• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

HAIG Z-20 Utility Helicopter

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
198
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
Is the Changhe Z-20 an unlicensed copy of the Sikorsky S-70? How similar does an aircraft need to be to an existing aircraft for it to be considered a counterfeit or copy?
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,011
Reaction score
180
5-bladed against 4-bladed main rotor, X-tailrotor against conventional one (and on the other side)... and a heli to my opinion is
mostly defined by its dynamic components. And the rest, well, certainly "inspired", but if form follows function, what else was
to be expected ? ;)
 

Attachments

totoro

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
264
Reaction score
6
Website
www.youtube.com
the thing under the tarp doesn't even follow that model perfectly. aside of the tail wheel difference, there are several fuselage/tail shape differences as well. Just slight line variations that make it a bit different than s70.
 

Jemiba

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,011
Reaction score
180
Differences in the order of those between the Boeing 787 and the Airbus A 350, I think.
Could be hard to convince a court.
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
198
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
Are airframe designs protected by patent and would it depend on whether the country recognized these patents?
 

lancer21

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
290
Reaction score
3
Said to be first Z-20 bort 20001. Not sure if someone is fooling around with PS on this one (still 5% chance), but if it's the real deal, then it's another major milestone for the chinese aerospace industry.

(Oh and yeah i expect the "China copycat!!11!!11" screams just like for Y-20- developed with Antonov help btw-, the helo is of SIMILAR configuration to S-70 but NOT identical, there are MANY detail differences for those willing to look carefully, different from even the known model and fan drawings)
 

Attachments

Trident

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
831
Reaction score
23
While I agree that the Z-20 has sufficient major differences in the completely new rotor system not to qualify as a blatant rip-off, it is still uncomfortably close - certainly way closer than any Western company making a S-70 rival would ever dare to attempt. So as, you would say in the Stuttgart area, a 'Gschmäckle' remains.
Incidentally, that's also one of the reasons why I'm not quite convinced by the photo posted - it appears to show a standard four-bladed Black Hawk tail rotor, not the WZ-10-like X-configuration. So either it is fake, one of China's existing S-70s or the Z-20 is in fact much more of a copy after all ;)
EDIT: can't really be one of their S-70s, as it has 5 main rotor blades. That leaves two options.
 

Blitzo

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
362
Reaction score
0
Yeah I don't think this is anything in the class of comparing Y-20 to C-17.


z-20 is derived from Uh-60 plain and simple.... With what looks like a few small improvements.
 

Deino

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,504
Reaction score
63
Uppps ... a long sleeping tread: here are some news !

Just spotted last week a Z-18A + the prototype at the Mohe Gulian Airport in Heilongjiang Province.

Also it seems a second prototype was under construction in mid 2014.

Deino
 

Attachments

frank

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
617
Reaction score
4
I just remembered. Back in the early '90s, I saw a drawing of the proposed Mil Mi-40 (not the better known Mi-40 we have seen models of in recent years) and it looked very much like the forward fuselage of a Black Hawk with the tail boom and main and tail rotors of an Mi-28. The joke we made at the USAR unit was that it would be called a "Black Havoc". I wonder how much the Z-20 could be related to that proposal, if at all. I'll have to see if I still have that drawing soewhere.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,074
Reaction score
347
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/191048/chinese-copy-of-blackhawk-helicopter-enters-service.html

"After having copied several French helicopter designs, China has put in service the first copy of a US-designed helicopter, the Z-20, which it openly acknowledges is a copy of the Sikorsky Blackhawk. "

Of course China never copies anybody else's stuff.
 

Attachments

totoro

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
264
Reaction score
6
Website
www.youtube.com
They're not necessarily in service yet. The airframes visible in photos have prototype nomenclature. Text cited seems to be defence-aerospace.com editorial, while the rest of the text in the link is copy paste from the china military website, sort of semi-official PLA promotional website. The text says this: "The Z-20 medium-lift utility helicopter is said to be in the late stage of development. It is expected that in the near future, the final design work of the Z-20 will be completed and the helicopter will soon join the PLA Army and Navy service. "

IF the Navy bit is not just writer jumping to conclusion, it would be one of first indications Z-20 is indeed going to be used by PLAN, as well. (I believe the very first indication was one image of 055 class destroyer with what seems to be Z-20 variant on it. Image being published by the shipyard, I believe)
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
892
Reaction score
70
I am just not surprised by this, the pattern is repeated over and over. No doubt the chain will be broken and royalties will be paid but in the real world.......
 

