didn't bring the operational types - and gave some very impressive prototypes, mainly with German DB-engines.
 

hesham

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Hi,


as I know,the Breda Ba.67 was a project for dive bomber,but the Ba.66 was mentioned
beside Ba.65 in wikipedia sites,with no more details,I don't know if it was a ground
attack aircraft project,or a dive bomber.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rlandmann/JAE
 

hesham

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Hi,


here is the Breda Ba.201 alternative cockpit position drawings A & B,but the drawing A
was actually built.
 

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visvirtusvoluntas

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A further explanation about the word "Picchiatelli". It is a pun made combining the word Picchiata (that means nosedive, but also beaten) and the popular utterance "Picchiatello" that means "nutty boy" (literally beaten in the head).
 

hesham

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Hi,


here is the Ca.360 in details.
 

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Skybolt

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Folks, maybe Italian Secret Projects is being resrrected in full glory...
BTW, of the designs illustrated, the Cr-44 was a fighter-bomber, like an enlarged Typhoon/Tempest. Since I wrote the article cited by Lucamax in Aerofan (the last issue, alas) I am entitled to provide a correction: the A-44 was designed by Ing.Fessia, then head of the aeroengine division of FIAT. The a-44 was an H-design based on the cyliinder banks of the failed A-38. A-44 had 32 cylinder in four banks. Actually Giacoso was tangentially involved, because Fessia asked Giacosa to provide a back-up project. He designed an X-shape 24 cylinder engine, that was initially named A-41 and then A-42. At armistice time a prototype had been built and was to start ground testing. The A-44 status is more uncertain, but there are hints that it was running in test configuration and a score of protoypes had been ordered.
Of the Caproni-Vizzola projects, Sagittario II (from late April renamed Arciere II, guess why, Nico) was probably a dive bomber and assaltatore. Sagittario I (later Arciere I) was an high-altitude fighter. Actually it is not so sure that the intended engine was to be the DB-605D.... perhaps it was an Italian turbocompressor coupled with a normal DB-605 (or even a license built RA-1050).
 

hesham

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Many thanks to you my dear Skybolt for your explanations,


and we miss your interesting articles.
 

Skybolt

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Thank Hesham. Quoting Terminator Schwarzenegger, "I'll be back"
 

lark

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Let there be light.... welcome back Marco!
 

Nico

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Skybolt said:
Folks, maybe Italian Secret Projects is being resrrected in full glory...
BTW, of the designs illustrated, the Cr-44 was a fighter-bomber, like an enlarged Typhoon/Tempest. Since I wrote the article cited by Lucamax in Aerofan (the last issue, alas) I am entitled to provide a correction: the A-44 was designed by Ing.Fessia, then head of the aeroengine division of FIAT. The a-44 was an H-design based on the cyliinder banks of the failed A-38. A-44 had 32 cylinder in four banks. Actually Giacoso was tangentially involved, because Fessia asked Giacosa to provide a back-up project. He designed an X-shape 24 cylinder engine, that was initially named A-41 and then A-42. At armistice time a prototype had been built and was to start ground testing. The A-44 status is more uncertain, but there are hints that it was running in test configuration and a score of protoypes had been ordered.
Of the Caproni-Vizzola projects, Sagittario II (from late April renamed Arciere II, guess why, Nico) was probably a dive bomber and assaltatore. Sagittario I (later Arciere I) was an high-altitude fighter. Actually it is not so sure that the intended engine was to be the DB-605D.... perhaps it was an Italian turbocompressor coupled with a normal DB-605 (or even a license built RA-1050).

