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Future Combat Air System (FCAS)

galgot

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TomcatViP

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lol
Billion of French taxpayer hard gained € spent on something 10% better than a M2K... What a bargain! Add to that the crystallization of the french Esprit critique among decision makers and this might be the first aerospace program that make us fly backward!

So, no it didn't work "that well".
 

galgot

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TomcatViP said:
lol
Billion of French taxpayer hard gained € spent on something 10% better than a M2K... What a bargain! Add to that the crystallization of the french Esprit critique among decision makers and this might be the first aerospace program that make us fly backward!

So, no it didn't work "that well".
I’m asking to the original poster Kitty… If he cares responding.
You, definitively you should consider applying for lordship :
https://www.lordtitles.co.uk
here, cheap…
 

TomcatViP

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Kitty... ??? What a joke coming from someone that is probably a skinny 50lb 5ft tall alpha male.

If you can't cope with different opinions... don't join a forum. This is getting freaky.
 

galgot

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You've sent me pm (was a good laugh, thanks btw) asking me to forget you, and now you respond to my post with your usual brightness... Though you know my love for you... THIS is freaky :D
 

Foo Fighter

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I have yet to see a project of any kind, involving the french, that went anywhere worth going. Dumbed down cheapened products for huge amounts of outlay, not much of it french. Personally I would leave them to develop their own products and do likewise. It would be cheaper and we would have a better product at the end.
 

Deltafan

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TomcatViP said:
something 10% better than a M2K...
With so much tons of evidence and facts, what a complex, elaborate and credible analysis... ::)

And don't forget the masochistic Egyptians, Indians and Qataris who ordered too (for billions € too) a plane 10% better than the M2K they already have too... ::)
 

galgot

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And had France not done this selfish silliness rafalish thing, we would have had a beautifully designed fighter like the Typhoon, and would have had to order the all mighty F-35 later as a striker and for the carrier... Oh god, how stupid we are, it would certainly have been oh so much cheaper..
 

Deltafan

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Foo Fighter said:
I have yet to see a project of any kind, involving the french, that went anywhere worth going. Dumbed down cheapened products for huge amounts of outlay, not much of it french. Personally I would leave them to develop their own products and do likewise. It would be cheaper and we would have a better product at the end.
-In 2010, the French National Audit Office said that the Rafale program has increased by 16.5% since the beginning of the program
https://www.lesechos.fr/10/04/2015/lesechos.fr/0204293660236_le-rafale-en-cinq-questions.htm
(translation of the relevant sentence) : "These figures show that the unit price increased by 16.5% compared to the original estimate of 1988)

-In 2011, the British National Audit Office said that the EF program has increased by 75% since the beginning of the program
https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/1011755.pdf

For better product or not It would be too long to bring here tons of anglo-saxonians articles which say since 30 years that the EF is better and tons of french articles which say since 30 years that the Rafale is better.

Good night ;)
 

Deltafan

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galgot said:
And had France not done this selfish silliness rafalish thing, we would have had a beautifully designed fighter like the Typhoon, and would have had to order the all mighty F-35 later as a striker and for the carrier... Oh god, how stupid we are, it would certainly have been much cheaper..
and Blair even mentioned for a while the possibility of a navalized EF (one of the reasons for the disagreement between the countries of the EF consortium with France when the program had to be common ;) )

Well, maybe if everyone agrees that the builders and the users of the EF are satisfied and that the builder and users of the Rafale are also satisfied, it would avoid unnecessary discussions that lead to nothing, since everyone will remain anyway on his opinion ;)

And for NGF and Tempest II, they have around 22 years to success or collapse. It may be better to judge at this time what has worked or not (even if, if they succeed, the builders and users of everyone will say that theirs is the best ;D )
 

red admiral

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galgot said:
It didn't worked out well ? how so ?
I don't remember Dassault leading a European partnership for a new fighter last time that produced more than double the number of aircraft.

If Rafale worked out so for Dassault and France well last time, why are they pushing for a multinational approach this time around?
 

kaiserd

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red admiral said:
galgot said:
It didn't worked out well ? how so ?
I don't remember Dassault leading a European partnership for a new fighter last time that produced more than double the number of aircraft.

If Rafale worked out so for Dassault and France well last time, why are they pushing for a multinational approach this time around?
By the same logic why would the UK now be undertaking a “solo run” re: whatever will emerge from “Project Tempest” when their last sole successful solo combat aircraft development was the first generation Harrier approx. 50 years ago and even that followed a string of failed “solo” developments with their international cooperation combat aircraft projects having a far better track record of success.

In the current context France & Dassault appear to see the merits of staying in the combat aircraft game going forward by teaming with Germany (principally) and Airbus.

