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Horten Ho 229 Documentary - "Hitler's Stealth Fighter"

Stuka

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National Geographic is filming a documentary about the Horten brothers. Air date not yet released.

http://www.ipf.ca/IPF/releases/CAF-April-2008.pdf
Hitler’s Stealth Bomber (Myth Merchant Films, Calgary) It’s widely acknowledged that Germany won the
‘aviation technology’ battle in WW2, but could the German “bat-winged” stealth aircraft have eluded Allied
radar and changed the course of the war? Now, more than sixty years after the Horten flying wings first took
to the air, these revolutionary aircraft will be put to the test. Using the surviving HO 229 confiscated by the
Allies and stored by the Smithsonian Institute, the team will recreate both the fighter jet and the massive HO
18 bomber. (Broadcaster: History Canada, National Geographic US)

http://ho229-cockpit.blogspot.com/




http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269020&page=3
I recently finished work on a Ho 229 in 1/8 scale, this design is kitted. While working on the Ho 229, I was approached by a filmmaker working on a documentary on the Ho 229 for National Geographic. He wants to include some time on the Ho 18, including a dramatization of the meeting between the Horten brothers and Goering where they pitched the Ho 18 to him. He wants a model of the Ho 18 to use as a prop for that scene, and he's asked me to build it. I'm already doing finish work on a static Ho 229 also for use as a prop for the film.

Arthur Bentley has been commissioned to do a new set of drawings of the Ho XVIII based on all available original info (sketchy) and a little bit of projection.

I'm having crazy thoughts about building a flying version, someone please stop me :)

Gary

http://www.wingsontheweb.com
gary.hethcoat@gmail.com
 

Jemiba

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"It’s widely acknowledged that Germany won the ‘aviation technology’ battle in WW2"

If that's the motto of the whole film, I rather believe in Father Christmas,
ho, ho, ho ! ;)

But I know, it will be a bestseller and there will be many fans, who can't
wait to buy it on DVD, as another evidence for this statement .... ;D
 

Stuka

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Air date second or third quarter 2009.

http://www.is.northropgrumman.com/media/integrator_assets/Integrator_2008/I_Dec15.pdf

More than a dozen employees showed up at El Segundo’s
Radar Cross Section model shop on a recent Saturday
morning to volunteer their services in the construction of
a full-scale wooden model of a 64-year-old German flying
wing.
Northrop Grumman is participating in a TV documentary
for the National Geographic Channel that will feature the
sector’s expertise in stealth technology and rapid proto-
typing. Northrop Grumman’s role is to build a 55-foot-
wingspan model of the Horten 229 fighter and measure its
radar signature.
The Ho 229, which resembled some of Jack Northrop’s
flying wings, was designed in the early 1940s by the
Horten brothers, two German aviation enthusiasts whose
ideas caught the attention of Germany’s Third Reich.
However, for a variety of reasons the Ho 229 was never
produced.
Had Germany been able to field this jet-powered fly-
ing wing before the end of World War II, how would it
have performed against Allied aircraft? Did the Germans
incorporate rudimentary low-observable elements into the
Ho 229? Could it have eluded British radar long enough
to make Germany’s London bombing campaign succeed?
These are some of the tantalizing questions the documen-
tary will try to answer.
However, the real stars of this show will be the people of
Northrop Grumman. Most of the time, details of their work
are closely held inside the company, but this is an oppor-
tunity to show the world how Northrop Grumman people
excel at what they do.
The employees who volunteered
at the model shop were put to
work measuring and marking lines on the
model that indicate flight-control surfaces
and the leading edge. Their efforts saved
hours of extra work by the regular
members of the RCS model shop
team.
The documentary is
expected to air in the
second or third
quarter of
2009.
Jim Hart

 
T

thehortenlead

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Hello all,
Im new to this site. My name is Tim. I have been very busy building a full scale Horten as lead on the Project. It is a RCS Model as well as a Display model. Simply beautiful, and the best project I have worked on since I started doing this 28 years ago. The Documentary will be out sometime this fall on National Geographic channel. The story will be about the build, the test, the test results and recreated scenes of ww2. I cant wait !
If anyone has any interest I would be honered to answer questions... Have a blessed day!

Tim

ps photos will follow soon....
 

Orionblamblam

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This one?
img.php


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0/highlight,229.html
 
T

thehortenlead

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Gary,

Cool to see that you put your cockpit out there. The model test was simply outstanding ! Im ready for the last filming site.... Maybe see you there. Im glad to see all the interest in my model. Hee Hee......

