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Italian contenders to the NMBR-1 contest

Skybolt

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Other than G-91, the predestined Italian contender....
They were at least three, one was actually built in prototype form (not the version intended to be tendered, although). They were:
Aerfer Ambrosini S. (Stefanutti) Sagittario 2
Aermacchi MB.324
SIAI Marchetti SM.133

Let's start from the Sagittario. There were different version projected for the CAS role (then it was described as "caccia -assalto"). The one tendered is illustrated here. Relevant data:

Length 9.50 m; span: 7,50 m, plus two plastic extension (1.05 m each) for use during the take-off, then jettisoned and re-used; max TO weight 4655 KG; armament to Hispano-Suiza 30/70 guns, two 225 KG bombs, or two 325 KG napalm tanks, 12 76 mm rockets. TO distance with two bombs 450 m. Low pressure tyres for use from unprepared surfaces. Engine: Derwent 9 derivative version with smaller dia and 2270 KG of thrust, engine was installed with a 2 degrees inclination to provide additional lift. Speed: clean 1.1 Mach in a dive. Project was judged "too late" after suffering strange "incidents", probably due to sabotage, notably one on July 7th 1957, when during a public display while touching down the plane suffered contemporary malfunctions to the flaps, the brakes and the braking parachute....
 

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Skybolt

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Another woul-be contender to the NMBR-1 contest was the MB-324. Actually it started as an interceptor (config seen here) with two engines (Vipers?) and four guns. There was a two-place single-engine version for training (already posted in another topic). The interceptor wing was rather large and probabl could have been converted to the CAS role. Ing. Bazzocchi decided not to tender his project (so the official story goes) because he thought he had no chance... Probably someone counselled him to do so to not disturb FIAT. Ing. Stefanutti ignored the counseling and they had to resort to more "robust" manners...
 

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Sentinel Chicken

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The MB.324 looks a lot like the Sud-Est SE 5000 Baroudeur. Did that Italian design also dispense with the conventional landing gear?
 

Skybolt

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No, it was a conventional three wheels configuration.
 

Maveric

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Hi Skybolt,

you forget the SIAI Marchetti S.M.133?


Maveric
 

Skybolt

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No, Mav, I'm waiting for something never seen before... ;) Just a few days... 8)
 

Petrus

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Recently I've found a few of the MB-324 pictures elsewhere on the Internet. Apparently there were three variants of the project: (i) two-engined single-seat interceptor; (ii) single-engine two seater (maybe a trainer, a competitor to the Fiat G.80, but looking at its seating arrangement I think that it could have been an all-weather fighter rather than a trainer, for the rear seat is lower than the front one); (iii) a proposal for the NMBR-1 (if so, it must have had one engine, namely the Orpheus).

Below you'll find the pictures attached.

Any further info (regarding other specifications) would be appreciated.

Piotr
 

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zeroc

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One of the versions...
 

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Nico

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Yes, indeed.
It's the only image I know, probably depicting a desk model of the SM.133.
Nico
 

archipeppe

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Nico said:
Yes, indeed.
It's the only image I know, probably depicting a desk model of the SM.133.
Nico


I saw such image long ago inside an old "Aerospazio Mese" number with an article (yours if I remember correctly) about Italian fighter proposal of 50's. Did any other image or drawing about it??
Too bad I also dreamed to realize a good 3 views of the SM-133.
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Nico,


and for my dear Archipeppa,I will search about 3-view for it.
 

hesham

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Hi,


the Aermacchi MB.327 was a further development of MB.324 fighter,intended also
for NATO requirement.


Sorry for bad quality.


http://forum.worldofwarplanes.com/index.php?/topic/2539-aermacchi-mb324/
 

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Silencer1

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Slightly bigger image of S.M.133

Source: http://www.ilovesestocalende.it/notizie/100-anni-di-siai/lepilogo/#more-16156

Few other SIAI-Marchetti of the final period have been mentioned, without pictures yet.
 

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blackkite

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Hi!

