Japan's FS-X (Fighter Support-Experimental) Program

Glad to be of help.

In relation to my previous post, perhaps I should have said instead "that the two companies had at least an informal partnership before the latter was parachuted into the competition".
 
Thanks Gray. You are beginner of this topic. I am studying and posting.
Thanks owner for your appreciation. ;)
 
A question has occurred to me; Where were the Germans, especially Dornier, during the saga that was FSX?
 
Grey Havoc said:
A question has occurred to me; Where were the Germans, especially Dornier, during the saga that was FSX?


An odd question -FS-X is pretty well documented. Dornier had no relevant product to offer the Japanese unless you are thinking about the Northrop/Dornier ND-102 which was a "paper design".

Germany via Panavia were offering Tornado, which made sense for the declared specs.

Tornado was short-listed alongside F-16 and F-18 for off-the-shelf licensed purchase. None met the spec completely and were rejected.Japan favoured developing an indigenous fighter (Mitsubishi), but were eventually persuaded to a joint development with the US of the F-16 by intense political pressure. In a valiant rearguard action, they shoehorned on enough indigenous equipment to make FS-X very uneconomic.
 
Indeed it was the ND-102 design I was thinking of in particular, since it had only been shelved in 1984 or thereabouts.

index.php

(h/t FrankM)
 
Matej said:
Original FS-X was an early Eurofighter like with two vertical tails, but it was too ambitious and too expensive. Than japanese government decided to modify existing aircraft (F-15, F-16, F/A-18 and Tornado were considered). For example SX-3 looks like F-16CCV and FX-4 like two engined F-16. Deino posted F/A-18 derivate.

My first picture shows Mitsubishi F-1X proposal and second is probably the source of a lot of japanese YF-23 what ifs - scaled down test model for self recovery flight control system from JDA TRDI.

This will be my new web update but as usual - I dont have enoug time to finish it :-\

I finally found a few more images of that FI-X wind-tunnel model ! ;)
 

Attachments

  • Japan FI-X wt-model - 1.jpg
    Japan FI-X wt-model - 1.jpg
    35.7 KB · Views: 699
  • Japan FI-X wt-model - 8.jpg
    Japan FI-X wt-model - 8.jpg
    28.3 KB · Views: 468
  • Japan FI-X wt-model - 7.jpg
    Japan FI-X wt-model - 7.jpg
    25.1 KB · Views: 422
  • Japan FI-X wt-model - 6.jpg
    Japan FI-X wt-model - 6.jpg
    32.3 KB · Views: 454
  • Japan FI-X wt-model - 5.jpg
    Japan FI-X wt-model - 5.jpg
    37.4 KB · Views: 466
  • Japan FI-X wt-model - 4.jpg
    Japan FI-X wt-model - 4.jpg
    28.5 KB · Views: 469
  • Japan FI-X wt-model - 3.jpg
    Japan FI-X wt-model - 3.jpg
    44.2 KB · Views: 520
  • Japan FI-X wt-model - 2.jpg
    Japan FI-X wt-model - 2.jpg
    39.8 KB · Views: 641
...
 

Attachments

  • MHI FS-X-1.jpg
    MHI FS-X-1.jpg
    243.1 KB · Views: 845
  • MHI FS-X.jpg
    MHI FS-X.jpg
    18.6 KB · Views: 820
Politically, what is the US view of Japan going ahead with this indigenous fighter programme? Remember the US DoD attempts in the late 80s to derail, undermine & prevent the Japanese from developing their own A/C.
Stumbled across this interesting read: http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/2007/MR612.2part2.pdf
Situation is now very different, what do think is the latest US view of these developments?
 
Some F-16J information from a General Dynamics brochure.
 

Attachments

  • 16J.jpg
    16J.jpg
    1,018.5 KB · Views: 433
  • 16J 1.jpg
    16J 1.jpg
    577.5 KB · Views: 496
  • 16J 2.jpg
    16J 2.jpg
    965.6 KB · Views: 523
  • 16J 3.jpg
    16J 3.jpg
    564.7 KB · Views: 472
  • 16J 4.jpg
    16J 4.jpg
    673.5 KB · Views: 410
I Found this reference (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...sig=ACfU3U0kRNw7lk6hG57DBWJ-OT0FuWbKBA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizr_m7pqjlAhUiQUEAHSOWD0AQ6AEwCnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=p-xl%20indigenous%20maritime%20patrol%20aircraft&f=false) whilst looking into the P-XL. According to the extract of the book ( Troubled Partnership: A History of US - Japan Collaboration on the FS-X Fighter) the intial basis of the Hi-no-maru or Rising Sun fighter was to be of a single seat twin-engined canard configuration with twin-canted stabilizing fins. It was to feature indigenous control systems, probably developed from those under test on the F-1CCV

I attach the GA of this 1985 design from the TRDI

Hinomaru or Rising Sun Fighter of 1980s GA.jpg
 

There is a pretty interesting photo on that linked page. The side view of the A6M with the following text: "堀越二郎氏自筆零戦"

According to a web translator that is a drawing made by Jiro himself. Can you verify that this translation is correct? And is there anything written on the drawing that gives an indication of year?

The carb/oil cooler on the bottom of the cowling is unlike any A6M I am aware of. If this is an original period drawing it may depict one of the early proto/pre-production zeros.
 
Your attention is wonderful. It is true that this drawing is a plan of zero fighter of the handwriting of Jiro Horikoshi engineer.:oops:
Unfortunately I have no more information about this drawing.
 
There is a very interesting report from a person who visited the ATLA (formerly TRDI) Aeronautical Equipment Laboratory. A wind tunnel test model similar to (or the same as) this FS-X scale model (commonly called "五社案=Five company plans") currently in MHI's archive room is still stored in the aeronautical equipment laboratory data room. And there was evidence that the model actually did a wind tunnel test. Possibly, it is possible that the CFD images may be based on a test using an actual wind tunnel model rather than just a computational model on a computer.
Unfortunately the documentation at the time of development seems to have been destroyed ... I hope it will be public someday.

 
Last edited:
A model I bought that reflects the final design! It was from Mitsubishi I assume it was some kind of meeting room model. I included a picture of the box and an info sheet that came with it, all in Japanese.
 

Attachments

  • D43A4E18-C55A-4AB9-AF5C-6F6B0B59B599.jpeg
    D43A4E18-C55A-4AB9-AF5C-6F6B0B59B599.jpeg
    1.8 MB · Views: 276
  • CC23182E-8218-4539-8057-5572BBD09568.jpeg
    CC23182E-8218-4539-8057-5572BBD09568.jpeg
    1.3 MB · Views: 202
  • 95A21C54-A877-44DE-97B6-5520F86A4296.jpeg
    95A21C54-A877-44DE-97B6-5520F86A4296.jpeg
    1.4 MB · Views: 165
  • 89309C34-AF7D-43D8-A632-9854C0CA66C9.jpeg
    89309C34-AF7D-43D8-A632-9854C0CA66C9.jpeg
    2 MB · Views: 171
  • FBC47A8A-F70E-4C35-B539-F17B09F73C2D.jpeg
    FBC47A8A-F70E-4C35-B539-F17B09F73C2D.jpeg
    1.9 MB · Views: 177
  • 720DF008-D7E7-4D19-8444-0EADCA9B9A1C.jpeg
    720DF008-D7E7-4D19-8444-0EADCA9B9A1C.jpeg
    2 MB · Views: 188
  • 74ADC681-AA6C-4A5E-8793-218CADCE6F4E.jpeg
    74ADC681-AA6C-4A5E-8793-218CADCE6F4E.jpeg
    1.9 MB · Views: 224
A8CD62F7-F060-42D4-A769-2048F0633093.png
1988 Japanese Defense Agency showing the Sx-3 based FS-X as of that date. Note the changed radome (The J/APG-1 precursor was test flow on a modified C-1 in 1986, MELCO APA) and extended fuselage plug were part of Japan’s requirements to general dynamics from the start, besides the Agile Falcon modifications. Note a three piece canopy was also present from the start, as Support Fighter is Japanese defense speak for attack. The LCD screens and other cockpit modifications were planned from the get go as were the four indigenous avionics systems (Radar, IRS, IEWS, Mission computer). The bigger wing would be developed in Japan as domestic composites were a big reason for the project to begin with. it was hoped to be used by the USAF and NATO partners to upgrade their F-16 to the Agile Falcon, this fell through do to requirements changing over time but I’ll do a write up in the Agile Falcon another time. The basis of the Plane was a Block 40/42 and you could argue till about 1990 when just about every part was redesigned it was a very modified F-16 Block 40. It was however always intended to us either a PW-229 or GE-129. I’ve heard that Japan learned a lot about PW engines with the F-15J and wanted to learn what GE had to offer, but personally I think the GE engines are just better for F-16s and better for low altitudes that the F-2 would be most of the time.
 
AWST may 9th 1989

What an illustration of the SX-3 Upgrade!

I found out from Jwings military aircraft of the world F-2 this aircraft would have been called F-16 Kai by the JASDF. No word if it would have been F-16J but I think it’s likely based on the F-15J and F-4EJ.
 

Attachments

  • A5B838ED-D41E-441B-A618-EBEC3B534842.png
    A5B838ED-D41E-441B-A618-EBEC3B534842.png
    1.3 MB · Views: 163
Lots of pictures for the f-18 and f-16 proposals, unfortunately it seems we have lost the pictures for the f-15 proposals, if anyone could re upload the that would be appreciated.
 
Lots of pictures for the f-18 and f-16 proposals, unfortunately it seems we have lost the pictures for the f-15 proposals, if anyone could re upload the that would be appreciated.
CjC I believe the F-15 proposals were proposed F-15J or F-15E with avionics modifications. I don’t think they should be noticeably different externally to a regular F-15 unless I’m mistaken. The same goes for the F-16XL.
 
Details about co-cured main wing used in the F-2 (exerpt from "XF-2 co-cured composite main-wing structure development"). The co-cured composite main-wing technology and the transfer thereof was a core point of discussion during the US-Japan negotiations. More details could be found in "Troubled Partnership", a great literature on the matter. According to the Code One Magazine article, composites account to 55% of F-2's main-wing weight. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any other sources that mentions the figure apart from said article. If it's true, I guess the titanium structures of the wing roots are just that heavier compared to composite structures.

fsx 1.png fsx 2.png
 
Domestic FS-X cockpit configuration. A physical mock up of this was built in the mid 80s but I’ve yet to come across a photo.

AWST allegedly SX-3 cockpit demonstrator was authorized. Again no picture or confirmation.
 

Attachments

  • FE89D3A8-B104-4F24-AC01-4A7B902A5CD2.jpeg
    FE89D3A8-B104-4F24-AC01-4A7B902A5CD2.jpeg
    77.8 KB · Views: 150
  • CBE6EF81-5AB0-42BB-900B-4BFBF1A4C556.jpeg
    CBE6EF81-5AB0-42BB-900B-4BFBF1A4C556.jpeg
    393.7 KB · Views: 147
Back
Top Bottom