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Hermès Space Shuttle

flateric

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http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/index.htm
 

Michel Van

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that french

and it is ONLY info site about Hermes ;D
to know more you have to ask the Engineers
but they talk also French (most of them)
 

Jemiba

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"Too bad it's in some weird moon-man language...."

With the help of babelfish or the Google translator, we should be
able even to understand a little green marsian ....
And if not, it will at least give funny results ! ;D
 

blackstar

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There's a good one-page schematic showing about 12-14 different configurations for the spaceplane. The design was always changing. After Challenger, they added a crew escape system, which wiped out the payload capability.
 

blackstar

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Here it is.
 

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blackstar

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Here's another one.
 

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blackstar

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Some more.
 

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blackstar

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These are all from a very nice early 1990s brochure. They are much higher quality than these scans imply because I was not going to mess around with the scanner settings. Unfortunately, there is a really nice four-page foldout section with a cutaway of the entire vehicle. That would require careful scanning and restitching.
 

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Orionblamblam

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blackstar said:
That would require careful scanning and restitching.

Please see attached my "resume." If you could scan & email (preferably at 300 dpi with minimal jpeg compression), I can stitch 'em together right quick.
 

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Triton

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It's a real shame that this project was cancelled. Seems like such a waste to spend all that money developing Ariane 5 and making it man rated. Looks like the a new launch pad is being built to operate the Russian-built Soyuz-ST from the Kourou Spaceport in French Guiana. If the shuttle is going to be retired next year, I wonder if ESA will be using the Soyuz-ST for manned flights?
 

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flateric

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The *best* Hermes site ever http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/index.htm
 

Orionblamblam

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flateric said:
The *best* Hermes site ever http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/index.htm

From that site:


From the background, it looks like the Russians were putting on one of their traditional Paris air show displays of using jet aircraft for tunneling operations.
 

flateric

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Kvochur's MiG-29 crash? Dunno...
 

Michel Van

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That's was the Kvochur's MiG-29 crash
or better say a live action presentation, how good Soviet ejection seats works ::)

back To Hermes
it was not bad concept....back in 1977
so Wat wend wrong ?

first CNES got the Shuttle Virus in beginn 1980s
1984 Hermes became defacto French version of Shuttle
with cargobay and Robot arm
a crew of 4-6 plus a 4500kg payload in its cargo bay

then 1986 happend Challenger and CNES had put rescue systems in Hermes
Hermes became heavy and expensively
the next 4 years Hermes configuration change constantly
1987 Hermes became official a ESA Program

around 1990 the Hermes look more like advance version of X-20X
but with crew of 3 and a payload under 3000kg.
1991, 13 years past after beginn of Hermes program came the downfall

Germany need money for the Reunification and had no Interest to pay more on Hermes
the new French president Jacques Chirac had also to make financial savings.

The November 1991 ESA meeting in Munich, Germany,
Germans, French and Italian had dispute on Hermes Program
it estimated cost were around $13 billion (Hermes and Ariane 5 development)
Hermes became Hermes X-2000 unmanned technology demonstration,
maybe as a joint European-Russian program.

then at The November 1992 meeting in Granada, Spain, finally kill the Hermes Program
after 15 years and spent of $6,5 billion on Ariane 5 and Hermes ($2 Bilion)

Legacy Ariane 5
The original Ariane 5 had to be a common Core Booster
were Ariane 4 as backbone with Booster and diverent Lox/Lh2 upperstages

but with in 1984 Hermes became heaver Mini shuttle
and to big for common Core Booster (and there were also Pogo problems too)
so the desgin chance to 2 solid booster with core stage.
while Hermes got in Problem, Ariane 5 development wend good
(except the Little problem with software and main engine ::) )

in 1999 Ariane 5 was ready, but never it launch its main Payload Hermes
then atlast in 2008 Ariane 5ES launch Jules Verne ATV to ISS.
 

CFE

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The crew ejection system would seem like a waste of mass that would only be effective during the late stages of the glide back to base. It appears that Hermes already had a means of separating from an exploding booster during ascent, similar to that used by the X-20 (rockets in the stage adapter.)