LowObservable

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
2,169
Reaction score
26
Do they intend to carry them around in Y-8s? Because the H-60 owes its lizard-like profile to a requirement to fit inside a C-130 or C-141 with minimal disassembly.
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
198
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
China Has High Hopes For Z-20 Helicopter
by Chen Chuanren

November 22, 2017, 7:15 AM

Source:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-11-22/china-has-high-hopes-z-20-helicopter-0

China’s new Z-20 medium utility helicopter has come closer to full operational capability by completing high-altitude tests at Xiahe airfield in Gansu Province. Photos of two Z-20s—serials 635, 636 bearing the insignia of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF)—emerged on the Chinese internet, indicating that the helicopters were handed over to the service from their manufacturer the Harbin Aircraft Industry Group (HAIG), for final tests and evaluations. The tests were conducted at up to 4,000 m (13,200 feet).

The Z-20 requirement dates back to the 1980s, when China was seeking a medium utility helicopter for operations in the mountainous west region. The PLAAF eventually acquired 24 Sikorsky S-70C-2s with the enhanced General Electric T700-701A engines. It was reported that the S-70’s performance in the highlands was unmatched, even with the later acquisition by China of Mil Mi-17V5 helicopters from Russia.

Development of the so-called “10-tonne helicopter project” started in 2006 when a small-scale model of the Z-20 was shown at that year’s Zhuhai Airshow. But it was not until December 23, 2013 that the Z-20 made its first flight. It made its first public appearance at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow.

At first look, the Z-20 bears a strong resemblance to the Sikorsky UH-60/S-70 Black Hawk series. It is commonly referred to as the Chinese Black Hawk. However, Z-20 designer Deng Jinghui told Chinese media that the Z-20 is a fly-by-wire design. Key visual differences are five main rotor blades on the Z-20, and more angular tail–to-fuselage joint frame. Military observer Huo Yanbin thinks that these features will give the Z-20 more lift and greater cabin capacity and endurance than the Black Hawk.

The most recent photos also show a new fairing installed aft of the engine exhausts and another on the tail spine, which are likely housings for satellite communications or the BeiDou (Big Dipper) satellite navigation system.

A crucial part of a successful development of the Z-20 would be the integration of its engines. It is widely believed that the primary powerplant for the Z-20 is the domestic WZ-10 turboshaft engine, providing 1,600 kW (about 2,145 shp). In comparison, the latest UH-60 GE T700-701D engines produce 1,500 kW (about 2,011 shp).

Beyond highland operations, Huo thinks the Z-20 will be a key air mobility and projection platform for the PLA, and will also provide the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) with a much-needed multi-role naval helicopter. Huo says that compared to the Harbin Z-8/18 series, the smaller size of the Z-20 and its newer systems will enable the Z-20 to be interoperable across all PLAN ships, yet large enough to install a full suite of anti-submarine capabilities. These are not found in the navy’s current Harbin Z-9 and Kamov Ka-28 helicopters.
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
198
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
sferrin said:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/191048/chinese-copy-of-blackhawk-helicopter-enters-service.html

"After having copied several French helicopter designs, China has put in service the first copy of a US-designed helicopter, the Z-20, which it openly acknowledges is a copy of the Sikorsky Blackhawk. "

Of course China never copies anybody else's stuff.
Popular Mechanics magazine dubbed the Harbin Z-20 as the "Copyhawk"

Source:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a28956/china-blackhawk-helicopter-copyhawk/
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
198
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
Source:
https://photo.sina.cn/album_8_199_61196.htm?ch=8&vt=4&hd=1
http://www.wargamehk.com/cgf/redirect.php?tid=174943&goto=lastpost
http://www.popyard.com/cgi-mod/newspage.cgi?num=4734397&r=0&v=0
http://errymath.blogspot.com/2016/11/finally-clear-images-of-z-20-helicopter.html#.WpSWqueIaUk
 

Attachments

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,074
Reaction score
347
Well at least we can finally agree that China doesn't rip off other countries' designs.
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
198
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
From China mil via Xinhui. It tell the arduous development of Z20. When they publicly tell the story it could only mean that it is close to the end of development
Source
China Military Online
Editor
Yao Jianing
Time
2018-02-24

Source:
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/z-20.t6294/page-66

New online photos of China's Z-20 10-ton utility helicopter have sparked heated discussion on the Internet. Let’s take a look at the new helicopter.