Tim FYI "thehortenlead"
 
A

avatar

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jemiba,


The germans may have indeed been ahead in certain design areas . but they were behind in certain areas of manufacturing technology. Plus they had resource constraints , which is why they could not scale up their wunderbar weapon production.


As we all know wars are not won by exotic designs that can be deployed only in a piecemeal fashion. simpler proven weapons deployed in large numbers ( make that very large) rather than complex untested designs win wars.


So Nazi Germany took the science forward , whereas the allies happily built up the numbers and also focused heavily on electronics which has a smaller deployment cycle even if exotic for the time. net result the allies won the war only to get hold of the various breakthroughs painstakingly made by Germany during the second war with the R&D investment already having been sunk. to cap it all they got a lot of the brains behind these projects too .


The allies could have developed the technologies that the Nazis deployed, however they chose to do so later than the nazis did . Instead they focused their resources on winning the war with what was immediately doable.



Today's America runs the risk of doing a WW2 Germany on itself.
 

Stuka

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A little about the Hortens and RCS from "Horten Ho 229: Spirit of Thuringia"

In the late 1970s and early 1980s, information began to appear in the mass-media regarding the development in the United States of technologies for a 'low observable' combat aircraft, better known as 'Stealth' technology. Research was being conducted to find materials and configurations with which to reduce the radar and infra-red visibility of the aircraft. The flying wing layout was found to have the smallest possible vertical plane areas and hence the least radar-reflecting surface, while its simple shape precluded the deflection of the incoming electromagnetic waves in the direction of the signal source, i.e. the searching radar.
Originating from this research the 'Stealth' warplanes such as the Northrop B-2A and the projected McDonnell Douglas A-12 appeared to have design features strikingly reminiscent of the Horten 229. No wonder that the astounding idea of 'Nazi Stealth' arose and became almost universally accepted by the media. Could it be true that the technology which we consider to be one of the latest developments in aerial warfare has, in fact, its roots in the Third Reich? Let us look again at the time of the H IX inception.
Evidently the problem of avoiding radar detection came into being the moment the first operational radar was fielded. Already during the Battle of Britain radar had greatly enhanced the effectiveness of the British air defence. As early as April 1942 the RLM's Director of Air Armament, Erhard Milch, offered a prize for finding a way of deceiving enemy radar. While airborne electronic warfare was in the event pioneered by the British 'Window' passive jamming, it was the German Navy which introduced the means of permanent radar-protection of moving vehicles. By 1944 the Kriegsmarine had developed and tested radar-absorbing materials which were applied to the parts of submarines exposed above the water in order to prevent their detection by ASV radar, which was a naval version of the H2S airborne radar. The simplest material was a carbon-impregnated rubber coating, named 'Schornsteinfeger' ('chimney sweeper'), an allusion to the substance used.
Although the Ho 229 has been immediately identified as "stealthy" due to the characteristics of its overall configuration, neither of the Horten brothers ever claimed their aircraft had been designed with consideration to the way it deflects radar waves. In fact, the unique shape of the Ho 229 has evolved from the ten-year long aerodynamic research by the Hortens. What Reimar did claim as far back as 1950, was that the wooden construction of the Ho 229 would reflect very little of the incoming electromagnetic waves, thus making the aircraft "...barely visible on the radar."
Here it should be noted that despite a widespread belief, the wooden construction of an aircraft does not necessarily reduce its radar visibility. Known is the fact that the all-wooden de Havilland Mosquito was in no way 'invisible.' It is true that wood is a predominantly radio-transparent material, reflecting and dissipating only a small fraction of radiation. But, with the skin transparent to the radar rays, the inner structures such as the engines or the tubular frame of the Ho 229 would reflect the incoming radiation none the less.
It appears that the radar-absorbing properties of carbon had not been known to Reimar before the late 1970s, when materials working on similar principles were created in the USA. Perhaps this new information led Reimar to assert his "visionary" manner that the charcoal present inside the Formholz skin of the Ho 229 "...would diffuse radar beams, and make the aircraft 'invisible' to radar." Although the charcoal, being a form of carbon, could in fact dissipate electromagnetic emissions in a limited range of wavelengths, this substance had actually been utilised as a porous filler to lighten the composite formed parts. Another variation of the carbon theme by Reimar dealt with a mix of coal dust and glue that "...camouflaged 90% of the radar cross-section of the Ho 229" and had to be applied also to the H XVIII.
While no wartime document is known to confirm any 'stealth' activities within the Luftwaffe, the Horten 229 can in any event be considered a precursor to the latest flying wing, the blended-wing-body and related devlopments, both military and civil - stealth or not. Thus seventy years on, the Hortens' vision is still at the forefront aeronautical progress.
 
