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Happy Saint Nicholas Day

archipeppe

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Thanks Triton, especially for my daughter cause she's named Nicole.... ;D
 

Michel Van

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thx Triton

Hammer Birchgrove, that's real mean Krampus !

in Netherlands and Belgium
he more harmless
Sintenpiet.jpg

and called Swarte Piet ( Black Peter )
 

Orionblamblam

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Triton said:
I wanted to wish my friends on Secret Projects a very happy Saint Nicholas Day.

Time to sit around the fire and tell those wonderful kid's stories about old Saint Nick:

Another legend[12] tells how a terrible famine struck the island and a malicious butcher lured three little children into his house, where he slaughtered and butchered them, placing their remains in a barrel to cure, planning to sell them off as ham. Saint Nicholas, visiting the region to care for the hungry, not only saw through the butcher's horrific crime but also resurrected the three boys from the barrel by his prayers. Another version of this story, possibly formed around the eleventh century, claims that the butcher's victims were instead three clerks who wished to stay the night. The man murdered them, and was advised by his wife to dispose of them by turning them into meat pies. The Saint saw through this and brought the men back to life.

What would Christmas be without child murder, cannibalism, necromancy and sorcery?

Yeah and just *try* that "Black Peter" stuff here in the States. You'll have Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson jump on you so fast your head will spin.
 

Maveric

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A very happy Saint Nicholas Day.
 

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BAROBA

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Orionblamblam said:
Yeah and just *try* that "Black Peter" stuff here in the States. You'll have Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson jump on you so fast your head will spin.

That is why this years the boat of Saint-Nicholas sailed thru a rainbow.... I kid you not... (Only in The Netherlands :) )
061129_272_kleurpiet.jpg
 

Michel Van

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Orionblamblam said:
Yeah and just *try* that "Black Peter" stuff here in the States. You'll have Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson jump on you so fast your head will spin.
the Alternative version is Krampus, but that more a daemon


BAROBA said:
That is why this years the boat of Saint-Nicholas sailed thru a rainbow.... I kid you not... (Only in The Netherlands :) )
ah yes, Saint-nicholas sailed from Spain under rainbow to Netherlands
i wonder if this has to made with, that Netherlands was Spain colony...
 

Dreamfighter

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Michel Van said:
that Netherlands was Spain colony...

Sorry, that is not completely correct;

Though theoretically the whole of the "Netherlands" (Northern and Southern provinces) belonged to the Spanish Empire in the
16th century (the Spanish King Felipe II was the son of Emperor Charles who was born in the Southern Netherlands Provinces), Spain only occupied the "Southern Provinces" of the Netherlands. These Southern Provinces are now "Belgium" (not taking into account a part of the most southern region, which now is situated in the north of France).

The "Netherlands' Northern Provinces", now just known as "the Netherlands", resisted Spanish government and were never conquered by the Spanish troops (and remained mostly protestant, as contrary with the southern provinces which had a lot of Spanish catholic influence).

The Southern Provinces were cut off from the Northern ones ever since and were subsequently occupied by the Spanish, the Prusians, and the French. There was a shortlived reunification with (or occupation by) the North in the first half of the 19th century; after the defeat of Napoleon and till the independence and creation of "Belgium" in 1830.

Btw, "Sinterklaas" or "Sint-Nicolaas" -day is more poplular in (catholic) Belgium, while the major part of (protestant) Netherlands celebrates "Sint-Maarten"-day.
 

Antonio

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Netherlands was Spain colony

That's not the truth.

Emperor Charles who was born in the Southern Netherlands Provinces

Charles was the son of a Habsburg and a Spanish Infanta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_I_of_Castile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

Thus Charles inherited Netherlands from his father and Spain from his mother. As a result, no colony here, just territories joined under the same person.

Charles faced opposition both from Castilian and Netherland Nobility. Castilian rebels were supressed but conflict in Netherland extended for many years into Charles son (Emperor Philip) reign.
 

Antonio

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Dreamfighter, thanks for that excellent explanation. I agree about 98% so it's ok for me. I don't want to go off topic.

Just let me ask a little doubt, Saint Nicolas and Sint Marteen are the same character?. I mean he is Santa Claus/Le Pere Noël?.
I'm a bit lost with such a lot of names.
 

martinbayer

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pometablava,

Sint Maarten/St. Martin/Sankt Martin refers to Martin of Tours http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_of_Tours. He is celebrated across Europe on November 11, the remembrance of which in turn led to the timing of Armistice Day in WWI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Martin%27s_Day. Of course, in Germany that's also the beginning of the Carnival season http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival_in_Germany,_Switzerland_and_Austria, but that's a whole other story ;D.

Martin
 

Dreamfighter

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Indeed, "Saint-Martin" and "Saint-Nicolas" and "Santa/Santa Claus" are 3 totally different "saints" ::)
What similar is, is that they all bring gifts to the children (through the chimney ;D ).

