German M-Class light cruiser

super_cacti

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
7 July 2019
Messages
8
Reaction score
4
I've been looking into the German M-class light cruiser lately, but I've been unable to find any good sources regarding it.

I was wondering if any of you might know a good place ti find these, also a good official blueprint of the ship would be great to have.
Is there some German archive I can use for this?
 
From Gröner/Jung/Maass "Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815 - 1945":

Amtsentwurf (official design) 1938, verbesserter Amtsentwurf (improved official design) 1940, designer in charge MarBrt (official title) Drießen.
ts max/ts standard 10400/7800, for Q and R ?/8568, length p.p/wl 183/178 m, for Q and R 196/188 m, width 17 m,for Q and R 18 m.
Propulsion : 2 turbines + 4 Diesel engines, for Q and R : 2 turbines + 8 Diesel engines, 35.5 kn, Q and R 36 kn
4 x 2 15 cm L55, 4 x 2 8,8 cm L76, 4 x 2 3,7 cm AA, 4 x 2 cm, 2 x 53,3 cm torpedo tubes, up to 60 mines, 2 aircraft.

The design show similarities to the French La Galissonniere and the British Southampton. This class was intended as commerce raiders for the
Atlantic, so in the need for high speed and long range. So, fire power and protection came second after those design points and the class raised
discussions between the design authorities and the German admiralty from the start, because the former regarded the requirements as unrealizable
within the given displacement. Several unsatisfactory solutions couldn't be rectified during the complete lifetime of those designs, e.g. the too weak
heavy AA, but a change to 10,5 cm wasn't possible, as it would have led to a weakened structure, limited firing arcs, or the deletion of the catapult.
These limitations led to the never finished enlarged design for the Q and R.
 

Attachments

  • Kreuzer_M-R.jpg
    Kreuzer_M-R.jpg
    68.5 KB · Views: 291
Ah thanks everyone! These will come in very handy.

On a side note, I'm also looking into the Dutch captured Eendracht-class hulls. These were renamed to KH 1 and KH 2 (KH meaning Kreuzer Holland).
KH 1 was planned to be armed with the 150mm turrets taken from the, by then canceled, M-class light cruiser.
I wonder if any blueprint of that exist anywhere.

EDIT: I've attached a blueprint I've made myself to sort of see what the KH 1 could have looked like.
 

Attachments

  • KH 1.jpg
    KH 1.jpg
    1.5 MB · Views: 305
Last edited:
KH1 was so big, probably can use Triple turret like Nuremberg
 

Attachments

  • SP1050815.JPG
    SP1050815.JPG
    87.9 KB · Views: 188
Last edited:
KH1 was so big, probably can use Triple turret like Nuremberg

That is true, but I think four triple turrets might be to heavy for the ship. If Germany had those 15 cm SK C/28 turrets left over it would have been logical of them to use those.

View attachment 642036


This is from "Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815-1945"

Oh wow thanks! Huh looks like the 37mm guns are the SK C/30 turrets, I thought the Flak M42 were going to be used.
 
According to Groner, the plan during 1941 was for KH1 to use the turrets from cruiser M with the 150mm guns taken from those allocated to battleship H. Although he doesn't say so, presumably KH2 would have used mountings from cruiser N and guns from battleships H and J.
Then in August 1941 it was decided to leave the final fitting out until demobilisation had taken place, which pretty much stopped much progress with KH1 and KH2.
 
According to Groner, the plan during 1941 was for KH1 to use the turrets from cruiser M with the 150mm guns taken from those allocated to battleship H. Although he doesn't say so, presumably KH2 would have used mountings from cruiser N and guns from battleships H and J.
Then in August 1941 it was decided to leave the final fitting out until demobilisation had taken place, which pretty much stopped much progress with KH1 and KH2.

It would be nice if we could find some German blueprints of the KH1 and 2. I really wonder what exact guns the KH2 was going to have.
 
It would be nice if we could find some German blueprints of the KH1 and 2. I really wonder what exact guns the KH2 was going to have.