T

thehortenlead

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Latest news,
The recreated Seens came out so well. Mike Jorgenson is a master Director. This film will be speculator. I have been involved since the beginning and wish I could share the details with all but you will all have to wait. My lips are still sealed.....

TK
 

red admiral

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If anyone is interested I have a report (or may just be a summary) from 1942 regarding British experiments to reduce radar returns. Its deals mainly with the theory but gives possible applications. I seem to remember that part of it says that the method would only work against the more directional centimetric radars and would provide little benefit against decimetric and metric radars.
 

Orionblamblam

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Some interesting comments from rec.aviation.military by someoen who works at SDAM (where the mockup went after testing):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.military/browse_thread/thread/4bb88325b530a98d?hl=en#

I think the show
was patently ludicrous for more reasons than I care to type. But,
lets cover the first thirty seconds of the show, shall we?

First scene - American troops rumble through a forest toward the
mystical Stealth monster's lair. FACT: the aircraft was found at the
Gotha Waffenfabrik, a large industrial complex.

The American troops find a BARN in the middle of the woods - FACT:
the incomplete Ho 229 V-3 was found in a hangar.

As the doors open, the surprised American troops discover the
completed aircraft. FACT: it was only the center section, not
complete as shown in the TV show. The wings at the Smithsonian right
now, displayed with the center section, has not even been proven to
FIT the center section - and were found many miles away at a different
facility. Folks at the NASM decided instead of trying to fit the
three pieces together, they'd build a box for the wings and display
them alongside the center section. If they fit, they'd have
reassembled them prior to displaying the aircraft. That's what they
do, if they have all the right parts. That is what they are going to
ultimately do with their 219, and what they do with everything else
they have. The Horten is an anomaly, due to its questionable
connection to the wings.

Guys, these three errors occurred within -thirty seconds- of the start
of the show. From there, the accuracy of the show went down
markedly. That you were fooled is not surprising, as the producers
went out of their way to mislead the audience into thinking the Nazis
were actively and purposefully building a "Stealth fighter" in 1944.

Other canards: A 1v1 between the test aircraft and an Me 262, which
it supposedly won handlily? IT IS TO LAUGH. Quick question, did the
US (or anyone else) ever have a radical and unproven prototype
aircraft that was flown successfully once, and on its second flight it
was sent up to spar with an operational jet fighter? If you know of
any, please include a cite. What we KNOW from the historical record
and original source documents is that the second prototype crashed and
killed the pilot on it's second flight due to controllability issues.
Sure you want to dogfight in it before you even know how to fly it?
The show's producers made this ridiculous claim without a single sheet
of German wartime paper to back it up. No pilots named OF COURSE; no
logbook entries or other shred of proof. On the interwebs, we respond
to things like this with "Cool story, bro!"

Another one that made me want to spit was the complete fabrication
that Goering had _any_ input in its design. Other than his edict that
all new designs had to be capable of 3x1000, he played no role of any
kind. Yet, the show has him pacing his office, apparently deep in
contemplation on how to get the plywood and soft metal 540 mph
aircraft into production as the show weaves him into their inflated
BS. I kept waiting for the 'proof' that the Horten led to crop
circles and cow mutilations.

One of many things that I questioned was the repeated use of the radar-reflective paint. Much was made of the fact that it was silver-based, provided the same conductivity as metal structures... and cost $2500/gallon. Wouldn't aluminum foil have been cheaper?
 

shockonlip

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OK, thanks for the info.

I still intend to watch.

OK - so the historical setting is suspect, BUT!
IF they had constructed such a thing - be it by accident or not -
what was its performance in the stealth arena. That is what I want
to know. That is still useful. This is where ideas, taken a little farther,
become very different things. I am interested in such modes of thought.

And I'm sure it will be fun to watch at least.

This thread is entitled "upcoming Horten Brothers Documentary" but I see
no info on when the program is scheduled. Evidently it already has aired
at least once, and nobody sounded the alarm.

