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FX Competition (F-15 alternatives)

hesham

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in this competition, the main contenders were:-

1-Boeing model -----?
2-Northamerican-Rockwell NR-349
3-Vought V-483.
4-lockheed CL- -----?
5-Grumman G-300.
6-General Dynamics model -----?
7-Fairchild-Hiller (Republic division) model ----?
8-McDonnell-Douglas F-15 model ----?
can anyone identify the unknown contenders ?.
 

hesham

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I am sorry,and I will correct my fault.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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FX Studies

April 1965 - FX studies begin. Air Force Systems Command studies end up recommending a 60,000lb VG design with air-air and air-ground capability.

December 1965 - RFP issued to 13 companies for concept formulation for a TSA (Tactical Support Aircraft)

March 1966 - 8 bids recieved. All were VG designs except Northrop. Boeing, North American Rockwell, Lockheed awarded contracts. Vought (V-483), McDonnell-Douglas (Model 199), Grumman (G-300?), Northrop make unsuccessful bids. McDonnell-Douglas carries on in-house studies on Model 199 from April to December 1966 without funding, as does Grumman. Rockwell work on a primary VG design and a second, higher risk blended fixed wing design, which seems to promise to make VG unnecessary. A closely related fixed wing design (NR-323) was submitted to the VFX competition, despite having little chance of succeeding, perhaps to gain experience for the FX program.

Air Force were unimpressed with all three designs from chosen contractors.

USAF runs its own Concept Formulation Study from Autumn 1966 to Autumn 1968. John Boyd contributes a series of tradeoff studies and in early 1967 arrives at the 40,000lb, manouvreable "Blue Bird" concept.

August 1967 - RFP for a Fighter, Experimental (FX) concept formulation sent to 7 contractors. Thanks to John Boyd, a more manouverable 40,000lb plane was envisaged. McDonnell-Douglas and General Dynamics issued contracts. North American, Lockheed, Fairchild-Hiller and Grumman all participated using company funds. Grumman's FX studies included Model G-399.

Ran through to May 1968.

General Dynamics recommended both fixed and variable geometry designs, while McDonnell-Douglas recommended fixed wing, two engines, single crew.

May 1968 – concept definition agreed. RFP for FX contract definition issued to McDonnell-Douglas, North American, Grumman, General Dynamics, Lockheed, LTV, Fairchild-Hiller, Boeing.

August 1968 – Only 4 serious bids were received; North American (NR-335), McDonnell-Douglas (Model 199B), Fairchild-Hiller and General Dynamics. General Dynamics was eliminated, and contracts were awarded to the remaining three. F-15 designation was reserved for FX winner. Rockwell's wing design had more than 8,000 hours of wind tunnel testing behind it.

October 1968 – participants asked to consider Navy adaptability.

From July to December 1969 ASD (Aeronautical Systems Division) evaluated the three proposals. McDonnell-Douglas was announced the winner December 23, 1969.
 

hesham

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Thank you dear Overscan very much,please help us in A-6 Competitors.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I have some good illustrations of Fairchild, Grumman and General Dynamics FX designs to post tonight and an additional one of the Rockwell design.
 

Pioneer

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Bring them on 'Overscan'!

Regards
Pioneer
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Sources:

Tony Buttler, 'Steps to the Big League' Air Enthusiast (highly recommended)
Joshua Stoff, The Thunder Factory Arms & Armour Press, 1990
James Perry Stevenson, McDonnell-Douglas F-15 Eagle Aero Publishers 1978
Jeff Ethell, Modern Combat Aircraft 12: F-15 Eagle Ian Allan 1981
Mark A. Lorell & Hugh P. Levaux, The Cutting Edge - A Half Century of U.S. Fighter Aircraft R&D Rand 1998
Michael J Gething, Modern Fighting Aircraft 1: F-15 Eagle Salamander 1983
Dennis R. Jenkins Warbirdtech 09: F-15 Eagle Speciality Press 1997
Dennis R. Jenkins F-15 Eagle Aerofax 1998
Unknown Internet sources
 

Sundog

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Hey Overscan,
Have you ever seen a 3-View drawing of that VG GD submission? That looks awesome!
 

elmayerle

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overscan said:
Grumman Model 399

Hmm, now that one looks like a F-15 cockpit blended with a F-14 would make a good start. If the inlets are 2-D inlets (like the F-14's) and under the LERX, it likely would have superb high-AOA performance.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Sundog said:
Hey Overscan,
Have you ever seen a 3-View drawing of that VG GD submission? That looks awesome!

I downloaded the picture from the net - I had photocopied it from Air International in black and white and then discovered it online in colour. I don't have any more information.
 

Golfus

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Those designs are really impressive "could have been". Has anyone 3-view drawings, especially of the NAA - Rockwell proposal?. The available drawing is of very poor quality.
Thanks in advance.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Small snippet of info.

Northrop declined to bid for FX because they didn't believe they had a chance of winning a major non-export order, so they teamed with Rockwell on their bid. If Rockwell had won, Northrop would have been the major subcontractor.
 

Archibald

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You like whatif ? try this one !
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum/index.php?s=16a62e67a2dc71a2766ebffcc72f3506&
;D
 

Deino

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hesham said:
in this competition, the main contenders were:-

...
5-Grumman G-300.
...

Does anyone have a picture or drawing of that Grumman study ... later on "only" model-399 is depicted ??