I did wonder about that as I wrote my reply above.
M and N were cancelled very quickly in 1939 before much work was done on their hulls. Presumably orders for the armament would have been cancelled or deferred at that time. Groner seems to be implying that at least four turrets and mountings intended for M would have been completed by 1942. But those turrets never seem to crop again in future naval work or even as part of coastal defences later in the war. The fact that the 150mm guns themselves had to be taken from the battleship programme suggests that the orders for the M-class guns had been cancelled in September 1939, so it seems odd that the turrets and mountings would have continued in build after the hulls had been stopped and dissembled to clear the stocks. It's possible some parts had been made at the time work stopped in September 1939 and stored and in 1941 the decision was made to complete the work, if so it should have been relatively straightforward to build a second set of turrets for N. The cancelled H-class battleships should have supplied more than enough barrels assuming that at least 24 guns were built for H and J at least. If not then its possible other existing sources would have been looked at for 150mm calibre guns.
 
I did wonder about that as I wrote my reply above.
M and N were cancelled very quickly in 1939 before much work was done on their hulls. Presumably orders for the armament would have been cancelled or deferred at that time. Groner seems to be implying that at least four turrets and mountings intended for M would have been completed by 1942. But those turrets never seem to crop again in future naval work or even as part of coastal defences later in the war. The fact that the 150mm guns themselves had to be taken from the battleship programme suggests that the orders for the M-class guns had been cancelled in September 1939, so it seems odd that the turrets and mountings would have continued in build after the hulls had been stopped and dissembled to clear the stocks. It's possible some parts had been made at the time work stopped in September 1939 and stored and in 1941 the decision was made to complete the work, if so it should have been relatively straightforward to build a second set of turrets for N. The cancelled H-class battleships should have supplied more than enough barrels assuming that at least 24 guns were built for H and J at least. If not then its possible other existing sources would have been looked at for 150mm calibre guns.

I would assume that a couple of 150mm SK C/28 turrets were still left somewhere, only to be scrapped or used as fortification turrets. But like you mentioned, the large time period between the cancelation of the M-class and the KH1 and 2 is a bit odd.
Maybe they planned to make some new 150mm SK C/28 turrets for the KH1, instead of using older onces?
 

The undergunned oversized CL of the KM.
Not sure if it's a fair description.

Armament fits the purpose (scout for heavy units). Arguably it's even an overkill: looking at how later a much cheaper&equipment-intensive SP-1 was meant for a similar role, Germans certainly thought so.
Any opponent a small 6" cruiser can't overpower is better left to the accompanied BB. Opponent stronger than you - launch torpedoes, run.
M was clearly envisaged to rapidly chew through destroyer groups(two 4-gun groups with their own FC), which in retrospect was too much capability and not seen as really necessary.

Overgunned 6" light cruisers were a very treaty-forced development, and their positioning was quite far from this one.

Size is mostly a function of a very ambitious range&speed requirement with a given armament/protection (35kn; 8000@19). The profile is low for a 4-turret vessel, so for its purposes, downsides were kept to a reasonable minimum.
 
The earlier British Leander seems more useful, cost efficient and had better AA (Though after refit) and armour. I disagree that the battleships had to deal with the cruisers, their job to deal with the enemy battleships.

Leander: (Leander Group)
159,1 / 166,72 / 169 x 17 x 5,79m
6.985 / 9.280tons
13.000km and 61km/h
76/89mm Belt, 32/51mm Deck
4x2 6"
4x1 4" (4x2 after refit)
0x0 40mm (2x4 after refit)
0x0 20mm (7x1after refit)
3x4 12,7mm (0x0 after refit)
2x4 533mm TT
1x Aircraft
Refit was done in 1942

Leander: (Amphion Group)
159,1 / 166,72 / 171,4 x 17,3x 5,64m
7.105 / 9.150tons
13.000km and 60km/h
76/89mm Belt, 32/51mm Deck
4x2 6"
4x1 4" (4x2 after refit)
0x0 40mm (2x4 after refit)
0x0 20mm (5x2,5x1after refit)
3x4 12,7mm (0x0 after refit)
2x4 533mm TT
1x Aircraft
Refit was done in 1942