Next shot is Sunday July 5 at 11am (I'd check my time zone and local listing) - ie: THIS WEEKEND !!
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/hitler-s-stealth-fighter-3942/Overview

Over !
 

Orionblamblam

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shockonlip said:
IF they had constructed such a thing - be it by accident or not -
what was its performance in the stealth arena. That is what I want
to know. That is still useful.

Hard numbers, sadly, were not given. The closest they came was to say that the detection range of the Ho 229 was "20% less" than the detection range of other contemproary aircraft... which aircraft (He 111's? Me 109s? M2 262s? Do 217s? He 177s? Mitsubishi Zeros? P-51s? B-24s?) they did not say.


And I'm sure it will be fun to watch at least.

Actually, I found it to be a little... dull. Mostly it's guys in the Northrop model shop building a plywood mockup.

This thread is entitled "upcoming Horten Brothers Documentary" but I see
no info on when the program is scheduled.

Last Sunday.
 

Stuka

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Some interesting comments from rec.aviation.military by someoen who works at SDAM (where the mockup went after testing):

The wings at the Smithsonian right
now, displayed with the center section, has not even been proven to
FIT the center section - and were found many miles away at a different
facility. Folks at the NASM decided instead of trying to fit the
three pieces together, they'd build a box for the wings and display
them alongside the center section. If they fit, they'd have
reassembled them prior to displaying the aircraft.

Maybe someone should send him this photo.

What we KNOW from the historical record
and original source documents is that the second prototype crashed and
killed the pilot on it's second flight due to controllability issues.

The crash was the result of controllability issues encountered during an engine failure. The pilot was able to trim the airplane with one engine out. During the landing approach, the pilot ran out of yaw authority and crashed short of the runway.

Much was made of the fact that it was silver-based, provided the same conductivity as metal structures... and cost $2500/gallon.
I didn't get to see the show yet but I doubt they actually used stuff that costs that much unless they had some sitting on the shelf about to go bad. The stuff usually used on pole models, at least in my experience, is considerably cheaper.

Wouldn't aluminum foil have been cheaper?
It would be cheaper but a lot bumpier... I think I saw some aluminum foil behind the fake compressor blades.
 

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THX_1138

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Just found this. Very Interesting indeed how close they really where:

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/jun/30/slide-show-1-hitler-stealth-fighter-reincarnated.htm

Hitler's secret fighter revealed!

Top stealth-plane experts have re-created a radical Nazi aircraft, a retro-futuristic fighter, which was made during World War II, under the orders of German dictator Adolf Hitler.

According to a report in National Geographic News, to replicate the Ho 2-29, a team from the Northrop Grumman defence-contracting corporation used original Nazi blueprints of Hitler's stealth fighter and the only surviving Ho 2-29, which has been stored in a US government facility for more than 50 years.

The engineers' goal was to determine whether the so-called stealth fighter was truly radar resistant.

In the process, they have uncovered new clues to just how close Nazi engineers were to unleashing a jet that some say could have changed the course of the war.

The all-wing Ho 2-29 looks more like today's US B-2 bomber than like any other World War II aircraft.

--
Would have posted the images but cant seem to from my Mac in either Safari 4 or Firefox 3.5
--
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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No posting of images until you've made 5 posts. Those are unfortunately the rules now to stop spammers and hackers abusing the forum.
 

THX_1138

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Appreciated. Would be good to pop them in though at that bird looks the business ;-) even today!
 

hs1216

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1. Shouldn't this be in the post 1945 part of the forum.
2. Just because it looks cool doesn't make it a great fighter. That's why postwar aircraft generally don't look as cool as the whimsical German paper designs. The flying wing platform has some issues, which make it a poor fighter layout. The HO-229 was a unstable gun platform. Also, the first unarmed prototype had a total of two hours of flight time before it crashed, the Germans were years away from fielding a effective aircraft if they ever could.
The all-wing Ho 2-29 looks more like today's US B-2 bomber than like any other World War II aircraft.

The future Builders of the B-2, Northrop had build a string of flying wing aircraft since the early 1940, and flew a jet wing fighter XP-79 in September of 45, and a bomber XB-35 in June of 46.
 