Hermes was initially a good idea, but like so many programs it was doomed by requirements creep.
 

Michel Van

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first they think to make Ariane 5 98% launch save like the Shuttle
then 1986 the Hermes crew ejection system came

first idea was separate the cockpit with pirotech and catapult with rocket away
hat to work up high to 50 km and speed mach 5-6.
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1988%2008.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1988%2005.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1988%2006.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1989%2001.jpg

but that reduce place in Cockpit from 6 to 3 men
an increase the mass of Hermes to 20 tons

second Idea were ejection capsule for each Crew member
in end they talk about use of Soviet ejection seats in Hermes

i wonder that the 1989 Kvochur's MiG-29 crash has something to do with ?

looking back how they try to make Hermes save
the guys at Dassault overlook the easy way

to put Solid booster under Hermes (same system like in X-20)
i mean that Hermes don't needed a complex escape system like they proposed
make Hermes it self the Escape system and glide back to launch site
or close to it
 

blackstar

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Triton said:
It's a real shame that this project was cancelled. Seems like such a waste to spend all that money developing Ariane 5 and making it man rated.

They just could not make the engineering work. It was too heavy. France spent a lot of money on Hermes and eventually realized that the design was never going to work. Spending more money was pointless.
 

CFE

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What landing sites were proposed for Hermes? Would it touch down in French Guiana or somewhere in the EU? Maybe the Capcome Space website has the info, but my Francais is mal.

I'd have to say there's a very good reason why crew escape modules haven't been very popular. My understanding of the F-111 escape module is that it wasn't very effective. Ditto for the time it was tried on the B-1A. The indivicual ejection capsules on the B-58 and XB-70 didn't have the best track record, either.
 

flateric

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CFE said:
but my Francais is mal.

My Francais is at zero, but why don't use Google language tools?
 

Michel Van

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CFE said:
What landing sites were proposed for Hermes? Would it touch down in French Guiana or somewhere in the EU? Maybe the Capcome Space website has the info, but my Francais is mal.

here the answer

here a map for Hermes Landing sites

Kourou space center
the island Fort de France
the Bermudas
Istres in south France
here is intresting question
were Shuttle landing sites also for Hermes ?

return of Hermes back to Launch site would made by Airbus


there were 3 mission types for Hermes
one flights were experiment are made on Bord in a equator orbit in 800 km height
Second flight to automatic platform in 98 degres orbit in 500 km
Third flight to Space Station
U.S. Freedom at 28.5 degres orbit or ESA station in 60 degres
 

Archibald

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Hermes was supposed to land at Kourou but the landing strip faced a bizarre problem : frogs ! (not the french themselves, TRUE frogs ::)
There was a non-negligible risk of frog invasion on the landing strip, ruining Hermes tires and brakes at landing.

(from James Oberg)

http://www.jamesoberg.com/0703xx-kourou-soyuz.pdf

By the way, if anyone interested I'll be glad translating the Hermes article at Capcom.

I think I may translate it, then put it on a dedicated blog somewhere on the web. I think I would need the webmaster authorization for that ? (Didier Capdevilla)
 

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blackstar said:
Unfortunately, there is a really nice four-page foldout section with a cutaway of the entire vehicle. That would require careful scanning and restitching.

Turns out in backup storage I had a copy of that cutaway. I seem to recall that it originated in a magazine, not a brocure, so the quality probably isn't quite the same... but it's still pretty good. Anyway, I've posted that and a few other Hermes art bits on my blog:
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=2427

I've got two versions of the cutaway... one with the number-labels on it, the other where I've painted them out, showing just the vehicle.
 

Triton

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Orionblamblam said:
blackstar said:
Unfortunately, there is a really nice four-page foldout section with a cutaway of the entire vehicle. That would require careful scanning and restitching.