While the UK and BaE are in contrast left investing in technology to demonstrate usefulness to potential partners while hopping/ praying they can build partnerships they realistically need for such a project to go anywhere in the future.
Mainly because of the “B” word....
 

galgot

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red admiral said:
galgot said:
It didn't worked out well ? how so ?
I don't remember Dassault leading a European partnership for a new fighter last time that produced more than double the number of aircraft.

If Rafale worked out so for Dassault and France well last time, why are they pushing for a multinational approach this time around?
You can't remember that because it never happened. Dassault never "leaded" a European partnership for a new fighter. So there is no way you know how it would have turned out… The point wasn't to be in a Euro fighter program at all cost, it was to be in it at terms they would be sure it would have been profitable to them, and to keep their knowhow in fighter planes. If these conditions weren't there, why be in?
And even more, if the plane that was to be build wasn't the one their principal customer (France) wanted.

They are pushing now for a multinational approach because, (a) they know a next gen fighter will be too expensive for a single country to finance, (b) they agree with it as long as they have the lead on the airframe design (as agreed by Fr/Gr govs so far), (c) and it's been agreed (so far) that the aircraft spec requirements will be defined only by the two starting project countries (Fr/Gr), which is at least better than having 5/6 countries asking what they want.

As far as Rafale, Dassault is very happy (and making lots €€) with it, and AdlA and Marine are delighted.
Just as Bae is happy with Typhoon, and RAF/RN are delighted with their Typhoon and F-35s…
 

red admiral

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I find some of the views expressed here bizarre.

Dassault uber alles!
 

galgot

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As you like… I myself find bizarre that you think it didn’t worked out well for Dassault, when they are still in the fighter business and selling planes. And the AdlA/Marine have the plane they wanted and needed.

(Dassault (Marcel) being originally named Bloch and deported, the "uber alles!" is a nice touch… ??? ...)
 

Antonio

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Please try to avoid going personal. FCAS could end as a conflictive topic if we put the focus in European Aerospace Industry rivalry only.
 

_Del_

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I know politics made the split mostly inevitable, but I cannot help but imagine that both sides would have ultimately been happier with a joint product. The cost savings on development alone would be a bundle. Smaller workshare is offset by a larger program/production run. Which would have helped drop unit price for exports outside of the consortium, leading to possibly even more sales.
I have no dog in the fight. I sort of prefer the Rafale approach, but the Tiff is probably better suited to the UK requirements. Hard not to imagine that both parties could have been content, if not elated, about a compromise design, especially in light of the financial savings.
I don't think there is enough money/demand to support two healthy and independent 5/6-gen strike fighter programs out of Europe again. It's hard to believe neither "side" sees this.
 

Foo Fighter

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Considering the 'potential' savings from scale economics, it would make sense for a europe wide collaboration but frankly put, something always gets in the way. This creates a situation where US companies gain the advantage and sales. Very sad.
 

galgot

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Indeed. The problem are not much the Euro manufacturers, Bae, Dassault, Saab, you name it. They are working for their best interests and it’s understandable, it’s the business.
They have almost as many manufacturers in The US, that are also working each for their own interests, only there they deal with ONE very rich admin, where in Europe the Euro manufacturers have to deal with xx admins with less and less money demanding different things… So I wouldn’t put the blame on X company against Y company.
 

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Rafale has been a well executed program in many ways, given PCW budget constraints (nuclear vs. conventional) and force structure: the smaller PCW air force had a very young fleet because the older F1s, IVs &c were retired, leaving a lot of very young M2Ks, but the Aeronavale could only stretch the F-8 so far. Hence the slow delivery starting with the very basic F1 standard; F2 and F3 arrived pretty much according to the late-90s schedule.

I can't blame Dassault in the least for not wanting to see a repetition of the Panavia/Eurofighter political problems. With four parliamentary democracies involved, it's almost inevitable that one or more will be in the throes or aftermath of an election whenever a decision has to be taken on a production tranche or upgrade investment, and while at present everyone is united against the Pootster there is no guarantee that this will prevail over the time taken to develop a major military capability.
 

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Agree with those saying France got the aircraft they wanted and are very satisfied and the U.K. got the aircraft we wanted and are very satisfied. Both the tiffy and rafale are beautiful, amazingly capable aircraft that all of Europe ought to be proud of. For the next generation if a compromise can be worked that meets the requirements of all national air forces and aviation industrial survival or preferably success then let’s go for a common type. If these goals are best met by having two competing projects then go that way. I think the main effort from everyone ought to be put towards making our governments realise European nations are spending nowhere near enough on defence and that is going to come back to really hurt us in many, many ways. The current head in sand thinking by our leaders has to be addressed and stopped as very soon it will be too late. Imo the best way to ensure future success for all our industries is to force governments to start taking our defence seriously. This would probably also help with increased cooperation as there might then be enough to go round for everyone to make getting together and making something genuinely worldbeating viable.
 