1st group M class (M class, 4 ships):
178 / 183 x 17 x 6,03m
7.800 / 10.400tons
14.800km and 66km/h
50mm Belt, 20mm Deck 35mm Slopes
4x2 15cm
2x2 8,8cm
4x2 3,7cm
4x1 2cm
2x4 533mm TT
2x Aircrafts

2nd group M class (Q class, 2 ships):
188/196 x 18 x 5,6m
8.568/12.400tons
14.800km and 66km/h
50mm Belt, 20mm Deck 35mm Slopes
4x2 15cm
3x2 8,8cm
4x2 3,7cm
4x1 2cm
2x4 533mm TT
2x Aircrafts
 
The earlier British Leander seems more useful, cost efficient and had better AA (Though after refit) and armour. I disagree that the battleships had to deal with the cruisers, their job to deal with the enemy battleships.
I.
Battleship deals with everything within reach; it's written in its name. The battle is no knight tournament in this regard. In Jutland, neither British battleships spared German light cruisers, nor German battleships spared British armored cruisers just because they weren't capital ships anymore.

This is one of the key distinctions between (1)light forces/long-range reconnaissance (which fends for itself and fights for itself - no help will come) and (2)battlefleet screen/tactical recon(which fights off light/asymmetric threats, and either torpedoes or runs away from anything it can't: in the vicinity there are ships that make all direct opposition meaningless). The best protection from BB fire is being small and nimble; the best way to spend money on the battle capability of a fleet cruiser is to not spend, and save any excessive money for the battleship ... or light forces.

This equation is more complicated for ships intended primarily to screen large ships - but Ms quite clearly weren't those. They're nothing more and nothing less than a scouting extension of pre-Z KM heavy ships, by necessity operating without any light screen; it just wasn't achievable even in theory before plan Z.
The ability to overpower anything lighter than them and reasonable independence in the open ocean came in handy.

II.
Leander(and especially La Galissonniere) is an interesting comparison, but.
(1)Leanders are purpose-built trade protection cruisers, i.e. a very different mission goal. Their corresponding fleet cruiser was the Arethusa class. Leanders' supposed German counterpart was Leipzig(with more or less comparable range/speed, ~6k@13kn) - and as we know, it utterly failed as a long-range raider/scout. It certainly could not work as a cruiser accompanying heavy ships penetrating into the Atlantic.

(2)Leanders were really a whole decade older; later ships of this period grew larger simply because of the ever-growing equipment margins. Especially since RN cruisers tended to be very spartan in this regard (not all Leanders got a proper DCT setup as built, while M has two fully-developed independent groups!). They weren't 35-knot designs, too, and that did come at a price. 1940 Agano (and Agano Kai) doesn't impress with size to guns ratio, either.
2.1 somewhat later(and more lavishly equipped) Amphion group was also very close in size, yet still much slower.

(3)Proper contemporaries for M-class are:
1. De Grasse - a universal design (both fleet and trade warfare). Very attractive if unproven, but it placed a lot of design effort in areas opposite of that Germans intended. Probably worth pointing out, that it was either it (and La Galissonniere) or newer French Oceanic C-Ts (Mogador and later) that were seen as reference opponents.

2. Dido - British fleet cruiser. Much smaller&slower, with DP armament, and expressly meant to perform screen duties. From a German perspective, this design doesn't work (slow, range/speed). May be unpopular - but due to overly heavy DP guns - it didn't work that well for RN either. Pride aside, Arethusas were just better in all regards. Better and more successful.
2.1 Crown Colony (Fiji group). British trade warfare cruiser(really a universal one, like D-G above) stuffed the Japanese way into 8500 Dst. Super impressive design, and those famously did a lot of fleet cruiser job (to be fair, so did the Towns). But it wasn't because they were meant to, and design priorities, again, a lot of opposites from that oceanic scout shall aim for.

3. Atlanta - US fleet cruiser/DD flagship. Similar class, but within the class - literally opposite priorities (DD leader with armament similar to them, strong emphasis on screening and AA).

4. Agano - Japanese fleet cruiser/DD flagship. Similar class, but a DD leader - explaining differences in their design. M wasn't.