The Z-20 is the informal name of a medium-lift (9-10 tons) utility helicopter (similar to the Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk) developed independently by China. The official name of this helicopter will be announced when it is commissioned.

In recent years, a large number of Z-10, Z-19 and other armed helicopters have joined the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA), making up for China's lack of reconnaissance and attack helicopters.

However, China has been lacking a 10-ton general tactical helicopter to carry out assault transport, airlift and logistic support tasks. Although China has the large military transport aircraft Y-20, it is more suitable for remote transport and delivery tasks. Short-range transport and assault operations still need a general helicopter like the Z-20.

China acquired 24 US Black Hawk helicopters in the 1980s. These helicopters helped China fully understand the leading aviation technology of the US. The Black Hawk’s flight performance, material technology and reliability were much higher than those of China’s homegrown helicopters at that time.

In the 1980s, it was said that the Black Hawk was the only helicopter in China that could be used in the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau. The Black Hawk played a huge role in many remote areas of China. As late as the 2008 Wenchuan earthquake, eighteen UH-60 Black Hawks were dispatched to conduct rescue operations, although these helicopters had been in high-load service for many years.

China once considered copying the Black Hawk when it was first introduced to China. Although the model was only the civil export model, the technology was something beyond China’s reach at that time. For example, the manufacturing process of large-size titanium parts used in Black Hawk couldn’t be found in Chine even in the 1990s.

Although the Black Hawk was a product of the 1970s, China was not able to come up with a similar product even in the early 21st century. As it is with most models, the learning process from the Black Hawk was a very difficult process requiring countless accumulation in materials, workmanship, processing and research and development, as well as 20 years of running-in and an experienced team.

The arduous course of the development of the Chinese helicopter industry has actually been a painful process that countries with less developed aviation industries must go through.

The Z-20 medium-lift utility helicopter is said to be in the late stage of development. It is expected that in the near future, the final design work of the Z-20 will be completed and the helicopter will soon join the PLA Army and Navy service.

In the foreseeable future, the combination of the Y-20 transport aircraft and Z-20 utility helicopter will effectively link the strategic and tactical transport in the PLA.

Disclaimer: The information, ideas or opinions appearing in this article are those of the author from the Ifeng News and do not reflect the views of eng.chinamil.com.cn. Chinamil.com.cn does not assume any responsibility or liability for the same. If the article carries photographs or images, we do not vouch for their authenticity
.
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
198
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
Once produced in sufficient numbers the Z-20 could replace a fleet of Russian Mi-17 helicopters in service with the PLAAF.

The Z-20 is a copy of the Sikorsky S-70 which is a basic military utility helicopter of the US Army where it is known as the UH-60 Black Hawk. The original helicopter is also in widespread use worldwide. It appeared that Sikorsky licensed production of this helicopter in China for non-military use. It seems that China is violating this agreement. Civilian Sikorsky S-70C-2 helicopters are used by the PLAAF since 1984. A total of 24 Sikorsky helicopters were obtained. Deliveries ceased in 1989 due to imposed sanctions against China. The Z-20 made its first flight almost 30 years since China acquired the original Sikorsky S-70 helicopters.

The Z-20 helicopter accommodates about 12-15 fully-equipped troops. It has a payload capacity of around 5 000 kg. It can carry around 1 000 kg internally and 4 000 kg externally. It can transport various loads, such as vehicles and artillery pieces underslung externally.

This utility helicopter can be armed with machine guns and possibly other weapons, such as anti-tank and air-to-air missiles, or pods with unguided rockets.

There is a nose-mounted FLIR/TV turret.

The Z-20 has some minor differences comparing with the Black Hawk. Notably it has a five-blade rotor, comparing with the Black Hawk's four-blade. It seems that the Z-20 uses rotor, engines and some other components of the Z-10 attack helicopter. It is speculated that this machine is powered by Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-76C turboshaft engines. Also it could be powered by a WZ-10 turboshafts, developing around 2 400 shp each. Some sources report that development of new transmission system has been assisted by Eurocopter.