"Saint-Martin" (Nov 11th) and "Saint-Nicolas" (Dec 6th) are celebrated in Europe (mostly Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, and perhaps (?) France).
Saint-Martin is more popular in protestant regions/cities, and Saint-Nicolas in catholic regions/cities.

"Santa" (Dec 25th) is celebrated in the USA.
Since a while and because of US cultural influence floating over to Europe, the "Santa" character is now being commercialised in Europe and shows up more and more in the streets around the Christmas-period.

Translations:
"Saint-Martin" = Sint-Maarten (Dutch/Flemish), Sankt Martin (German), Saint-Martin (French)
"Saint-Nicolaus" = Sint-Nicolaas or Sinterklaas (Dutch/Flemish), Sankt Nikolaus (German), Saint-Nicolas (French)
"Santa" or "Santa Claus" or "Father Christmas" = Kerstman (Dutch/Flemish), Weihnachtsmann (German), Père Noël (French)
 

martinbayer

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Actually, as opposed to Saint Martin, Saint Nicholas/Sinterklaas/Santa Claus are closely related and inspired by the same historical figure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus

Father Christmas is another associated character that got thrown in the mix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Christmas, while the name Kris Kringle seems to be inspired by the Christkind tradition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christkind.

Martin
 

Dreamfighter

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Well...

"Sinterklaas" or "Saint-Nicolas" are one and the same person; "Sinterklaas" is just a Dutch/Flemish dialect for "Sint-Nicolaas". He is celebrated exclusively on his feastday (RIP-day), the 6th of december.
"Saint-Martin" is much similar, but is a different person.

"Santa Claus" on the other hand originates in the USA, though his name is indeed most probably inspired on tales by early European colonists of the celebration of "Saint-Nicolas (= Sinterklaas) " on the Old Continent.
But "Santa Claus" is associated with Christmas, and presents aren't given on the 6th of december. So, though historically his name is inspired on Saint-Nicolas, through the ages he became a different and fictional character.
 

martinbayer

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Yep, and that morphing/evolution from the original historical figure is neatly captured and described in the Wikipedia entries... ;)

Still, the root is the same, and different from that of Saint Martin.
 

Dreamfighter

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martinbayer said:
Yep, and that morphing/evolution from the original historical figure is neatly captured and described in the Wikipedia entries... ;)

I didn't bother to read those Wikipedia-entries, just had a brief look at the first sentences. I'll assume the entries are more or less correct. (I don't consider Wikipedia as an accurate source, though it often is helpfull.)
I'm just very familiar with the history about Saint-Nicolas/Sinterklaas & Co., because I grew up putting a shoe with a carrot for his horse in it in front of my dad's chimney, on the evening of the 5th of December. And besides aviation, I'm also interested in many other things, History included. ;)
 

Antonio

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Thanks again for the comprehensive info Dreamfighter and Martibayer.

I didn't knew nothing about the 6th December.

When I was a child we received presents the 6th January only which is The Wise Men Day (we call them Los Reyes Magos). There was no Santa Claus tradition at all. We added it to Christmas celebrations by the 80's but it was the American variant so now Spanish children receive presents on 25th December too.
 

martinbayer

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Dreamfighter,

as a native German, I have first hand familiarity with (and associated fond childhood memories of) the Advent and Christmas customs in that country as well, and although I certainly agree that Wikipedia is not always reliable, at least the sections of the entries related to Nikolaus, the Weihnachtsmann and the Christkind are definitely authoritative ;). But of course there are numerous other sources as well that all corroborate and document the Saint Nicholas/Sinterklaas/Santa Claus connection to satisfy your historic interests:

http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/xmas/
http://www.americanantiquarian.org/Exhibitions/Christmas/santa.htm
http://www.thehistoryofchristmas.com/santa_claus.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_evolution_of_Santa_Claus
http://logosresourcepages.org/Holidays/santaclause.htm
http://www.orlutheran.com/html/santa.html
http://www.santaclausfun.com/evolution_of_santa_claus-20906.php
http://www.northpolesantaclaus.com/santahistory.htm
http://lnstar.com/mall/main-areas/santafaq.htm
http://www.history.com/topics/santa-claus
http://www.biography.com/santa-claus/

Happy holiday season :)!

Martin
 

Dreamfighter

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Danke Martin, gleichfalls! :)

Vielleicht Sankt-Nikolaus (Saint Nicolas) könnte folgendes Geschenk für die Kinder mitbringen:

http://www.playmobil.de/on/demandware.store/Sites-DE-Site/de_DE/Product-Show?pid=4887&cgid=Weihnachten

Und der Weihnachtsmann (Santa Claus):

http://www.playmobil.de/on/demandware.store/Sites-DE-Site/de_DE/Product-Show?pid=4890&cgid=Weihnachten

Für Prometablava: the 3 Wise Men

http://www.playmobil.de/on/demandware.store/Sites-DE-Site/de_DE/Product-Show?pid=4886&cgid=Weihnachten

As a kid, I usually got Playmobil for Saint-Nicolas-Day or Christmas... ;D
 

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