Turns out in backup storage I had a copy of that cutaway. I seem to recall that it originated in a magazine, not a brocure, so the quality probably isn't quite the same... but it's still pretty good. Anyway, I've posted that and a few other Hermes art bits on my blog:
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=2427

I've got two versions of the cutaway... one with the number-labels on it, the other where I've painted them out, showing just the vehicle.

Thank you for posting the cutaways and the concept art. Great stuff! ;D
 

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Archibald said:
Hermes was supposed to land at Kourou but the landing strip faced a bizarre problem : frogs ! (not the french themselves, TRUE frogs ::)
Well I guess we ALSO can be a problem, sometimes! LOL ;D
Archibald said:
There was a non-negligible risk of frog invasion on the landing strip, ruining Hermes tires and brakes at landing.
Not even to mention what it would have done to the frogs... ::)
 

Michel Van

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i found on E-bay and found this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1985-BA-MARCEL-DASSAULT-HERMES-SPACE-SHUTTLE-BROCHURE_W0QQitemZ260173693710QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Aeronautica_MJ?hash=item3c938f830e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_500wt_933

this is the 1985 version of Hermes
Interesting publicity brochure for the proposed space shuttle `Hermes` being a joint British / French collaboration
Hard to believe there was ever a possibility this could have been manufactured!

FRENCH-BRITISCH COLLABORATION ?!

got some one more information on that ?
 

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What I want to know is why they couldn't 'common core booster' the Ariane 4 series to get a mini spaceplane launcher, i mean, designing a new commercial launcher around a vehicle that is going to be launched once or twice a year and one which has little in common with the previous launcher - whose bright idea was that???
 

Michel Van

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PMN1 said:
What I want to know is why they couldn't 'common core booster' the Ariane 4 series to get a mini spaceplane launcher, i mean, designing a new commercial launcher around a vehicle that is going to be launched once or twice a year and one which has little in common with the previous launcher - whose bright idea was that???

oh hermes got to fat

then the "Common core booster" approach with Ariane 4 had also some faults
like Pogo with 5 engine Ariane 4 core + 4 Booster engine
the height of rocket was to long (bigger as today Ariane 5)
also the high cost of toxic fuel in first stage and Booster

Picture "Common core booster" prototype vs final Ariane 5
 

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This picture on Astronautix http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/h/hrms84b.gif shows an early version of Hermes on an initial Ariane 5 design from 1984, which consisted of an existing Ariane 4 booster stage with a new upper stage.

Martin

P.S. I realize it is preferable to post attachments rather than links for illustrations, but I haven't been able to figure out how to include images in posts - any enlightenment would be welcome. I tried both the 'insert image' button and the 'Attach' window, but nothing showed up in the preview.
 

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martinbayer

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Well, I guess the preview function does NOT pertain to illustrations. So much for that.

Martin
 

Michel Van

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Not quite
the 1982 Ariane 5R "Common core booster" Version
had more Fuel and 5 Viking engine as Ariane 4
the Fifth engine had brought Pogo oscillation on core stage
that and the overlength of Rocket means a resonance frequency of the rocket
which can in extreme cases tear the vehicle apart !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_oscillation



martinbayer said:
P.S. I realize it is preferable to post attachments rather than links for illustrations, but I haven't been able to figure out how to include images in posts - any enlightenment would be welcome. I tried both the 'insert image' button and the 'Attach' window, but nothing showed up in the preview.

is better to upload illustrations in this forum
and not link them from external source like Astronautix, they block
but you can link illustrations inside this forum (like my Ariane Picture)
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6745.0.html

Preview on upload Picture don't work...
 

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According to http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1982fle..nasa..559C, it appears that at some initial point Ariane 4 was in fact considered powerful enough for Hermes at least for low, circular orbits, which is a typical target orbit for crewed systems anyway. Note also that http://www.astronautix.com/craft/hermes.htm mentions that originally two qualification flights for Hermes (based on admittedly wildly overoptimistic launch mass estimates) on the Ariane 4 were planned for mid 1998. That jibes with my recollections on an analysis of the Hermes program I was involved in in the early Nineties http://opensigle.inist.fr/handle/10068/77190, which later resulted in an IAF paper and an article in Space Policy http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V52-3XWRMX6-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1053370985&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=75a7f46f6ce7efbf5c411625bc39b095.