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIAI-Marchetti_SM-133
Auto translation
"SIAI-Marchetti SM-133 or SM-133 there has been an innovative project of aircraft with hunt an Italian of the beginning of the fifties, planned by the engineer Alexander Marchetti.
History of the project
In the immediate postwar period the Italy tried to start developing new military aircraft able to rebuild the air strength of the country.
The engineer Alexander Marchetti planned an innovative aircraft with hunt intercettore entirely metal; this project, in spite of the innovatività, was left in favour of the most agreed North American F-86 first United States Sabra "given" and then built on licence at the Fiat. In fact, the Italian Military Aeronautics (LOVE) received beforehand 179 Canadair Sabre MK 4 (F-86E) given RAF and then 93 F-86K produced by the Fiat, all acquired between 1955 and 1963, second as established by the postwar agreements.
In the facts, this has precluded to our industry the possibility of implementare an autonomous research and development of that American.
This aircraft, together with the coeval one SM.10X,would have been the first construction aircraft entirely metal of the SIAI-Marchetti.
Technique
Him Next M.133 was originally hunt intercettore of little dimensions provided with fins canard and from wing to delta (type tailless, or "without tail") and type trolley previous tricycle. The aircraft entirely metal was pushed by two motors Armstrong Siddeley Viper ASV-5, able to 1,1 kN (Mk.22) of push.
The motors, this they mounted the join of the tail, while the reservoir of the fuel was going in the previous part of the aircraft, probably to better balance the masses. The hunt intercettore would have had, thanks to the motors and the particular wing outline, an elevated speed of slope and of cruise, speed respected in 1 100 kmh s.l.m.
Type hunts intercettore
Builder Italy Savoy-Marchetti
Principal user Italy
Propulsion
Motor 2 Armstrong Siddeley Viper ASV-5
1,1 it push kN (Mk.22)
Performances
Speed maximum 1 100 kmh to S.l.m.
Signs the data relative to the performances are theoretical
the data are extracted: SIAI Marchetti S.M.133 - Italian aircraft - World of Warplanes North American official forum voices of present military aircraft on Wikipedia"

S.M.10X
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,639.msg4830.html#msg4830

S.M.133 looks like Henschel Hs P.75. ;D
 

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hesham

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My dear Blackkite,

I said before the SM.10X was in fact called SM.108,and here is the reason;

it was SM.108,but they used the prefix X instead off (8) to commemorate of
Savoia-Marchetti S-55X,Atlantic cruise aircraft

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,639.msg132939.html#msg132939
 

blackkite

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Thanks a lot my great hasham-san. :D
Any way we need SM.133 three side view drawing. ;)
 

Silencer1

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Hello blackkite!


Thanks for improving the thread with translation.
Could you be so kind to adjust slightly Google translation?

Perhaps it would be more correct change in the initial text:
Italian Military Aeronautics (LOVE) ----> Aeronautica Militare Italiana (AMI)
hunt intercettore ----> interceptor
Savoy-Marchetti ----> Savoia-Marchetti

Thanks in advance!
 

blackkite

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Thank you very much. Please correct my post anytime you like. My knowledge for Italian aircraft is very poor.
It's most important for information to be correct.

It's also as important as possible also to collect all information.
That's the way where we reach to the truth.
Anyway we have no choice but to advance towards the front using all means. Let's go!!
 

Jemiba

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Just an attempt, due to the single photo of the model, limited to, let's say source grade 1.5 ....
Some points, that could be subject for a debate:
- The wing is set low and seems to have a fillet, that extends to the front, maybe forming a kind of strake ?
- Due to the sleek nose, which probably would have been occupied by at least a small ranging radar, the nose wheel
would retract to the rear
- Those wing tip pods would have housed electronics (then the theory about the radar in the nose may be wrong),
or weapons, perhaps like unguided rockets ?
- The longitudinal position of the main gear is determined by the CG, that probably would have been quite far aft,
due to the engines at the extreme tail. The lateral position should be determined by the quite thin wing, maybe too thin
to house the main wheels, which would retract then into the center fuselage.
- The biggest question to me is the size of that aircraft. Assuming that the nacelles wouldn't have been much bigger in
diameter, than needed by the engines, the overall length would have been just around 8 meters (?), smaller than
the Folland Gnat. Perhaps this model shows a kind of demonstrator and not the service aircraft ?
 

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archipeppe

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My dear Jemiba,

you drawing is really cool.
At least I see (even if deductive) 3 views of the SM-133.

Regarding the overall dimensions I have a feeling same as your.
Indeed, if this could help, the canopy seems to be the same used by AERFER/Ambrosini Ariete.
 

blackkite

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Hi!
You forget to add fillet which seems to end at the wing leading edge?
 

