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General Dynamics (Convair) GETOL studies

robunos

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...a General Dynamics "GETOL" (Ground Effext Take Off and Landing) craft. ...
this seems very similar in shape and operation to the Vought ADAM concept.

cheers,
Robin.
 

flateric

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well, I was always wondering who's behind these weird Stavatti designs
after I saw a photo of Christopher R. Beskar, Chairman & CEO, Stavatti Heavy Industries (sic!), Ltd.,

many questions felt apart...

P.S. I remember them since I went on the net ca 1994 and still wonder what money they are living for?
 

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AeroFranz

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Yes, that explains many things! ;D
 

Abraham Gubler

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This kind of company operates by encouraging private investment from ‘mom & pop’ investors. No legitimate stock exchange will allow them anywhere near their doors so they spuriously promote the advantages of not being publically listed for investors and the company alike. They continue to produce lots of apparently feasible looking promotional material for products that will return huge dividends when they ‘revolutionize’ whatever market they are operating in. People with more greed than sense poor in their hard earned and never see a buck back.

Unfortunately the defence domain seems to attract these types of companies as there is less public scrutiny of their business, less noise about being banned from the blue book and because defence unfortunately attracts the kind of nutter that thinks they have the invented some kind of ultimate weapon (it helps to be a ‘true believer’ in your own weird world as well as unscrupulous when it comes to operating a company like this).
 

Michel Van

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Stavatti Heavy Industries

they for real ?!
and i thought its somekind of Internet hoax from concept artist
 

Triton

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Wow!, are you saying this is a "real" company? I browsed through the Stavatti Heavy Industries, Ltd. web site several months ago. With its extensive use of in-game screen shots from the Laminar Research X-Plane flight simulator, I thought that this was just a website to download fictional aircraft models for X-Plane. I dismissed the aircraft designs, datasheets, marketing materials, and corporate officer biographies as fiction belonging to a ficticious company.
 

Abraham Gubler

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Triton said:
Wow!, are you saying this is a "real" company? I browsed through the Stavatti Heavy Industries, Ltd. web site several months ago. With its extensive use of in-game screen shots from the Laminar Research X-Plane flight simulator, I thought that this was just a website to download fictional aircraft models for X-Plane. I dismissed the aircraft designs, datasheets, marketing materials, and corporate officer biographies as fiction belonging to a ficticious company.
Send them your credit card number and see what happens...

Stavatti investors must be willing to place investment dollars into a high risk venture which will not begin to generate returns for three to six years. If the venture is successful, investors are looking at a five to twenty fold Return on Investment (ROI) over the production life of the Stavatti product
http://www.stavatti.com/INVESTOR_RELATIONS.html

PS: Not actual financial advice, do NOT send Stavatti your credit card number or any other monies.
 

AeroFranz

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The world's headquarters of Stavatti Heavy industries are probably in his mom's basement...
 

Just call me Ray

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Stavatti investors must be willing to place investment dollars into a high risk venture which will not begin to generate returns for three to six years. If the venture is successful, investors are looking at a five to twenty fold Return on Investment (ROI) over the production life of the Stavatti product

...lolwut?
 

Abraham Gubler

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AeroFranz said:
The world's headquarters of Stavatti Heavy industries are probably in his mom's basement...
The guy is probably quite wealthy. Stavatti have received plenty of publicity and there is – unfortunately – no shortage of people looking for a way to ‘make’ more than 5-10% returns on investment and without the knowledge base to determine that the company is a sham.

Since they offer tenders to various Government open RFTs they can legally claim to be trying to grow a business. Sure their tenders have as much chance as being selected as I would if I was to drop a crayon drawing of a plane by a three year old into the tender submission box. Their overheads would be minimal – just enough to keep the paperwork flowing – and the rest that gets invested would be profit in the form of director’s fees and executive salaries, etc.

Unforuntely this is a way that many people conduct business. But as the old saying goes “you can’t scam an honest person”… as long as there are people out there wanting a big bucks return there will be grifters ready to relieve them of their cash.
 

Just call me Ray

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Abraham Gubler said:
Unforuntely this is a way that many people conduct business. But as the old saying goes “you can’t scam an honest person”… as long as there are people out there wanting a big bucks return there will be grifters ready to relieve them of their cash.
There are many legitimate reasons for wanting a quick and large return of cash and it's actually a logical reaction on the surface, but yes, the vast majority of these people do not put a lot of actual thought into it.
 

Triton

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On August 28, 2009, Stavatti Aerospace, a division of Stavatti Heavy Industries, Ltd., submitted two responses to the Light Attack/Armed Reconnaissance (LAAR) Capability Request for Information (CRFI). The two responses were submitted to Charles Vanderberg, Program Manager for ASC/XRS at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, OH. The two conceptual aircraft submitted were the SM-27T two-seat turboprop Machete aircraft and the SM-27L two-seat turbofan Machete aircraft.