Meteorit

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Wow, fourth topic on the same subject ::) ::)

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3583.msg59314.html#msg59314
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6035.0.html
 

airman

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http://punto-informatico.it/2660158/PI/News/stealth-hitler.aspx

http://gizmodo.com/5305249/the-hitlers-stealth-planes-that-could-have-dropped-a-nuclear-bomb-in-nyc
 

Jemiba

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Now we can happily wait for the sensational news, that a stealthy Horten aircraft
has evacuated Adolf Hitler in 1945 from Berlin, flown him to the secret fortress in
antarctica, where he's still hibernating and waiting for the signal from the german
stronghold on the moon, that time has come again to conquer the world.
And surely the recent economical crisis was just triggered by his paladins, as a
first step !

Well, I really think, we can do nothing against such stories, there are just too many
people eagerly awaiting them and happily believing ! :mad:

Of course, we, too, could try to make profit from it ! I'll at once start to reconstruct
the Ho.329, a modification of the 229, which was enlarged and stripped from all weapons
to give a longer range for a VIP transport. And as a proof, I certainly will find quite a lot
of UFO sightings and even photos, that will confirm the shape !
Just wait for my documentation ! ;D
 
G

gery

Guest
interresting....but not a news....

Ho 229 is the really first stealth aireplane....with ferrite cover paint.....the Grandfather of B2....40 year berfore...

german very advanced technology....
 
G

gery

Guest
hahahah....jemiba.....You're a great joker.....all germans was not "nazi"....and you can't change the history......i think NASM and NORTHROP
are a serious office....

"inglourious basterds " propaganda film can't change the reality....sorry for you

soon

gery

Ps : Radar test was made on area 51 "totem"....in the same place like "have blue"
 
G

gery

Guest
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/hitler-s-stealth-fighter-3942/Overview55#tab-Overview
 

Michel Van

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gery said:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/hitler-s-stealth-fighter-3942/Overview55#tab-Overview

i look it and i find it very
index.php


if they build a Aircraft that's look like a B-2 bomber
don't mean its a stealth aircraft for ze Führer...

the only thing good in this NG nonsens, is that Northrop build replica of Ho 229
the orginal is in very very bad shape
 
G

gery

Guest
the best infos on it is the video of the "nat" link.....i think you invert the time....michel ;D ;D ;D
 

Antonio

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http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/hitler-s-stealth-fighter-3942/Overview55#tab-Overview

I've been taking a look there and I found a very poor work. It seems someone found at National Geographic it was a good idea to mix the Horten Brothers work with the Stealth technology to get higher audiences.

In my opinion it has no interest for a serious aerospace enthusiast. I agree with Jemiba about all that stuff on Nazi marvel tech. It seems they invented everything...
 
G

gery

Guest
....NASM and northtrop grumman can't compromise there "image" just for a "fake scoop" wanted by Nat geo....
the "mock up" and work before the model is very long and expensive....it's the crisis or not..???
if an "aerospace enthusiast" is serious, he know that the "stealth technology" is now a "song for children"....
 

Antonio

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NASM and northtrop grumman can't compromise there "image" just for a "fake scoop"

That's true Gery. I think is NG people which has built a poor and speculative product from all that effort. There are continuous examples of popular tech and science products that take serious info as a basis for their products. But the info arriving to the public has been manipulated to better catch audience.
 

Antonio

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No, I think it's not an hoax. I'm not seeing in that sense.
Just a commercial TV product. It's a good show but not a serious but boring academic conference. That's NG target.
In that sense I think is comparable to that BBC shows on prehistoric animals. They pay scientists to research for the most giant predators and then they recostruct it in a TV show adding 2-3 meters more in lenght and to their TV model.

Please excuse me if I can't explain it better.
 
G

gery

Guest
it's ok....
Do you think that "germans project" are interesting for many people "today and around the world"..??
 

Antonio

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Yes Gery,

German Nazi wunderwaffen or giant prehistoric predators are really atractive topics for TV shows or books. In fact I have a lot of info on both topics. But some authors (even those with pretige) fall in the temptation to take think a bit further to get better audience.
 