Yes Sky,
I think you called me to witness as you know my "penchant" for aircraft onomatology and for the Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario (late Sergio Govi, most prolific author about Officine Reggiane wrote that only the RE 2005 form was the correct one).
In fact Sagittario, the Zodiacal Sign (the name is Latine for archer) was a frequent name in Italy, as Falco (hawk) or Lince (Lynx). In Caproni group names there were other changes: RE 2000 became Falco I as there was already a Falco (the FIAT CR.42); probably (as I don't know any document about that matter) the RE 2001 was intended for the name Falco II but at the time in Italy there were already to much Falco (there was also an Ercolani 376) and the new fighter became Ariete (again a Zodiac sign, even if literally it means ram), but also Ariete was already booked for the RE 2002 fighter-bomber. Then the two projects became Ariete I and II even if it seems to me that the '2001 was usually called the Falco II.
Back to Sagittario, the name was selected again by Eng. Sergio Stefanutti for the later Sagittario and Sagittario II.
By the way the use of Zodiacal names was formally requested by Regia Aeronautica.
Nico
 

blackkite

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Hi Ca.365.
http://www.aviarmor.net/aww2/projects/ita/caproni_ca365.htm
Auto translation
"Caproni Ca. 365
Dive Bomber
At the end of the year 1940 Caproni Bergamaschi developed several variants of dauntless dive bombers, which served as the project SA. 331, which has already been adopted. The basic model was evaluated by the specialists of the Regia Aeronautica was extremely high, but for a number of reasons, including purely technical nature, the mass production of SA. 331 was delayed and only started in the year 1943, prior to the conclusion of an armistice with the allies. Through the use of the potential of this project has been developed at least three Dive Bomber modifications: Ca. 360, CA. 365 and Ca. 370.
Draft Ca. 365 was developed in several versions, and the basis for it served as Sa. 360. Under the scheme it was a twin-engine monoplane with a fully vacuumed chassis and dvuhkilevym. Said two variants of the fuselage: the "standard" and "narrow", but in both cases instead of glazing the lower part of the fuselage was completely zasteklen nose. Also anticipated the use of Isotta Fraschini-engines "Zeta" r. c. 42 capacity 1250 HP (performed by x-shaped pattern) with new screws and kapotami. The wing design was modified-vanished typical Sa. 331 and Ca. 360 "inverse Gull".
Despite the planned improvement in flight technical data guide RA rejected this project.
Sources:
CAPRONI BERGAMASCHI CA 360-375
The projection of the dive bomber Caproni Ca. 365
Project tactical-technical data of the dive bomber Caproni Ca. 365:
Length-?
Wingspan-?
Wing area-?
Empty weight-?
Take-off weight-?
Maximum speed-?
Engine: two Isotta Fraschini-row "Zeta" r. c. 42 capacity 1250 HP
Crew-one person
Armament: two 20 mm cannon in the fuselage (?)
Bomb load bombs weighing up to 1000 kg (?)"

hesham-san's post.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5420.0;attach=174676;image
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5420.msg167619.html#msg167619

Another site
http://italianaircraftwwii.blogspot.jp/2015/03/caproni-bergamaschi-ca-360-375.html

"CA 370
The Ca 370 was a further development of the Ca 331 which also halted at the design stage. Again twenty-four cylinder Zetas were the intended power units. The Ca 370 had an estimated maximum speed of 383 m.p.h.
Ca.375
Ca 370 derivative with 2 x DB605 engines"
 

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blackkite

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Hi SM.93 and SM.86W.
SM.86W had a large nose window for dive bombing. But single seater was fatal for dive bomber.

http://alternathistory.com/pikiruyushchii-bombardirovshchik-siai-marchetti-sm93

http://alternathistory.com/andrea-kurami-i-dzhankarlo-garello-italyanskie-pikirovshchiki-chast-1-o-poyavlenii-i-razvitii-italya
 

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Avimimus

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...and I initially thought the cockpit was excessive!!
 

blackkite

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I made a following table.