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Eurodrone:Airbus, Dassault, Leonardo agree on a performance set [in French] :
(translated via ggl)
ministre, on avait été pourtant très ferme en indiquant que le ministère resterait "attentif à ce que le besoin militaire français soit respecté, que les performances opérationnelles soient au moins supérieures et égales à ce qu'on peut trouver sur le marché américain aujourd'hui, et, enfin que prix soit juste et raisonnable". Il n'était pas question à l'époque de développer un programme qui serait "moins bon que ce qu'on pourrait trouver sur étagère sur le marché américain", soulignait un proche du dossier.

Des négociations sur le prix
En revanche, les industriels et la France ne sont pas encore parvenus à toper sur le prix. "Le montant financier n'y est pas encore tout à fait", note-t-on au ministère des Armées. L'Hôtel de Brienne tient également à obtenir de la part des industriels des "assurances" pour que le programme ne dérape pas en termes de prix, de performances et sur le plan calendaire lors de son exécution. Pour ce faire, il souhaite "un management étroit du programme" pour ne pas avoir de mauvaise surprise à l'arrivée, à l'image du programme A400M. "On en est loin", estime-t-on au sein du ministère des Armées.
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[French DoD said they had] been very firm in indicating that the ministry would remain "attentive to ensuring that the French military need is met, that the operational performances are at least superior and equal to what we can find on the American market today , and, finally, that the price is fair and reasonable ". There was no question at the time of developing a program that would be "worse than what you would find on the shelf on the American market", underlined a close to the file.

Price negotiations
On the other hand, industrialists and France have not yet managed to top the price. "The financial amount is not yet quite there," said the Ministry of the Armed Forces. The Hôtel de Brienne [DoD offices] is also keen to obtain "insurance" from the manufacturers so that the program does not slip in terms of price, performance and schedule when it is carried out. To do this, he wants "firm management of the program" so as not to have any unpleasant surprises on arrival, like the A400M program. "We are far from it", estimates one within the ministry for the Armies.
 
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TomcatViP

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Also, rarely voiced sharp criticism in the French press aimed at managerial deficit among French aerospace industry leaders:

C'est un ancien cadre dirigeant d’un grand groupe aéronautique français qui se livre. "Les entreprises du secteur peinent à sortir de ce qu’elles savent faire depuis plus de cinquante ans. Ils innovent excellemment de manière incrémentale, mais tuent dans l’œuf tout changement de paradigmes. Les avions commerciaux n’ont d’ailleurs pas beaucoup évolué depuis un demi-siècle." Parti pour un autre secteur, il regrette le manque de culture de l’expérimentation, le poids hiérarchique et l’absence de lâcher prise managériale qui lestent l’aéronautique. S’il constate que les mentalités ont évolué sous l’impulsion du digital, des freins culturels doivent encore être levés pour innover autrement. "C’est une question de survie. J’ai vu des industriels français disparaître. À, ce moment-là, j’ai compris qu’il fallait que les grands acteurs quittent au plus vite leurs postures conservatrices et arrogantes."

Des propos d’une actualité brûlante alors que cette industrie plus que centenaire subit la plus grave crise de son histoire. En anesthésiant le trafic aérien, l’épidémie de Covid-19 va durablement plomber le secteur, menaçant la survie même d’un certain nombre d’acteurs. L’aéronautique semble être à un moment charnière de son histoire : acceptation sociétale, enjeux environnementaux et désormais sanitaires, déploiement des services, connectivité à bord, valorisation des données de vol, nouvelles architectures, digitalisation à tous crins, concurrence internationale accrue… "Il faut s’enlever de l’esprit que nous sommes les rois du monde. Le contexte pousse plus que jamais à la disruption", assène Olivier Leclerc
----------------------------------------

A former executive of a large French aeronautical group (named below) : "Companies in the sector are struggling to get out of what they have been able to do for more than fifty years. They innovate excellently in an incremental manner, but kill any change in paradigms in the bud. Commercial aircraft do not have much evolved over half a century. " Having left for another sector, he regretted the lack of culture of experimentation, the hierarchical weight and the absence of letting go of management which weighed down aeronautics. If he finds that mentalities have evolved under the impulse of digital, cultural barriers must still be removed to innovate otherwise. "It's a question of survival. I saw French industrialists disappear. At that time, I understood that the big actors had to leave their conservative and arrogant postures as quickly as possible."