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sorry to burst you bubble but you need to read a book called "nurflugel" written by Peter F. Selinger and Walter Horten,pages 134 to 149, in it it talks about the fact that V-3 was intact and nearly completed at the Gotha plant on April 14th 1945. and that V-4,5 and 6 were in various stages of completion, and that the Ninth U.S. Armored Division found the HIX V-1 in good condition near Leipzig,
as to how many flights the V-2 did take, per Walter Horten (page 134) he states that Lt. Erwin Ziller made the first flight about December 18th, 1944, but his log book indicates that the first flight occurred on February 2nd, 1945. and that Walter Horten states I am quit sure that first flight of the HIX was also his first in a jet. it appears that the H X V-2 had flown three or four times before tragedy struck on February 18th. the weather was overcast, the ground soft and muddy. The visibility marginal for a test flight, as Lt Ziller took off, retracted the gear and disappeared. we received a report to Oranienburg. due to the low ceiling, a shallow approach to the airport was initiated, Since the hydraulic pump was on the dead engine, gear and flaps were extended by the emergency compressed air system. once down they could not be retracted, to maintain his glide slope Lt Ziller added power to overcome the extra drag, found to his horror that he could no longer maintain directional control: the fully deployed drag rudder unable to overcome the asymmetrically thrust . rather than lose control, he retarded the throttle to land short of the runway. the aircraft touched down in a field, slid into an embankment and flipped over crushing its pilot.

based on this your "assumption" that it had crashed on the 2nd flight is thus incorrect, it was the 3rd or 4th flight based on the book. but i do agree with you that it most likely never did fly against a ME-262, as 2 or 3 flights would not have been enough to gather the data to show the airplanes abilities.

As to has if V-3 ever had the body assembled to the wings. If you go to pages 140 to 141 you would be able to see that Hortens method of construction was to work all 3 sections as a one large assembly during construction, as the skins of the center section on V-2 were not in place till after the wings were installed, (page 141) and we all have seen that the V-3 has its skins installed at NASM. so based on that i beleve that the wings were attached to the body during construction at Gotha.
as to why the airplane was in the 3 peaces, I have not found any thing in writting for this condition but feel that it might have been taken appart for prep for transport to the Oranienburg location for finally assembly and flight testing.

as to its construction. things that needs to be brought out from Hortens book...

1) the wing itself was a wet wing. with no bladders, (page 134) the interior of the wing would be coated with fuel proof glue,

2) the skin was to be 2 sheets of plywood, 1.5 mm thick each with a 12mm layer of sawdust, charcoal and glue mix sandwiched between, the charcoal in this was to diffuse radar beams, and make the aircraft "invisible" on radar,) note: this came from the idea of the periscopes on the U boats that had a charcoal coating on them to make it harder to locate with radar due to no return of the radar, and I think that this might make the Ho-229 the first airplane to be planed to be stealth to radar from its planning) I'm not sure that the TV program ever really tried to test this issue.


as to the role of Goering, well we need to understand that the Hortens were not understood in germany by the RLM, and funds for their projects were not easy to get, the hortens lacked a production facility.

here is a quote from a book "JET PLANES OF THE THIRD REICH" page 209...during November 1941 Galland left the famous fighter wing, JG 26, to take hover from Molders as general of the fighter's.shortly after consolidating his new command Galland asked that the technical officer of JG 26, BLT. Walter Horten, be transferred to his staff. with his elder brother, Reimar, had been working for about ten years on the development of all wing aircraft, building several successful gliders to test his theories. Now, having the opportunity to comverse with some of the Luftwaffe's leading generals an opportunity further helped by the fact that he was married to Udet's secretary) Horten managed to elicit verbal agreement from Goring for him and his brother to set up a special group (sonderkommando 9) at Gothingen to build more advanced all-wing aircraft. of these, the most important was the Ho IX fighter of which two prototypes were to be completed, one as a glider, the other with twin turbojets.
after discovering the existence of the construction group early in 1944, RLM officials ordered all further work to be stopped as they had not been consulted. The Horten brothers immediately sought a further interview with Goring who quickly gave them authorization to continue their work. this showed that Goring and Galland did have a direct involvement with some part of the program. but not at all like the show tried to protray it. (here they goofed badly)

as a side note: if any one looks for information they can find it as not only a Ho 229 but also a Go 229. this is because during the army's investigation of the airplane they assumed that the airplane were a Gotha project due to being on Gotha facilities. I have read the documents of the armys research into how they located the program. (my coppies of the documents I have given to the museum of flight in Seattle if you want to see them)


also in your information you presented you eluded to 2 locations for the airplanes. in the book "JET PLANES OF THE THIRD REICH" on page 209 it states that the airfield at Oranienburg being used for tests as that at Gottingen was too small, that's how the airplanes ended up at 2 locations. also on page 211 it shows that V-1 was all there when the army got there, as to how many airframes were built, there was up to line 7 in production, and that 7 might have been a 2 seater.