Source :
http://alternathistory.com/andrea-kurami-i-dzhankarlo-garello-italyanskie-pikirovshchiki-chast-1-o-poyavlenii-i-razvitii-italya
 

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blackkite

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Twin boom Ca.355 and Ca.360.
Ca.360 detail.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17595.0;attach=515912;image
 

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blackkite

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Ca.365 is a dive bomber,too.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17595.0;attach=559982;image

http://italianaircraftwwii.blogspot.jp/2015/02/caproni-bergamaschi-ca-360-375.html

http://www.aviarmor.net/aww2/projects/ita/caproni_ca365.htm
Auto translation
"Caproni Ca. 365
Dive Bomber
At the end of the year 1940 Caproni Bergamaschi developed several variants of dauntless dive bombers, which served as the project SA. 331, which has already been adopted. The basic model was evaluated by the specialists of the Regia Aeronautica was extremely high, but for a number of reasons, including purely technical nature, the mass production of SA. 331 was delayed and only started in the year 1943, prior to the conclusion of an armistice with the allies. Through the use of the potential of this project has been developed at least three Dive Bomber modifications: Ca. 360, CA. 365 and Ca. 370.
Draft Ca. 365 was developed in several versions, and the basis for it served as Sa. 360. Under the scheme it was a twin-engine monoplane with a fully vacuumed chassis and dvuhkilevym. Said two variants of the fuselage: the "standard" and "narrow", but in both cases instead of glazing the lower part of the fuselage was completely zasteklen nose. Also anticipated the use of Isotta Fraschini-engines "Zeta" r. c. 42 capacity 1250 HP (performed by x-shaped pattern) with new screws and kapotami. The wing design was modified-vanished typical Sa. 331 and Ca. 360 "inverse Gull".
Despite the planned improvement in flight technical data guide RA rejected this project."
 

blackkite

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Hi!
Dive bomber prototype Ba.88m. Can you see air brake?

http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/bredaba88alidit.html
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Savoia Marchetti SM.93.
"The Italian Air Force developed a dive bomber in the mid-1930s, but the SM85 completed as a result was a failure, so the Ju87 procured from Germany were deployed.
 Then, in 1942, the domestic dive bomber was developed again, and the Air Force also allowed the use of the high-performance DB605 among the engines available at that time, and gave instructions for development a high-speed single-engine aircraft to Savoia Marchetti.
The Savoia Marchetti designed a low-wing aircraft with retractable undercarriage applying all-wood structure, and the main feature of this aircraft was that the pilot boarded in the front of the slender double-seat cockpit, lying down. The layout was such that the posture that can withstand the large G (gravitational acceleration) caused by the pull up after dive was in a lying state, but the rear gunner had a normal seat arrangement. The armament could carry a 820 kg bomb below the fuselage, but it could also carry a torpedo instead of the bomb. It was also equipped with a 20mm motor cannon and a 12.7mm machine gun.
After Italy surrendered in 1943, the German army continued to produce this aircraft, and the prototype aircraft made its first flight at the end of March 1944 (or end of January). The aircraft had an all-wood structure and had more armament than necessary, resulting in an increase in weight. However, this aircraft showed high performance thanks to its excellent engine, and set a phenomenal record of 900 km/h during dive. However, the pilot's seat in the prone position proved to be effective during dive, but the pilot felt distressed under normal cruising conditions. In addition, this aircraft was not mass-produced because the cruising speed when the bomb loaded was the average of bombers at that time. (There is also a opinion that the German army issued a mass production order for this plane, but the war ended without completion)."

Engine: Daimler Benz DB605 RC. 58, Wingspan: m 13,90, Lenght: m 10,93, Height: m 3,80, Wing area: mq 31,10
Loaded Weight: 5500 kg, Empty Weight: 3560 kg, Max Speed: 542 kmh @ 7000 m, Stall Speed: 122 kmh
Climb: 5'40" to 4000m, Service Ceiling: 8200m, Range: 1650km, Take off lenght: 300m, Landing lenght: 320m
Armament: 2x12.7 breda safat machineguns, 1x20mm mg151, 1x12.7 breda safat in the rear cockpit
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/367230-savoia-marchetti-sm93/
http://military.sakura.ne.jp/world/w_sm93.htm
 

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