These words are very topical as this more than 100-year-old industry suffers the most serious crisis in its history. By anaesthetizing air traffic, the Covid-19 epidemic will permanently plague the sector, threatening the very survival of a number of actors. Aeronautics seems to be at a turning point in its history: societal acceptance, environmental and henceforth health challenges, deployment of services, on-board connectivity, enhancement of flight data, new architectures, digitalization at all costs, increased international competition… "We must get out of the spirit that we are the kings of the world. The context is pushing disruption more than ever ", asserts Olivier Leclerc
Wonder if he will be harassed by the Sonic brigades.

 
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TomcatViP

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As a side note, and on a lighter tone, if as rumored Russia really cancelled her effort with the Su-57, the FCAS partners might then better buy the project to save time and get an airframe that excels aerodynamically instead of starting from scratch...
 
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Saber

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As a side note, and on a lighter tone, if as rumored Russia really cancelled her effort with the Su-57, the FCAS partners might then better buy the project to save time and get an airframe that excelled aerodynamically instead of starting from scratch...
How many times has this bullshit been repeated? Also no European country will be buying anything defense related from Russia at all, they don't have the same CAATSA umbrella like India, and to an extent, Turkey.
 

red admiral

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Hood

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For a programme not entering service for another 10-15 years I would hope to see not
at least superior and equal to what we can find on the American market today
but at least superior and equal to what we can find on the American market tomorrow. All this means is that they can build an F-35 ready for use in 15 years time, well you can buy an F-35 today and save the waiting.
 

Deltafan

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Also, rarely voiced sharp criticism in the French press aimed at managerial deficit among French aerospace industry leaders:
Why an article about European Civilian Aviation on the topic of a canceled Military jet drone ?
 

Deltafan

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For a programme not entering service for another 10-15 years I would hope to see not
at least superior and equal to what we can find on the American market today
but at least superior and equal to what we can find on the American market tomorrow. All this means is that they can build an F-35 ready for use in 15 years time, well you can buy an F-35 today and save the waiting.
This part of the article is not about the SCAF jet fighter project, but on the propeller Eurodrone MALE program...
 
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Deltafan

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As a side note, and on a lighter tone, if as rumored Russia really cancelled her effort with the Su-57, the FCAS partners might then better buy the project to save time and get an airframe that excels aerodynamically instead of starting from scratch...
To buy a Su-57 if it's stopped, like Japanese made when they copied the canceled aerodynamically excellent Douglas the DC-4E ? Good humor, for sure ! ^_^
 

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Context. It's not like the teams involved aren't part of what we focus on this thread.

But I guess you could have figured that by yourself.
 

TomcatViP

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As a side note, and on a lighter tone, if as rumored Russia really cancelled her effort with the Su-57, the FCAS partners might then better buy the project to save time and get an airframe that excels aerodynamically instead of starting from scratch...
To buy a Su-57 if it's stopped, like Japanese made when they copied the canceled aerodynamically excellent Douglas the DC-4E ? Good humor, for sure ! ^_^
Not a Su-57. It's written in plain: the project.
Thank for the time lost.
 

Hood

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This part of the article is not about the SCAF jet fighter project, but on the propeller Eurodrone MALE program...
Apologies, I was led astray by the poster's misinformation. Having read the article in question it obviously has nothing do with SCAF at all.
I don't see any context to SCAF here, separate design teams and technologies. It's like basing an assessment on Dassault's abilities on the state of its business jet production line or inferring Safran's abilities to develop the SCAF's engines from the Silvercrest saga - its just misleading.
 

Deltafan

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As a side note, and on a lighter tone, if as rumored Russia really cancelled her effort with the Su-57, the FCAS partners might then better buy the project to save time and get an airframe that excels aerodynamically instead of starting from scratch...
To buy a Su-57 if it's stopped, like Japanese made when they copied the canceled aerodynamically excellent Douglas the DC-4E ? Good humor, for sure ! ^_^
Not a Su-57. It's written in plain: the project.
Thank for the time lost.
Thanks. I Don't change my opinion.
 

Deltafan

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Context. It's not like the teams involved aren't part of what we focus on this thread.
But I guess you could have figured that by yourself.
This part of the article is not about the SCAF jet fighter project, but on the propeller Eurodrone MALE program...
Apologies, I was led astray by the poster's misinformation. Having read the article in question it obviously has nothing do with SCAF at all.
I don't see any context to SCAF here, separate design teams and technologies. It's like basing an assessment on Dassault's abilities on the state of its business jet production line or inferring Safran's abilities to develop the SCAF's engines from the Silvercrest saga - its just misleading.
Thanks Hood. I fully agree with you.
 
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TomcatViP

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@Hood :Misinformation?! Do you feel OK insulting people? I don't being, in case you wonder :mad:

For your govern the author is going after cultural & managerial behavior and to our knowledge, there are no segregated business management (civil/Mil) in French aerospace.
So, I think you should weight better your words before...
 
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