Martin
 

martinbayer

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I dug around a little further, and according to "Europe's Space Programme: to Ariane and Beyond" by Brian Harvey http://books.google.com/books?id=kYZBLzW7r4cC&pg=PA295&lpg=PA295&dq=%22hermes+on+an+ariane+4%22&source=bl&ots=5UoeUE0Kcy&sig=yA1UTR0KnxtTxObhyY4Dt9MAzIo&hl=en&ei=dKnbSo6AFYiwswO3mPCxCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22hermes%20on%20an%20ariane%204%22&f=false, ONERA put Hermes on an Ariane 4 model in its wind tunnel in the late Seventies. "Janes Spaceflight Directory" from 1987 states on page 15 that Hermes' launch mass was at first estimated at 10 to 12 metric tons. The lower bound of this range corresponds well with the maximum payload capability of the Ariane 44L of about 10.2 metric tons to a circular 200 km orbit at 5.2 degrees inclination shown on page 2.9 of the Ariane 4 User's Manual, Issue 1 of April 1983, Rev. 7, especially keeping in mind that this performance does take into account the payload fairing mass that would not have been required in the Hermes version.

The "Raumfahrt-Lexikon" by Bruno Stanek from 1983 shows Hermes on an Ariane 5, which has a first stage that is clearly based on Ariane 4 and does NOT feature a central fifth engine, on page 113. Similarly, the "Lexikon der Raumfahrt and Weltraumforschung" by Heinz Mielke from 1986 shows Hermes on an Ariane 5, the first stage of which is virtually undistinguishable in dimensions, configuration and engine arrangement from the different Ariane 4 configurations depicted in the same illustration, on page 51. A corresponding illustration of an Ariane 5 with Hermes, the first stage of which is a dead ringer of the Ariane 4, is for example shown on page 257 of "Jane's Spaceflight Directory" by Reginald Turnill from 1984.

Martin
 

Michel Van

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That "Hermes" on Ariane 4 was the 1977 "Systéme Ariane Véhilcule Habitable"
pre-version of Hermes a ONERA study on order by CNES
3 Astronauts with 120 kg bagages and 400 kg payload

mission:
Earth observation in 200 km orbit at 60° angle
Rendezvous and dock with space station in 400 km orbit at 30° angle
Rendezvous with passive space craft in 200 km orbit at 30° angle
and transfer and dock with space station in 400 km orbit at 30° angle
(sometimes refers as rescue mission)
source in french
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1977_84.htm

in 1978 Hermes is a Lightwight Dyna-Soar glider build from Composite material !
with mass of 10 tonnes and already the Ariane 5R as launch rocket
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1981%20hermes.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1981%20hermes%2002.jpg
Hermes has place for 5 astronauts or 2 astronauts and 1500 kg cargo
cabin 6,3 meter long volume 15 cubicmeter
Hermes had no EVA hatch like the shuttle, but vented the Air out cabin like Apollo or Gemini Capsule
and had only air supply for one singel EVA
Power produce by Fuelcell like Space shuttle for mission time of 7 day
Used fuel NTO/hydrazine
a Dyna soar like escape system is put under Hermes
cost in 1980 German Mark 4 billion until first launch in year 1988

source:
German Spaceflight book by Harry O. Ruppe
Die Grenzenlose Dimension Raumfahrt Band 1
Page 636-642

in french
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1977_84.htm

around 1982 Hermes began to mutated horribly
it became the French shuttle, now traditional aluminum hull
had a cargobay with robot arm and EVA hatch like the U.S. shuttel and more and more Heavy
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1984%2002.jpg

to much for The Ariane 5R "Common core booster" already in deep problems
and in same time was in CNES, the battle between Hermes and Minotaur fraction
Minotaur was french proposal for manned capsule for Orbital platform SOLARIS proposal
 

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