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Jemiba

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archipeppe said:
... the canopy seems to be the same used by AERFER/Ambrosini Ariete.
Not really the same, I think, as the Aerfer had a one-piece canopy, with the windshield with its
frame set directly into it, whereas the canopy of the SM.133 is shown with separate forward part.
But using the Aerfer cockpit as comparison, we get a similar length.

blackkite said:
Hi!
You forget to add fillet which seems to end at the wing leading edge?

Nope, have highlighted it in this cut-out. To my opinion, the part in front of the leading edge wouldn't be
visible in the top view, because of the curving in of the lower part of the fuselage. Sorry, didn't made a
drawing of the underside, where it would be clearly recognisable.

For those, who are interested in working on this design by themselves, I've attached the svg-file, which
can be used in inkscape, or another vector graphics software. Just replace the suffix "txt" with "svg"
(svg-files cannot be uploaded here)
 

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blackkite

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I imagine that side fillet cut at wing leading edge is area rule application.
Engine position is good.

SIAI-Marchetti_SM-133
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIAI-Marchetti_SM-133
"After the war the Italy tried to start developing new military aircraft able to reconstruct the country's air force.
The engineer Alessandro Marchetti designed an innovative all-metal fighter aircraft; This project, despite the innovativeness, was abandoned in favor of more conventional North American F-86 Sabre before us "won" and later built under licence by Fiat. In fact, the Italian Air Force (AMI) received 179 first Canadair Sabre MK 4 (F-86E) transferred from the RAF and then 93 F-86 k produced by Fiat, all acquired between 1955 and 1963, as war agreements.In fact, this has precluded our industry the opportunity to implement an autonomous research and development from the United States"
"THE S. M. 133 was an original small interceptor aircraft with canards and delta wing (tailless type, or "without tail") and tricycle type undercarriage. The all-metal aircraft was powered by two Armstrong Siddeley Viper engine ASV-5, capable of 1.1 kN (Mk 22).
The engines were mounted at the base of the tail, while the fuel tank was in the front of the aircraft, probably to better balance the masses. The fighter would have had, thanks to search engines and to particular Airfoil, a high rate of climb and cruise speeds estimated at 1 100 km/h above sea level."

https://elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com/2014/11/13/siai-marchetti-s-m-133-thunderbirds-are-not-go/
"The uttely magnificent SIAI Marchetti’s lightweight fighter proposal of the fifties. This a canard equiped delta winged wonder powered by a pair of British Armstrong Siddeley Viper ASV.5’s jet engines placed in elegant “semi-pods” at the back end. Not sluggish, the S.M.133’s expected max speed should have been 680 mph. Sadly wishful thinking… the Aeronautica Militare Italiane (AMI) was not convinced; there were cheaper alternatives."
 

archipeppe

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I still wondering what the hell are those pods at wingtips.

Did the SM-133 had a single trace landing gear?
In such case the wingtips would make sense to carry small gears (as the Mya-4 Bison).
 

Petrus

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archipeppe said:
I still wondering what the hell are those pods at wingtips.

Did the SM-133 had a single trace landing gear?
In such case the wingtips would make sense to carry small gears (as the Mya-4 Bison).

In the photo/painting of a mock-up you may see a nose wheel and shadows of the fuselage and wings below the aircraft. There is no outrigger under the wingtips. My feeling is the pods are rocket launchers.

Piotr
 

blackkite

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Detailed information on this airplane and a correct drawing should be left in Italian Air Force. ;)
 

hesham

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Hi,

the SM.133 looks like SAAB-220.
 

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lucamax

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Dear friends,
Here I post the 3-view and a model of the MB.324, designed by Bazzocchi.
Source: Gente dell'Aria, Vol. 3, Giorgio Evangelisti, Olimpia Editore.
Best regards.
--
Luca
 

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hesham

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From Cielo 1953 11,

the MB.324.
 

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hesham

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From Ali Nuove 5/1953,

the Macchi MB.324.
 

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Petrus

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As for the MB-324, does anybody here have any information on its dimensions?
Any input would be appreciated.
Piotr
 
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hesham

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From Aviation magazine 1954,

a good view to a Model for Macchi MB.324.
 

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