III.
AA, at least in theory, wasn't supposed to matter all that much for ships designed very specifically for Oceanic action; it was indeed a mistake, but not an unique one.
For German units operating the way M was meant (i.e. quite deep in the Atlantic), their own AA really became a problem exactly once - and that once was the whole home fleet chasing down Bismarck for her crimes; expecting to fight off consequent air attack by fleet carriers is too much for a light cruiser. Otherwise, there was not much of an expected air threat far enough from the French&colonial coast, and what of it was there was potentially negatable through the effort of KM's own carrier force.
We aren't in a Pacific, where dozens of land-based long range torpedo planes can navigate many hundreds of miles straight into the open ocean, find their target there, attack it, and return. Not sure many in Europe even considered it's possible at all. Phillips didn't, and British Empire paid for it with its crown jewel.

And while it was indeed a mistake of judgment (meaning to operate somewhere doesn't mean you'll be only there), a rather spacey and weight-conservative design could get more equipment and AA when needed(Leander/Arethusa upgrades). Contemporary Fijis had to land guns to achieve that, and while super strong for their size - were always compromised by their extreme crampedness and lack of margins.
 
If the M class are strategic scouts for battle fleet, then their closest counterparts would be Heavy Cruisers and the large post-1930 London Treaty Light Cruisers.
 
If the M class are strategic scouts for battle fleet, then their closest counterparts would be Heavy Cruisers and the large post-1930 London Treaty Light Cruisers.
Tactical; for the strategic level, they still had their (far more expensive) heavy treaty cruisers(Adm. Hipper class) and almost built carriers(Grafs). M was just too weak and too small for that.
Here it's just an addition to the capital ship(s), meaning one more point(and horizon) at sea with additional floatplanes, and in general all the general functions of a fleet cruiser (steamer/contact inspections, rescuing/capturing/picking up downed pilots and ship crews, torpedoing off victims, keeping light shadowing ships off the horizon, shadowing someone on your own, etc etc - without disrupting advancement of the main force).
But, at least in the ocean and for the 1935 treaty fleet it would have rarely meant "fleet" in a proper sense - there were just not that many long-range combatants available within limits; the station was far from home bases.
More of a slightly more expanded version of real 1940/41 KM operations.

Later Z plan replayed this capability - now battlegroups (proper long-range task forces now) were to be 'serviced' by much smaller and basic diesel-powered SPs(Spahkreuzers - essentially an overgrown oceanic destroyers), and the aerial part was to be served by new dedicated lighter diesel-powered carriers.
 
Last edited:
@Ainen : Thank you.

It is exceptionally rare to find someone who gets the Kriegsmarine. I would hardly even have to say anything in this thread at all thanks to you. Unlike everyone, with rare exception, you understand that the Kriegsmarine is its own thing - and on top of that, have the capability to explain why. Far too many are fueled by preconceived notions, biases, and a fatally fundamental lack of understanding (which, naturally, when exposed is typically denied despite the obviously plain view of the contrary). Not only about the Kriegsmarine, but about naval design/strategy in general. I find it both rage-inducing and pretty amusing to see the hypocrisy between directly comparing designs of one nation to another, citing hard factors primarily and with no real consideration to the strategic or political situation, and then some of these have the gall to mock similar arguments made by naval enthusiast amateurs ("Iowa vs Yamato" springs first to mind). Every "OMG GERMAN DESIGNS ARE SO WEIGHT INEFFICIENT!!!" comment places me one step closer to insanity.
It's a rough world to live in for someone who studies the KM. Know too much and push too hard against ignorance and you find yourself labeled a Wehraboo, ignoring "facts and reality" for your "superior wunderwaffe" ships. Defer against speaking too often and acquiesce to every passing heckle and pop-history falsity and you learn that those you acquaint yourself with learn nothing as you fold to the local societal norms.
Regardless, I loved reading your comments so far. Wonderful observations and level of knowledge, 10/10.

Anyway, glad to have you here on SPF. I hope I get to see you more often on my thread.
 
Thank you for your kind words!

Domination of the Pacific War in the public conscience, probably.
As a result, European navies (even the mighty RN!) are mostly seen through just their ships.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom