• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Future Combat Air System (FCAS)

Arjen

It's turtles all the way down
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,667
Reaction score
425
Dassault merged with bought Breguet in 1971. Jaguar and Alpha Jet may have started under the Breguet banner, but first flight and production were very much a concern for the merged company Dassault-Breguet (since renamed Dassault Aviation).
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
3,889
Reaction score
1,488
Nope, while the Jaguar was a Breguet design, the TA-501 was a Dassault design, teamed with Dornier.

Wow, the anti - Dassault feelings are quite annoying (to stay polite). Nearly as much as hated as De Gaulle ::)
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
3,889
Reaction score
1,488
Arjen said:
Dassault merged with bought Breguet in 1971. Jaguar and Alpha Jet may have started under the Breguet banner, but first flight and production were very much a concern for the merged company Dassault-Breguet (since renamed Dassault Aviation).
While Dassault somewhat dropped the Jaguar under a bus for their own F-1, the Alpha Jet did not suffered such fate and was in continuous development until the late 80's.
 

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
It would make a lot of sense tbh. As we have dicussed earlier, the RAF doesn't need an unmanned F35, but the French do.

Might I ask if there is any more information on this tender you mentioned?
 

red admiral

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 16, 2006
Messages
609
Reaction score
68
Archibald said:
Nope, while the Jaguar was a Breguet design, the TA-501 was a Dassault design, teamed with Dornier.
No, TA501 was developed from Breguet 126 and the Dornier 375 before Dassault and Breguet merged. The design work was pretty much done prior to Dassault joining. On all other projects, Dassault has insisted on total design leadership, regardless of whether it is best placed to do so or not. This isn't hate, simply an observation of Dassault's continued culture of independence which isn't conducive to successful partnering. Reports seem to indicate Airbus is experiencing the same joy in their FR-GER future fighter study e.g.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/airbus-dassault-vie-for-leadership-of-franco-german-fighter-idUSKBN1D31W0
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,790
Reaction score
1,072
Flight have finally reported on the Industry Day on 13th March, which JFC Fuller highlighted above.
The "Team Tempest" formed to submit a bid includes BAE Systems, Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls-Royce. So it involves everyone across the UK industry. The aim seems to be to follow on from Taranis but also as a development alongside the Anglo-French FCAS. I wonder how much of the work done on MAGMA will feed into this?

I still can't help thinking this is just another funding drip feed to keep the industry doing something. How radically different is it likely to be from Taranis or is this just a cut-price FCAS in case the latter programme goes nowhere?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/team-tempest-pursues-ucas-demonstrator-deal-447301/
 

bobbymike

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
10,083
Reaction score
1,144
http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/fighter-jet-will-reinvigorate-stunted-european-defense-industry?utm_rid=CPEN1000000230026&utm_campaign=14674&utm_medium=email&elq2=dfca9c966e4a432c917585957b09888e

Heralding a new era of European multinational defense programs, Airbus and Dassault Aviation are putting aside years of fierce competition to work side by side on the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), while France will take the lead in platform development.

The fighter is the flagship in a wave of new cooperative programs European governments hope to use to strengthen their resolve against a resurgent and increasingly aggressive Russia, as well as to halt the tide of European cash flowing into U.S. coffers for new armaments.
 

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
997
Reaction score
329
bobbymike said:
http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/fighter-jet-will-reinvigorate-stunted-european-defense-industry?utm_rid=CPEN1000000230026&utm_campaign=14674&utm_medium=email&elq2=dfca9c966e4a432c917585957b09888e

Heralding a new era of European multinational defense programs, Airbus and Dassault Aviation are putting aside years of fierce competition to work side by side on the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), while France will take the lead in platform development.

The fighter is the flagship in a wave of new cooperative programs European governments hope to use to strengthen their resolve against a resurgent and increasingly aggressive Russia, as well as to halt the tide of European cash flowing into U.S. coffers for new armaments.
Yes,

But there is a little problem. There are now two Future Combat Air Systems : the (dead ?) programme of the British-French UCAV (That Britain wanted finally to be only UAV) in this topic and the new programme of the French-German manned fighter (and its system of systems), with its own topic in the link.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,29201.135.html
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,790
Reaction score
1,072
Maybe to differentiate between the projects we should identify the new Franco-German fighter under the French acronym SCAF (Système de combat aérien du futur européen)?
 

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
....and hopefully we will get something more concrete on FCAS in the coming weeks.

We could however be facing the prospect of the programme having run its entire length with virtually no comment on it by the UK team!
 

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
997
Reaction score
329
Interview of the French Defense Minister in the French Weekly Aerospace Magazine Air & Cosmos :

"Le projet FCAS est en cours de réorientation. Au départ, nous avions l'ambition de faire un drone de combat. Nos alliés britanniques souhaitent faire évoluer le projet vers un drone de surveillance. Pour pouvoir concilier les deux approches, nous sommes en train de travailler à la définition de briques technologiques qui nous permettront de nourrir en même temps ces deux orientations."

We can understand that the project is not dead and that as France and UK have to build one demonstrator each, the current work consists in determining technical solutions allowing the building of a British UAV* and a French UCAV on the same basis (and no more a British UCAV and a French UCAV on the same basis).


*For the British demonstrator, maybe ISR or ISTAR are better words than UAV.
 

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
Great stuff, some genuine news thanks.
https://www.defensenews.com/unmanned/2018/05/11/britain-flip-flops-toward-isr-drone-but-france-keeps-eye-on-combat-capability/

Britain flip-flops toward ISR drone, but France keeps eye on combat capability
By: Pierre Tran   May 11

The U.K. has expressed interest in an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance UAV over a combat-capable drone. (VanderWolf-Images/Getty Images)
PARIS ― An Anglo-French project for a combat drone demonstrator is switching tracks, as Britain is now more interested in pursuing a surveillance UAV, according to French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly.

“The FCAS project is undergoing a reorientation,“ she said in an interview with weekly magazine Air & Cosmos, published May 11. “Our British allies would like to steer the project toward a surveillance drone.“

London and Paris, in a bid to pool their interest in respectively surveillance and combat drones, are working on “definition of the technology packages, which would allow us to feed into these two streams at the same time,“ she said.

France and the U.K. had planned to pursue a €2 billion (U.S. $2.4 billion) project to design and build a technology demonstrator for a combat drone, dubbed Future Combat Air System Demonstration Program, or FCAS DP. But the lack of announcement of a program launch at the Anglo-French summit in January was seen by French industry as a rethink on the British side.

France, however, has continued interest in building an unmanned combat air vehicle.

Despite the U.K.’s interest in an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance UAV, there was scope for cooperation with France by sharing the technology on the FCAS DP.

The technology packages were a “great opportunity“ that could be used in a broad project to integrate manned and unmanned aircraft into a combined network, dubbed Future System for Air Combat, Parly said.

Germany is the partner for France on the latter, which will be opened up to other European partners, she said. “Certain (countries) have already asked and nothing rules out opening the project up for the United Kingdom if they wish to join,“ she said.

Work on the FCAS DP project is “extremely useful“ for France and the U.K., she added. “This is not about public relations.“

Defense industry analyst Fabrice Wolf is not surprised at the revelation, as Britain will have the stealthy F-35 fighter jet for operations in high-intensity zones, and a UCAV would duplicate the F-35.

For France, and particularly Germany, it is “indispensable“ to have such a UCAV capability, he added. Germany needs a replacement for its Tornado fighter and a planned Franco-German fighter will enter service around 2040.

Time was needed to allow the FCAS DP projects to mature and then be considered for incorporation with a larger European program, Parly said.

The French approach, whether working on the project with Germany or the U.K., was to identify useful and concrete projects, work in close cooperation, build solid foundations, and then open up to other partners, she said, all aimed at building European defense.

A strengthening of ties between Berlin and Paris is seen by the French defense industry as partly due to London’s planned departure next year from the European Union.

Britain worked on its Taranis UCAV demonstrator, which was first flown by prime contractor BAE Systems in Australia in August 2013.

For France, the initial test program for its Neuron UCAV demonstrator began in December 2012 to September 2015, flying in France and partner nations Italy and Sweden. The six nations backing the program are France, Greece, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland, with the former acting as the lead nation.

Dassault Aviation is the Neuron prime contractor, with subcontractors Airbus Defence & Space of Spain, Alenia of Italy, Hellenic Aerospace Industry of Greece, Ruag of Switzerland, and Saab of Sweden.
 

Mike Pryce

BAe P.1216 book: harrier.org.uk/P1216.htm
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,057
Reaction score
134
'Aircrafts' and 'a lot of job'. :eek:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/960897/Brexit-news-Gavin-Williamson-US-American-military-jets-European-aircrafts
 

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
I have noticed that sort of excellent English on their website before.

Does a Super Typhoon make a super ucav more likely or are we looking at cheaper ucav and expensive reconnaissance system?
 

LowObservable

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
2,194
Reaction score
104
The Express story seems to be a complete rip-off from the Torygraph.
 

FighterJock

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
1,466
Reaction score
283
I don't think that turning the Typhoon into a UCAV would make any sense at all, it would be better to design a brand new UCAV from the ground up.
 

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
Don't know if you were replying to me, but I was referencing the idea that the UK buying so many F35s in the future was making it hard for anyone to justify building a big, advanced UCAV with France... and I wondered if a bigger fleet of Typhoon would instead require a more complex UCAV (as the French want to help Rafale) or just a loyal wingman (as they are reportedly looking at now)?
 

FighterJock

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
1,466
Reaction score
283
mrmalaya said:
Don't know if you were replying to me, but I was referencing the idea that the UK buying so many F35s in the future was making it hard for anyone to justify building a big, advanced UCAV with France... and I wondered if a bigger fleet of Typhoon would instead require a more complex UCAV (as the French want to help Rafale) or just a loyal wingman (as they are reportedly looking at now)?
Sorry about that, I forgot to click on the Quote button. :eek: :-[. Anyway I can see your point now and perhaps a slightly less advanced UCAV would do for now and let the technology mature, and the price of the technology to come down so that in the future we can afford to build a big and advanced UCAV.
 

fightingirish

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
2,340
Reaction score
614
In the July 2018 AEROSPACE: The UK mulls sixth gen fighter options, interview with Marillyn Hewson, CEO of Lockheed Martin, airlines face post-Brexit uncertainty and Russia relaunches biplane design.
Source: https://www.aerosociety.com/news/in-the-latest-aerospace-magazine-july-2018/
 

Attachments

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
Does Tempest work for the Japanese too? ;)

Now that the French are offering SCAF membership to the Belgians as part of their efforts to push Rafale on them, I think the writing is on the wall for that particular cross-channel partnership unfortunately...
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
2,008
Reaction score
701
Eurofighter does that too with a similar offer:
General Manager of Airbus Defense and Space (ADS) -Belgium, Eric Lardinois:

"A participation into Scaf program (in English FCAS for "Future Combat Air System") is not solely related to the selection of French Rafale, as suggested by Paris."
Source (in Fr):
http://www.sudinfo.be/id62097/article/2018-06-28/remplacement-des-f-16-lachat-de-typhoon-permettra-aussi-lindustrie-belge-de
 

fightingirish

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
2,340
Reaction score
614
fightingirish said:
In the July 2018 AEROSPACE: The UK mulls sixth gen fighter options, interview with Marillyn Hewson, CEO of Lockheed Martin, airlines face post-Brexit uncertainty and Russia relaunches biplane design.
Source: https://www.aerosociety.com/news/in-the-latest-aerospace-magazine-july-2018/
The article is now online.
Article: https://www.aerosociety.com/news/uk-mulls-sixth-generation-fighter-project/
Twitter with more pictures:
https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1014238654938730496
https://twitter.com/AeroSociety/status/1014087645440430081
That YF-23 version of the FCAS, you see in Twitter, is just fan-art.
See:
https://www.deviantart.com/robcaswell/art/Desert-Bird-198742808
https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/fa-fireghost-stealth-rocket-fighter/76106/
 

Attachments

Flyaway

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
3,886
Reaction score
1,819
UK gives BAE Systems 12-month contract for FCAS work

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-gives-bae-systems-12-month-contract-for-fcas-work-449913/

No details provided as to what the work is.
 

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
A good article that summarises the position well, even if it doesn't have any juicy revelations for us.

There does seem to be more momentum on the domestic UCAV front than the Anglo-French FCAS now though. At least from the UK perspective.

We are in danger of having FCAS-UK, FCAS-DP and FCAS terms in use across Europe.
 

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,000
Reaction score
786
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/article/epawss---new-electronic-warfare-program
https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/bae-systems-mixed-reality-cockpit-technology-aims-to-revolutionise-future-aircraft-----
 

Attachments

FighterJock

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
1,466
Reaction score
283
flateric said:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/article/epawss---new-electronic-warfare-program
https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/bae-systems-mixed-reality-cockpit-technology-aims-to-revolutionise-future-aircraft-----
I wonder if that style of cockpit will ever see the light of day, I would not like to place a bet on it that's for sure.
 

Flyaway

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
3,886
Reaction score
1,819
mrmalaya said:
A good article that summarises the position well, even if it doesn't have any juicy revelations for us.

There does seem to be more momentum on the domestic UCAV front than the Anglo-French FCAS now though. At least from the UK perspective.

We are in danger of having FCAS-UK, FCAS-DP and FCAS terms in use across Europe.
I wonder if the Taranis could be evolved to an active product?
 

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
Well it seems as though the UK has concluded that FCAS (with the French) is not the answer for the loyal wingman concept they are now actively pursuing and that is treads on the F35's toes too much. The RAF would rather have more F35s than risk a significant cut in numbers because of a still undefined FCAS UCAV.

It is supposed to continue for now, and the UK are thinking more of a sensor craft than deep-strike role apparently.

I think we will see a domestic UCAV to fly alongside Typhoon and the F35 - which has some pretty significant export potential in my view.
 

Mike Pryce

BAe P.1216 book: harrier.org.uk/P1216.htm
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,057
Reaction score
134
Some images off Twitter from BAE Warton media day.

Pointy wing tips (stalling) and tailplanes that seem to attach by magic indicate this is just for PR.
 

Attachments

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-holds-discussions-with-sweden-over-fighter-collaboration/

But we actually need to see what SAAB and BAE can design between them!
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,790
Reaction score
1,072
Seems odd that BAE Systems aren't trying to get onto the Franco-German programme, but then BAE always did have a stake in Gripen so it makes sense to pursue the SAAB option.

Given the financial and technical issues that contracted the desires of the European nations to just three European platforms in the 1980s, it seems unlikely that the vastly increased R&D costs and the smaller export markets can sustain two, let alone three European programmes. I feel sure that the nations will coalesce as time goes on into the early 2020s if their different requirements can be met.

I don't feel the Turkish programme really counts, I have a feeling its going to be a lot like the K-FX with cool stealthy looks but decidedly 4.5th generation capabilities. Useful fill-in fighters and useful industrial and political tools but not at the cutting edge by any means.
 

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
Here is a paper showing a bit more of what BAE might have up their sleeves:



https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_432748_en.pdf

Including more detail on how that adaptable airframe might work (with a hint as to why those tailfins appear to be stuck on as an afterthought on the newly released BAE concept image).
 

Attachments

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
636
Reaction score
250
Harrier said:
Some images off Twitter from BAE Warton media day.

Pointy wing tips (stalling) and tailplanes that seem to attach by magic indicate this is just for PR.
I really hope that model was a case of some execs 13 year old son messing around in blender and not a professional modeller.
 

Mike Pryce

BAe P.1216 book: harrier.org.uk/P1216.htm
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,057
Reaction score
134
A sketch from @RAeSTimR on Twitter, at today's media day at Warton.

Optional manning discussed.
 

Attachments

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,000
Reaction score
786
https://twitter.com/GripenNews/status/1014787393612926977
 

Attachments

Flyaway

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
3,886
Reaction score
1,819
Hood said:
Seems odd that BAE Systems aren't trying to get onto the Franco-German programme, but then BAE always did have a stake in Gripen so it makes sense to pursue the SAAB option.

Given the financial and technical issues that contracted the desires of the European nations to just three European platforms in the 1980s, it seems unlikely that the vastly increased R&D costs and the smaller export markets can sustain two, let alone three European programmes. I feel sure that the nations will coalesce as time goes on into the early 2020s if their different requirements can be met.

I don't feel the Turkish programme really counts, I have a feeling its going to be a lot like the K-FX with cool stealthy looks but decidedly 4.5th generation capabilities. Useful fill-in fighters and useful industrial and political tools but not at the cutting edge by any means.
That will be down to Brexit & the sour relations it has engendered with European nations.
 

Foo Fighter

I came, I saw, I drank some tea (and had a bun).
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,461
Reaction score
462
Not just the Europeans, we are not too happy about things either.
 
Top