There has been much discussion concerning Stavatti Aerospace and their aircraft designs in other topics of this forum, and discussion of Stavatti aircraft concepts on other websites. Therefore, I believed that a topic should be started to discuss their designs. Since there has also been discussion concerning whether Stavatti Aerospace is a credible manufacturer of aircraft and munitions, I created this topic in the "Theoretical and Speculative Projects" section rather than the "Post War Aircraft Projects" section.

Stavatti has created a series of advertisements comparing the SM-27T Machete to other LAAR aircraft such as the Embraer ATX-29 Tucano, Hawker Beechcraft Lockheed Martin AT-6B Texan II, and the North American Rockwell OV-10A Bronco at: http://www.stavatti.com/STAVATTI_ADVERTISEMENTS.html

Source: http://www.stavatti.com/INDEX.html
 

hesham

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Hi,

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1952.msg16687/highlight,sm-27.html#msg16687
 

yasotay

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Aw Lawdy! :D

These guys must believe in the old V.I. Lenin maxim "If you say something long enough it will come true."

OK if it wasn't Mr. Lenin, it was one of those guys.
 

Triton

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If someone were to actually license these designs from Stavatti Aerospace for manufacture, would the SM-27T Machete or the SM-27L Machete be credible LAAR aircraft?
 
J

joncarrfarrelly

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Triton said:
If someone were to actually license these designs from Stavatti Aerospace for manufacture, would the SM-27T Machete or the SM-27L Machete be credible LAAR aircraft?
There are no designs to license, these things are elaborate fan-boy Flightsim vaporware.
 

yasotay

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joncarrfarrelly said:
Triton said:
If someone were to actually license these designs from Stavatti Aerospace for manufacture, would the SM-27T Machete or the SM-27L Machete be credible LAAR aircraft?
There are no designs to license, these things are elaborate fan-boy Flightsim vaporware.
Or worse a means to get at peoples investment money.
 

Matej

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Lets conclude that all Stavatti stuff is only a fan art and it is not needed to post all the stuff here. ...unless some of them will materialize, but I highly doubt about that.
 

flateric

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Rutan had built dozens more flying designs while telling a thousand less words than Beskar had written till I saw their site for the first time back in '97. Gosh, they at least would start with flying model of Stalma or something...keyword I only see for years is 'will'
 

Matej

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Not necessarily. It should stay here so everybody can read that this is only a fake (and the same stuff wont be reposted once again sometime in the future).
 

Tophe

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??? oh, I thought (and I loved) this section of the forum as being dedicated to speculative projects/concepts, not fully industrial machines. That is wonderful (for me and a few other visitors), if you dislike these pictures and data, maybe you could simply focus on the postwar sub-part. ;) No?
 

Orionblamblam

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Tophe said:
??? oh, I thought (and I loved) this section of the forum as being dedicated to speculative projects/concepts, not fully industrial machines.
There's a difference between "theoretical and specualtive" and "fraudulent." There is considerable suspicion that these concept fall into the latter category.
 

Abraham Gubler

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The problem a lot of people have with Stavatti is that while its designs are fiction they promote themselves as legitimate. While its pretty harmless when from time to time various defence journalists look like fools when they take Stavatti seriously it isn’t so harmless for ‘mom and pop’ investors who hand over thousands of dollars to this company expecting a big return when USAF buys 1,000 Stavatti fighters only to find out later they have no return and their investment ‘coupons’ are worthless.

Personally I don’t think they should even be here in the ‘speculative’ section. As it helps promote their company to potential dupes. Save this forum for the various concepts developed to varying degrees of engineering reality but all in good faith.

I think Triton should have known better to post this here but I guess he’s just working out his OCD for constant posting of images.
 

Tophe

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All right, maybe this would be better in the sub-part "Alternative History and Future Speculation". Or on the what-if board, I agree. But let it be somewhere for smiling dreamers ;)
 

Abraham Gubler

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Tophe said:
All right, maybe this would be better in the sub-part "Alternative History and Future Speculation". Or on the what-if board, I agree. But let it be somewhere for smiling dreamers ;)
Tophe do you get the point? It’s not about 'what if' or 'smiling dreamers' this is a company that exploits such beliefs to make an undeserved income. They present themselves as a legitimate technology start up and only stay out of jail by sending off tender responses to all and sundry while staying below a level of technical activity that requires actual certification. No doubt in all their dealings with investors there is plenty enough disclaimers and the like to keep them free of fraud prosecutions. But there is no chance on this earth or the next that they will ever, ever build an aircraft. Because even if they managed to raise the capital to do so and decided to spend it on more than executive salaries their staff lack the technical competency to do anything more than create nice pictures.
 

Triton

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It was my intention to discuss the designs that Stavatti Aerospace has created and whether the aircraft as designed were potentially credible for the mission for which they were promoted. The company promotes themselves as legitimate and they are responding to government CRFIs such as the Light Attack/Armed Reconnaissance (LAAR).