Thanks in advance, Deino :)
 

KJ_Lesnick

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Was that picture of the GD F-X design the final proposal or just one of them? Why did they go with swing-wings -- carrier landings weren't essential?

KJ
 

flateric

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KJ_Lesnick said:
Why did they go with swing-wings -- carrier landings weren't essential?

KJ

Why does Tornado use VG wings? Why does Su-24 and MiG-23/27? Going and reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing-wing
No more off-topic here.
 

KJ_Lesnick

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I'm confused about the 40,000 lb weight requirement, was that maximum takeoff weight? Or was that combat weight?

From what I remember the F-15A weighed 44,000 lbs at combat weight and 56,000 at maximum takeoff.


Kendra Lesnick
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Note that this patent, having some similarity to the General Dynamics VG FX configuration, is mentioned as being a continuation in part of an abandoned 1971 patent application, so despite being from 1976, could be of interest.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=jZE7AAAAEBAJ&pg=PA2&dq=3,942,746&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1_1#PPA1,M1
 

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NilsD

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How are those rocker ramp exhausts supposed to function with afterburning?
 

Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

I scanned this image from the Greater St. Louis Aviation Museum collection at the same time as the artwork. It appears to be a test run of a exhaust deflector similar to what is shown in the first two artworks at the top of the page - the delta shaped wing and brown/green camo. Looks like a crude (compared to today's 2D & 3D nozzles) to deflect the exhaust plume for added pitch control. Comments?

I can see it now - the crew chief calling the pilot and telling him it's time to land - the steaks are ready to throw on the deflector "grill" ;D

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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The designs shown in Mark's artwork is the so-called "twin-throat" exhaust, this was studied extensively during the F-15 program. It offered the promise of substantial reductions in interference drag over conventional nozzles. A double wedge was mounted horizontally across the exhaust duct, thereby providing "twin-throats" for each nozzle. It was also adaptable to thrust vectoring control and reversal, although this was not an F-15 requirement. Wind tunnel tests suggested the drag reduction was real, but penalties in weight, possible difficulties with cooling, and above all technical risk, stopped further consideration.

More info in

Richard E. Martens F-15 NOZZLE/AFTERBODY INTEGRATION (AIAA 74-1100)
http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=45882
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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So working from this topic and American Secret Projects we have many, many FX designs identified.

The following are still mysteries:

Boeing : FX studies made, no designation known
Lockheed: CL-979 (early) and CL-1000 (later)
Vought: V-483
Northrop: FX studies made, no designation known

Anyone got anything? Yes, I know, I'm never satisfied :)
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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overscan said:
So working from this topic and American Secret Projects we have many, many FX designs identified.

The following are still mysteries:

Boeing : FX studies made, no designation known
Lockheed: CL-979 (early) and CL-1000 (later)
Vought: V-483
Northrop: FX studies made, no designation known

Answering my own question - it seems Northrop didn't study VFX or FX that seriously; they had agreed to be major subcontractors to North American Aviation in the event of a win in either competition.
 

Triton

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Does anyone know how, or why, the name Eagle was chosen for the McDonnell Douglas F-15? Were there other names suggested for the aircraft?
 

F-14D

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Triton said:
Does anyone know how, or why, the name Eagle was chosen for the McDonnell Douglas F-15?
<snip>

PR. no doubt
 

Colonial-Marine

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Did any of MDD's mockups show their design armed with the AIM-82, AIM-95 Agile, or AIM-97 Seekbat?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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NASA LFAX 4 and LFAX 8 wind tunnel models.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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mithril said:
question. did Fairchild ever do art of a twin tailed version of the FX proposal Pioneer posted?

There are shots of an earlier VG configuration with twin tails in Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects: Fighters and Interceptors 1945-1978.
 

Stargazer2006

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Fairchild Republic's and North American Rockwell's FX proposals are now pretty well documented... But what of Grumman's G-300 and G-399?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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G-399 was their FX design. Tony Buttler has photos of models of the G-399-42 and G-399-45 variants in American Secret Projects.

Grumman did not really bother with an FX submission as they had already won the F-14 contact and there was zero chance of getting the FX contract as well. The only real FX contender remaining to be documented is the General Dynamics one.

Hillaker was opinionated and rebellious. One of the starting points of the F-16 was when Hillaker was dispatched by the bosses at Fort Worth to try to sell the Air Force their F-X contender - a competitor to the F-15. The new design had a swing wing, not so much because it made sense but because the high sheriffs thought that if it didn't, it would reflect poorly on the then-controversial F-111. After a less-than-enthusiastic hearing from the USAF, Hillaker was close to quitting - but then got the assignment to design a lightweight fighter prototype, quite possibly because someone at a high level knew damn well that it didn't stand a chance.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogscript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:5b01fa0e-b93b-4edd-938a-a3cb0835b3eb

There are two possible General Dynamics designs - a model depicted in American Secret Projects with conventional front fuselage and F-15 style inlets and this one posted in page 1 of this topic with blunt LERX like the earliest F-16 configurations. I think this is the final configuration, due to its similarity to early LWF work at GD:



This FX-404 configuration is almost a fixed wing version of it...

 

Mark Nankivil

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Greetings All -

Very nice!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTREMELY-RARE-1969-FAIRCHILD-REPUBLIC-FX-F-15-LARGE-CUSTOM-MODEL-/170818500426?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c593774a

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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