The basic utility helicopter can be modified to suit many military roles. Some sources report that marine version of this helicopter is under development.
Source:
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/z20.htm
 

Michel Van

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
4,228
Reaction score
86
Interesting, but a UH-60 copy ?
Is this form follow function of a box with engine and aerodynamic cover ?

its hard to tell this days

like Shenzhou spacecraft first yell at as Soyuz copycat
but later it show clearly that is unattached Design that follow same mission type.
 

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,788
Reaction score
217

fredymac

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
1,485
Reaction score
76
Bell, Boeing, and Sikorsky all competed for the UTTAS contract with Boeing and Sikorsky proceeding to final evaluation. All 3 designs were distinctly different even though they were designed to the same specifications. Form follows function in the extent that they are all helicopters but cabin shape, door design, tail boom placement, etc are subject to design preferences.
 

Attachments

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,074
Reaction score
347
Michel Van said:
Interesting, but a UH-60 copy ?
Is this form follow function of a box with engine and aerodynamic cover ?
I get so tired of hearing "form follows function" as it's lazy and not really supported by reality. Yes, in gross terms, there is something to it, but not in the details. Did the X-32 look like the X-35? The YF-23 like the YF-22? Does the J-20 or T-50 look like the F-22? Does an AR-15 look like a Tavor or SCAR? Of course not. Because there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat. When it looks just like something else it's because it was copied. Period.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,074
Reaction score
347
fredymac said:
Bell, Boeing, and Sikorsky all competed for the UTTAS contract with Boeing and Sikorsky proceeding to final evaluation. All 3 designs were distinctly different even though they were designed to the same specifications. Form follows function in the extent that they are all helicopters but cabin shape, door design, tail boom placement, etc are subject to design preferences.
Go look at the competitors to the AH-64 or the AH-56. Same thing. VERY different looking.
 

totoro

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
264
Reaction score
6
Website
www.youtube.com
Anyway, within 10 years of PLA putting their Z-20 into service, US Army will be placing their FVL programme aircraft into service, replacing UH-60.

That might've been stretched out closer to 15 years had US not sold S-70 to China in 1980s. And Z-20 would probably be an enlarged AC352 then.

To be more on topic, I don't see Z-20 replacing many Mi-17 within PLA. I'd bet on them serving side by side, with PLA expanding their total current helicopter unit numbers.
 

overscan

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,517
Reaction score
917
sferrin said:
Michel Van said:
Interesting, but a UH-60 copy ?
Is this form follow function of a box with engine and aerodynamic cover ?
I get so tired of hearing "form follows function" as it's lazy and not really supported by reality. Yes, in gross terms, there is something to it, but not in the details. Did the X-32 look like the X-35? The YF-23 like the YF-22? Does the J-20 or T-50 look like the F-22? Does an AR-15 look like a Tavor or SCAR? Of course not. Because there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat. When it looks just like something else it's because it was copied. Period.
In this case, agreed 100%. There are lots of ways to design a helicopter. For it to be so similar means it must have started out as a 100% reverse engineered clone of the S-70 China has operated for ages. Obviously its been redesigned around new engines and likely the entire rotor system from the Z-10 or something, but a new design would not look so similar to the S-70 / UH-60.
 

kcran567

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
663
Reaction score
0
Blackhawk 20+ year old design,maybe not to get too upset about, now if China starts flying a Raider clone in a few short years, then something needs to be done to stop China's pilfering of Tech.

Maybe in some cases the tech is being transferred with permission to highest bidder?
 

yasotay

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,992
Reaction score
76
One might ponder the Chinese reaction if a western company were to develop a Z-10 analogue.
 

Moose

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
1,045
Reaction score
40
kcran567 said:
Blackhawk 20+ year old design,maybe not to get too upset about, now if China starts flying a Raider clone in a few short years, then something needs to be done to stop China's pilfering of Tech.

Maybe in some cases the tech is being transferred with permission to highest bidder?
Unless you're the company that developed and now builds Blackhawk and has been busting it's hump to get them into the hands of customers around the world, only to see a blatant clone the will no doubt end up on the market in competition to the real deal. Then you probably get quite upset.
 

kcran567

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
663
Reaction score
0
Would love to see that happen. Or Turkey, S. Korea or Japan build J-20 clones for that matter, using stolen or pilfered plans. Would love to see them get a taste of their own. They would probably be outraged. Maybe the Z-10 plans could end up in Israel.

Be pragmatic, develop own tech but when cost effective buy it steal it from China!
 
Top