If they are duping defense and other journalists with their hoaxes and articles are being written in Weblogs, magazines etc. there must be something about their designs that set them apart from the other fictional scribblings and fan art found on the Internet. What is it about them that fools so many people that they are not dismissed immediately as fictitious? Since they are fooling these people and responding to CRFIs, then I believe that their designs are worthy of mention and discussion.

The assertion that discussing these designs helps to promote the company to potential dupes is asinine. If "mom and pop" investors are going to invest thousands of dollars expecting higher returns based on discussions in this forum then more fool them.
 
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joncarrfarrelly

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Stavatti claim, through their own "Press Releases" to have responded to CRFIs, however on the wonderful web anyone can claim anything
and not have to back it up.

FFS just reading the 'specifications' of their wonder machines sets off the alarm bells, never mind their prototype and production timelines.

Here is their only 'real' product, models for the X-Plane flightsim.
http://www.stavatti.com/MACHETE_XPLANE.html
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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So long as its clear that they are pipedreams, I am inclined to leave them here.
 

Abraham Gubler

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Anyone can respond to an RFI. You can, I can. Your RFI response may be rubbish and get binned by the procurers straight away but you can still do it. It’s not a claim to legitimacy though it is presented as one by Stavetti. As to what sets them apart from other fictional scribbling it is good faith. Go visit whatifmodellers.com and you don’t find people there claiming their model kit bashes are the solution for the next big contract. They are doing it for enjoyment and clearly marking their work as art.

However Stavetti are producing their designs with the intent of making money. Of encouraging people to invest in their firm. If Northrop, Boeing or Lockheed were to draw up an aircraft based entirely on its aesthetics and with no application of legitimate engineering and promote it widely to encourage investment (with appropriate disclaimers to avoid a fraud charge) they would be suspended form the stock exchange and all that entails. Which is why Stavetti could never be publicly listed even though if they were legitimate they would be trying to do that as it’s the only realistic way they could raise the capital to actually build an aircraft and have any remote chance of finding a customer. No stock exchange would touch them.

They can operate legally because they stay below the threshold that requires any technical certification and they load all their commercial activity with disclaimers absolving themselves of actually providing any return. But they certainly aren’t ethical and no amount of cool looking CGI is going to be worth it enough for me to turn a blind eye to that.
 

Triton

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A discussion concerning a company and its aircract concepts is not an endorsement of the company, its business practices, or its designs. I never claimed that the Stavatti Aerospace division, Stavatti Heavy Industries, Ltd., or any other division or legal entity derived from Stavatti Heavy Industries, Ltd. was a credible, or legitimate, supplier of aircraft or munitions. I also never claimed that Stavatti's response to CRFIs made them a credible, or legitimate, supplier of aircraft or munitions. Nor do I believe that discussion is acceptance or an endorsement of the company's ethical and/or business practices.

Documentation concerning Stavatti concepts, written by Christopher Beskar himself or ghost written for him, do appear in PDF format on the Defense Technology Information Center (DTIC) web site. Stavatti's Machete was mentioned in an article on the LAAR program at the Association of the Air Force web site and the Danger Zone blog on Wired.com has had two articles concerning the Stavatti Machete.

This press discussion and documentation sets their concepts apart from "fan art" and fictional aircraft designs created by artists.

I believe that it was appropriate for me to create a topic concerning these designs in the "Theoretical and Speculative Projects" section of this forum according to the rules outlined by Overscan. I don't understand why I should be attacked personally for doing so.
 

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Some are angry and blame you, others are pleased and thank you. Some are focused on dollars, others prefer dreams. This is human life, society... :)
 

Abraham Gubler

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Tophe you entirely miss the point and stray into open insult. Stavetti isn’t a dream, it’s a nightmare. It’s using aerospace technology to exploit people. You and Triton are either immensely naive in this regard or lack a basic level of ethics. There are many scams out there like Stavetti and all them claim differing levels of legitimacy as part of their scam.

If Stavetti and co. were truly legitimate they would be seeking start up capital from the stock market or commercial partners rather than trying to keep all their investment relationships strictly private. That they are willing to offer $30,000 letters of intent to supply GA aircraft and have never flown anything or have any production facilities is also indicative of their dubious status and ethics.
 

Tophe

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Yes I am a naive dreamer. Put Stavatti staff in jail if you want, I don't care, but I (childishly) like their art. As a voter, I consider capitalist exploitation very principle not being ethic, but we are not here to discuss politics... ;D
 

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Abraham Gubler said:
You and Triton are either immensely naive in this regard or lack a basic level of ethics.
Okay, that accusation I don't get ???

As for "naive"? - well, no-one here seems to claim that Stavatti is anything other than some neat graphics on a website. "Naive" would be if you actually believed any of it was real.

As for "lacking a basic level of ethics"? No question that the originators of Stavatti fall under this heading, if they are using their designs to scam money from people. But do we, by extension, become morally deficient if we discuss the creations (valid or otherwise) of people with low or nonexistent ethics? If so, this would immediately exclude any discussion of, e.g., designs from WWII-era Germany, certainly those designs produced using slave labour, wouldn't it?

Just my 2 eurocents worth.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 
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