Orionblamblam said:
by someoen who
Some interesting comments from rec.aviation.military works at SDAM (where the mockup went after testing):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.military/browse_thread/thread/4bb88325b530a98d?hl=en#

I think the show
was patently ludicrous for more reasons than I care to type. But,
lets cover the first thirty seconds of the show, shall we?

First scene - American troops rumble through a forest toward the
mystical Stealth monster's lair. FACT: the aircraft was found at the
Gotha Waffenfabrik, a large industrial complex.

The American troops find a BARN in the middle of the woods - FACT:
the incomplete Ho 229 V-3 was found in a hangar.

As the doors open, the surprised American troops discover the
completed aircraft. FACT: it was only the center section, not
complete as shown in the TV show. The wings at the Smithsonian right
now, displayed with the center section, has not even been proven to
FIT the center section - and were found many miles away at a different
facility. Folks at the NASM decided instead of trying to fit the
three pieces together, they'd build a box for the wings and display
them alongside the center section. If they fit, they'd have
reassembled them prior to displaying the aircraft. That's what they
do, if they have all the right parts. That is what they are going to
ultimately do with their 219, and what they do with everything else
they have. The Horten is an anomaly, due to its questionable
connection to the wings.

Guys, these three errors occurred within -thirty seconds- of the start
of the show. From there, the accuracy of the show went down
markedly. That you were fooled is not surprising, as the producers
went out of their way to mislead the audience into thinking the Nazis
were actively and purposefully building a "Stealth fighter" in 1944.

Other canards: A 1v1 between the test aircraft and an Me 262, which
it supposedly won handlily? IT IS TO LAUGH. Quick question, did the
US (or anyone else) ever have a radical and unproven prototype
aircraft that was flown successfully once, and on its second flight it
was sent up to spar with an operational jet fighter? If you know of
any, please include a cite. What we KNOW from the historical record
and original source documents is that the second prototype crashed and
killed the pilot on it's second flight due to controllability issues.
Sure you want to dogfight in it before you even know how to fly it?
The show's producers made this ridiculous claim without a single sheet
of German wartime paper to back it up. No pilots named OF COURSE; no
logbook entries or other shred of proof. On the interwebs, we respond
to things like this with "Cool story, bro!"

Another one that made me want to spit was the complete fabrication
that Goering had _any_ input in its design. Other than his edict that
all new designs had to be capable of 3x1000, he played no role of any
kind. Yet, the show has him pacing his office, apparently deep in
contemplation on how to get the plywood and soft metal 540 mph
aircraft into production as the show weaves him into their inflated
BS. I kept waiting for the 'proof' that the Horten led to crop
circles and cow mutilations.

One of many things that I questioned was the repeated use of the radar-reflective paint. Much was made of the fact that it was silver-based, provided the same conductivity as metal structures... and cost $2500/gallon. Wouldn't aluminum foil have been cheaper?
Stuka said:
Some interesting comments from rec.aviation.military by someoen who works at SDAM (where the mockup went after testing):

The wings at the Smithsonian right
now, displayed with the center section, has not even been proven to
FIT the center section - and were found many miles away at a different
facility. Folks at the NASM decided instead of trying to fit the
three pieces together, they'd build a box for the wings and display
them alongside the center section. If they fit, they'd have
reassembled them prior to displaying the aircraft.

Maybe someone should send him this photo.

What we KNOW from the historical record
and original source documents is that the second prototype crashed and
killed the pilot on it's second flight due to controllability issues.

The crash was the result of controllability issues encountered during an engine failure. The pilot was able to trim the airplane with one engine out. During the landing approach, the pilot ran out of yaw authority and crashed short of the runway.

Much was made of the fact that it was silver-based, provided the same conductivity as metal structures... and cost $2500/gallon.
I didn't get to see the show yet but I doubt they actually used stuff that costs that much unless they had some sitting on the shelf about to go bad. The stuff usually used on pole models, at least in my experience, is considerably cheaper.

Wouldn't aluminum foil have been cheaper?
It would be cheaper but a lot bumpier... I think I saw some aluminum foil behind the fake compressor blades.
 

war birds

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Orionblamblam said:
Some interesting comments from rec.aviation.military by someoen who works at SDAM (where the mockup went after testing):

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.military/browse_thread/thread/4bb88325b530a98d?hl=en#

I think the show
was patently ludicrous for more reasons than I care to type. But,
lets cover the first thirty seconds of the show, shall we?

First scene - American troops rumble through a forest toward the
mystical Stealth monster's lair. FACT: the aircraft was found at the
Gotha Waffenfabrik, a large industrial complex.

The American troops find a BARN in the middle of the woods - FACT:
the incomplete Ho 229 V-3 was found in a hangar.

As the doors open, the surprised American troops discover the
completed aircraft. FACT: it was only the center section, not
complete as shown in the TV show. The wings at the Smithsonian right
now, displayed with the center section, has not even been proven to
FIT the center section - and were found many miles away at a different
facility. Folks at the NASM decided instead of trying to fit the
three pieces together, they'd build a box for the wings and display
them alongside the center section. If they fit, they'd have
reassembled them prior to displaying the aircraft. That's what they
do, if they have all the right parts. That is what they are going to
ultimately do with their 219, and what they do with everything else
they have. The Horten is an anomaly, due to its questionable
connection to the wings.

Guys, these three errors occurred within -thirty seconds- of the start
of the show. From there, the accuracy of the show went down
markedly. That you were fooled is not surprising, as the producers
went out of their way to mislead the audience into thinking the Nazis
were actively and purposefully building a "Stealth fighter" in 1944.

Other canards: A 1v1 between the test aircraft and an Me 262, which
it supposedly won handlily? IT IS TO LAUGH. Quick question, did the
US (or anyone else) ever have a radical and unproven prototype
aircraft that was flown successfully once, and on its second flight it
was sent up to spar with an operational jet fighter? If you know of
any, please include a cite. What we KNOW from the historical record
and original source documents is that the second prototype crashed and
killed the pilot on it's second flight due to controllability issues.
Sure you want to dogfight in it before you even know how to fly it?
The show's producers made this ridiculous claim without a single sheet
of German wartime paper to back it up. No pilots named OF COURSE; no
logbook entries or other shred of proof. On the interwebs, we respond
to things like this with "Cool story, bro!"

Another one that made me want to spit was the complete fabrication
that Goering had _any_ input in its design. Other than his edict that
all new designs had to be capable of 3x1000, he played no role of any
kind. Yet, the show has him pacing his office, apparently deep in
contemplation on how to get the plywood and soft metal 540 mph
aircraft into production as the show weaves him into their inflated
BS. I kept waiting for the 'proof' that the Horten led to crop
circles and cow mutilations.

One of many things that I questioned was the repeated use of the radar-reflective paint. Much was made of the fact that it was silver-based, provided the same conductivity as metal structures... and cost $2500/gallon. Wouldn't aluminum foil have been cheaper?
 
G

gery

Guest
ok for nat geo,
But why "northrop grumman" make test in 2009 on Ho 229 with the "nasm" collaboration on Area 51 ???
 

Jemiba

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Antonio has given a good explanation, I think.

The Horten brothers began development of their flying
wings at the beginning of the thirties and they proceeded
with this principle because they had faith in the aerodynamical
avantages. If the Ho 229 had a lower radar signature, that
was an additional, but more or less accidental advantage.

There certainly are other objects for testing, not just stealth,
but windtunnel testing to determine the flying characteristics
of one of those fancy designs. I'm sure, in many cases the result
would be, that it wouldn't have been flyable at all ! But such a
result wouldn't make for an interesting evening in front of your
TV-set. "Hitler's secret aircraft, that would never have left
the ground !" probably is a non-starter ...

What's a combination of sex, drugs and celebrities for the press
with those big letters, that's a "secret german Wunderwaffe" for the
more dubious part of the aviation press.

Changing history ? No, that's really nothing, I've the slightest interest in !
But as I pointed out in several other similar threads, I think, there are others,
who regard such "evidence" as "proof", that in a certain way germany hadn't
lost the war, or or at least wasn't defeated the way it was in reality. I don't
want to blame those, who built this model, they got an order, which was fulfilled,
no more and no less. I not even want to blame National Geographic, they simply
need TV viewers, so they gave them, what they wanted. And, if you look through
catalogues of some publishers, you'll see : They want a lot !
It's a good business and the believers pay a lot of money for "sensational discoveries".
But we should be more careful, especially as fakes and exagerations, or simply bad
research could discredit the great work, that was done by several members of this
forum, like Justo Miranda or Flitzer,too ! Would really be a pity, if one day everybody,
who'sworking in this field is measured with the same yardstick !
 

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